A male perspective on miscarriage

_Whimsical_

I listened to this podcast a few days ago and I found it beautifully expressed and very moving. It's an article written by a man, Prof David Hlavsa, about his wife's miscarriage of their first child. I don't think I've ever heard a male perspective before on it and I realised that it's just crazy that this happens all the time and the man's experience is pretty much always erased.
I thought I'd share it as it might resonate with someone here. Even if you've no experience it's worth a listen, I've none and it's definitely stayed with me.

It was initially an article but was also recently read aloud in podcast form in the NY Times Modern Love podcast series. It got a huge reaction on both occasions it was released.
There's a link to both here : http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/fashion/first-son-stillborn-husband-wife.html

I recommend listening over reading as it's beautifully read, only 20 mins too and there's an update at the end of the podcast too.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

H3llR4iser

Yep, the "hidden pain" is something I've witnessed first hand.

My mom miscarried before I was born - I believe about 3 months in. She's always been very open about it, at least since the age I could understand the concept and elaborate it.

My dad never, ever mentioned the event once. Not even by mistake, and the rare times the subject was brought into discussion (usually by my late maternal grandmother, the most cartoonishly, inappropriately "filter-less" person I've ever known), he always pretended not to be listening, to focus on the newspaper / TV / Whatever he was doing; I've known him 36 years, I'm a man myself, and I know full well that's the way he (and most of us really) try to hide away from something that bothers him deeply.

silverbolt

a partner of mine had a ectopic pregnancy and no one, not one asked me how i was. Fair enough it was my partner that had the failed pregnancy but it was my kid too.

It's not the popular wisdom these days but at the end of the day as far as I'm concerned it's tough luck. It's worse for the woman, grin and bear it for her if that's what she needs, talk about it when she wants to.

0byme75341jo28

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the popular wisdom these days but at the end of the day as far as I'm concerned it's tough luck. It's worse for the woman, grin and bear it for her if that's what she needs, talk about it when she wants to.

So because it's worse for the woman, a man should simply bottle up his feelings about one of the most tragic, unfortunate things that can ever happen to you? That really is terrible advice.

Ares Agreeable Cobra

Ares Agreeable Cobra wrote: »

So because it's worse for the woman, a man should simply bottle up his feelings about one of the most tragic, unfortunate things that can ever happen to you? That really is terrible advice.

Yup, that's what I said.

_Whimsical_

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the popular wisdom these days but at the end of the day as far as I'm concerned it's tough luck. It's worse for the woman, grin and bear it for her if that's what she needs, talk about it when she wants to.

Actually I think a lot of women in a relationship would like to share the pain of it with a partner, would like to know that they also feel the loss of something important too. It would probably be helpful for both parties if it was more openly accepted and expressed.
Imagine if you lose someone, even lose a deeply held shared dream or vision for the future for you and your partner's whole life and then your partner says "oh well it was your thing but it's over now, sorry about that and all,there there love". I think you'd want someone to feel it with you in those cases. You want to say "oh this hurts" and have someone say "I know, it hurts so much".

I think that there are some men who don't relate to the idea of an early pregnancy being a baby as easily as a woman does, that's understandable I guess.
In the podcast the pregnancy is later, around 5-6 months, their baby is dead in the womb but delivered normally. Both parents are there, both hold him when he arrives. In those situations I think the enormity of the reality,trauma and loss arrives unavoidably into everyone's life there, felt by both people but you never really hear about the man's trauma or loss, alot of men probably don't really feel the right to retell it as their story because it's probably not always well received. It's surely only right that both sides are acknowledged though ? Maybe if you listen to or read the article you'll see it a little differently? I think it illustrates well too that there really is room for both people to feel the pain of it.

dinorebel

silverbolt wrote: »

a partner of mine had a ectopic pregnancy and no one, not one asked me how i was. Fair enough it was my partner that had the failed pregnancy but it was my kid too.

My wife Miscarried what would of been our first child and I had exactly the same reaction from people, still wonder what might of been.

mcgiggles

(I haven't yet listened to the podcast, mainly because I'm at work and it might hit too close to home, but I will listen to it later.)

Its been close to 3 years since I miscarried and its so terrible to say but I actually can't remember if I asked him how he was doing... I'm sitting here racking my brains and I can't remember at all.. I was literally in a fog of grief for at least a year after it happened. My head was so messed up. I can't even remember if we talked about it properly afterwards. I've talked to women about it, and talked about their experiences, unfortunately its more common than people think, more common than I ever thought! But I don't think I ever spoke to their other halves about it... I suppose it just never entered my head, even though I had gone through it myself.. Thank you for this post

EDIT: p.s. sorry for jumping into the "Gentlemens club"

Ares Agreeable Cobra

Ares Agreeable Cobra wrote: »

So because it's worse for the woman, a man should simply bottle up his feelings about one of the most tragic, unfortunate things that can ever happen to you? That really is terrible advice.

That would be general feeling. If instead of miscarriage it was abortion, he will be told it's none of his business.

silverbolt

silverbolt wrote: »

a partner of mine had a ectopic pregnancy and no one, not one asked me how i was. Fair enough it was my partner that had the failed pregnancy but it was my kid too.

Reminds me of that scene in "Peter's Friends" where everyone is explaining to Roger how hard it was for Mary to lose a child and he yells "he was my son too!!"

Letree

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup, that's what I said.

Oh the man hatred is strong with this one

_Whimsical_

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Actually I think a lot of women in a relationship would like to share the pain of it with a partner, would like to know that they also feel the loss of something important too. It would probably be helpful for both parties if it was more openly accepted and expressed.
Imagine if you lose someone, even lose a deeply held shared dream or vision for the future for you and your partner's whole life and then your partner says "oh well it was your thing but it's over now, sorry about that and all,there there love". I think you'd want someone to feel it with you in those cases. You want to say "oh this hurts" and have someone say "I know, it hurts so much".

I think that there are some men who don't relate to the idea of an early pregnancy being a baby as easily as a woman does, that's understandable I guess.
In the podcast the pregnancy is later, around 5-6 months, their baby is dead in the womb but delivered normally. Both parents are there, both hold him when he arrives. In those situations I think the enormity of the reality,trauma and loss arrives unavoidably into everyone's life there, felt by both people but you never really hear about the man's trauma or loss, alot of men probably don't really feel the right to retell it as their story because it's probably not always well received. It's surely only right that both sides are acknowledged though ? Maybe if you listen to or read the article you'll see it a little differently? I think it illustrates well too that there really is room for both people to feel the pain of it.

Kinda coming at it from different angles here I guess. What I'm getting at is that it's basically the man's job to be there for the woman. Whether that's being open or not, talking about it a lot or not, memorialising, whatever, it'll differ from person to person.

MarkR

Yeah, because it's not like the man lost anything, right? FFS

Olishi4

I have never experienced miscarriage but in my experience of grief and grief experienced by those around me, it is usually unique to each person. Not all but most men, I mean in my experience, handled grief in a completely different way to the women in my life.

My husband's grandmother died a couple of years ago and he was very close to her before he moved here but he really didn't want to talk about it. I did try to encourage him but he genuinely didnt want to talk about it and i had to respect that but he knows if he did want to talk about it that he can.

So I suppose it's just important to understand that not everyone handles grief the same but it doesnt mean they are not upset or hurt.

A friend of mine recently had a miscarriage and I asked how her bf was and her natural reaction was "he was great, he was there for me" but I meant how was he. I really felt for both of them. I was concerned for him because he had recently lost his father to suicide after reconnecting with him. From what my friend told me, he was made to feel like he shouldn't have been upset because "he didn't know his father". All this happened in a short space of time so they had a lot to deal with but it seems they handled it well together.

evolving_doors

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Kinda coming at it from different angles here I guess. What I'm getting at is that it's basically the man's job to be there for the woman. Whether that's being open or not, talking about it a lot or not, memorialising, whatever, it'll differ from person to person.

Seems like just one angle here.

D0NNELLY

Such generalisations in this day and age.. next you'll be saying we should man up.. fecksake..


For my part, my sister in law is carrying twins where one isn't expected to make it.. she's 30 weeks in and the smaller is only 2 pound. The doc is saying the weeun will have to be 4 to perform the heart operation she needs..

I'm a big fücker, manly man buttonftw, and i regurarly ball my eyes out for a child I've never met, and who's not even mine, so take your generalisations to ah where you might get the biting you're looking for.

fits

D0NNELLY wrote: »

For my part, my sister in law is carrying twins where one isn't expected to make it.. she's 30 weeks in and the smaller is only 2 pound. The doc is saying the weeun will have to be 4 to perform the heart operation she needs..

.

Thats awful Im carrying twins also and can only imagine how heartbreaking that must be. But fingers crossed for the baby nonetheless.

Have never experienced miscarriage but it really seems to be mostly women who talk about it, or indeed anything to do with pregnancy/babies. In a lot of cases its seen as the woman's realm. I suppose thats why people dont immediately sympathise with the male partner.

Good idea for a thread though, and good to talk about it.

Liam McPoyle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Kinda coming at it from different angles here I guess. What I'm getting at is that it's basically the man's job to be there for the woman. Whether that's being open or not, talking about it a lot or not, memorialising, whatever, it'll differ from person to person.

Just like its the woman's job to do the cooking and cleaning?

This is 2016, not the 1950s.

My wife and I have been unlucky enough to have gone through two losses in the last 12 months or so.

The first one was without a doubt the single most devastating thing I've ever been through.

With the first we went in for the 12 week scan only to be told that there was a problem with the foetus and that the baby was unlikely to make it. We lost it a couple of weeks later.

That day was the hardest I've ever had to go through. We got home after being in the hospital and I literally went to my hands and knees and bawled my eyes out.

All the plans I'd had, all the little daydreams about what our baby and I were going to do together, stupid things like getting them a little Black Sabbath T-shirt, reading them bed time stories, cuddling and consoling them when they fell over, all of that was taken away in the blink of an eye. I was heartbroken for me, I was heartbroken for my wife, for my parents who are absolutely dying to have grandkids.

If I hadn't of gotten it out, between talking and mourning with my wife, seeing a wonderful bereavement counsellor in the Coombe, I honestly don't believe I would have survived it.

The thought that society expected me to remain stoic and basically suck it up never occurred to me.

They were our babies.

They were made up of me just as much as my wife.

Obviously the bond between mother and baby is different due to the physical connection but that does not for one second mean my (or any man that is yearning for kids) pain was any less pointed than my wife's and the expectation that a man should just get on with it is frankly nonsense. My wife herself has commented on numerous occasions that she was glad I was able to open up because I knew exactly how she was feeling.

ED E

Deleted User wrote: »

Kinda coming at it from different angles here I guess. What I'm getting at is that it's basically the man's job to be there for the woman. Whether that's being open or not, talking about it a lot or not, memorialising, whatever, it'll differ from person to person.

Wouldnt like to be your OH, assuming you'd find one.

LegacyUser

My wife and I had had two children before she had a miscarriage. From chatting amongst our friends, it seemed to be quite taboo....as if mentioning it would conspire you to have one.

As the husband, I was quite saddened about it, felt like we had been visited some misfortune that we didn't deserve, having put so much effort and work into making sure our two children were an asset to the world, rather than a liability. But life doesn't work like that. It was just a really sad thing to us both.

Of course my wife still had a lifeless foetus in her body and her body's method of extraction was 8 hours bleeding on a toilet floor. 12 months later she gave birth to our third child at home and without any discomfort.

We've talked about all this but the upshot is we have three beautiful (to us) children. Thankfully my salary meant my wife could stay at home, we would not have had children otherwise.

But that is just the beginning, that is what she always says. A few stitches....easy. Raising three children.....that's real life. That is what being a mother is all about.

eviltwin

I think I get what Button means. Both suffer the loss of the child that might have been but the woman has the additional physical trauma. It's a different kind of loss. Both need support but often miscarriage happens before friends and family know so they may only have each other. It's not a competitive sport though and both need to be there for each other but because of the nature of miscarriage the woman might be affected in a more visceral way.

D0NNELLY

How about that thread title, eh?

Hellrazer

Saul t nutzz.
I'm not going to quote your whole post but that may as well have been my exact post.

We lost ours Christmas week 11 years ago and honestly it was the worst time of my life.

We had been trying for almost 10 years for a second having been told it would never happen and the we found out in November that we were expecting.at the 12 week scan there was no heartbeat. We went from pure elation to sheer sadness in minutes.
Luckily (probably a bad choice of words) we went on to have 3 more.
Christmas is always a reminder of the fact that I should have 5 kids and not 4 especially when we still have a couple this year for Santa.It would have just about been one more.

But as a "man" I don't think you're supposed to show your emotions at a time like this.
You're supposed to be "strong" and there for your partner. But in reality you're feeling the exact same as her.

brightspark

Lost two (odd expression?) over 15 yrs ago now, glad to see some people's attitudes are improving.

I remember going out for a pint with a friend at the time and just sobbing, no idea what others thought of me in that pub.:o

I got really angry when a female journalist columnist hack wrote an article in a Sunday newspaper some years ago claiming that men weren't really grieving after their wives miscarried :rolleyes:

I think I was just one of many who complained at the time.

_Whimsical_

Olishi4 wrote: »

A friend of mine recently had a miscarriage and I asked how her bf was and her natural reaction was "he was great, he was there for me" but I meant how was he. I really felt for both of them. I was concerned for him because he had recently lost his father to suicide after reconnecting with him.

Wow that's alot for anyone to take, poor guy! You're spot on with the reaction to the question of "how is he? " in that situation though.
It is crazy that we expect men to be fully engaged fathers, as they should be and most naturally are, but then sideline them from the role of parent at these kind of times, as if they were token cheer leaders or uninvolved hand holders. I think in these conversations some people lose sight of the fact that a pregnancy is much more than a physical state or a foetus, it's the near fulfilment of life long hopes and dreams, it's the path your future will take drawn out in front of you, a reason for living for the rest of your days, it's the beginning of a deep love you've never known before. That's what women mourn so why wouldn't men do so equally? The physical wounds heal much faster than the emotional ones for women too.
Might be a bit of a leap but I wonder if men were encouraged to and allowed to engage from day one like women are expected to with news of pregnancy would it lead to better relationships and bonds between SOME dads and their kids.

fits

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Might be a bit of a leap but I wonder if men were encouraged to and allowed to engage from day one like women are expected to with news of pregnancy would it lead to better relationships and bonds between SOME dads and their kids.

I think its a bit of a chicken and egg situation though. The presence of male posters in any of the ttc/pregnancy/parenting forums on boards for example is scant. In my own situation any time we are presented with stuff from others husband hands it to me and im like they are yours too you know. Of course physically he is somewhat removed... I dunno.

fits

fits wrote: »

I think its a bit of a chicken and egg situation though. The presence of male posters in any of the ttc/pregnancy/parenting forums on boards for example is scant. In my own situation any time we are presented with stuff from others husband hands it to me and im like they are yours too you know. Of course physically he is somewhat removed... I dunno.

Probably going away from subject of thread somewhat.

Ann22

I've had five losses. I did feel heart sorry for my husband and felt such a dreadful useless failure for letting him down. Family and friends who knew, did sympathise with him and were considerate. He was really sad at the time and disappointed but seemed to brighten up and could get on with his life quite soon afterwards and didn't seem have a lot of tolerance for my low mood in the wks following. He was likeky dealing with it as best he could. I remember shortly after the first and most traumatic loss finding a nice Easter card he bought me that he haven't given me as he was mad with me over something, I can't remember what but it was a minor row possibly being my fault, at those times I was easily upset. I was a ball of emotions and would cry at something minor and he would get mad. I never forgot that sad card sitting in the cupboard to my 'lovely wife' or something similar...He didn't feel I deserved it. Was an awful time. I learned to bottle it all up by the time of the last one. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

brightspark

Ann22 wrote: »

I've had five losses. I did feel heart sorry for my husband and felt such a dreadful useless failure for letting him down. Family and friends who knew, did sympathise with him and were considerate. He was really sad at the time and disappointed but seemed to brighten up and could get on with his life quite soon afterwards and didn't seem have a lot of tolerance for my low mood in the wks following. He was likeky dealing with it as best he could. I remember shortly after the first and most traumatic loss finding a nice Easter card he bought me that he haven't given me as he was mad with me over something, I can't remember what but it was a minor row possibly being my fault, at those times I was easily upset. I was a ball of emotions and would cry at something minor and he would get mad. I never forgot that sad card sitting in the cupboard to my 'lovely wife' or something similar...He didn't feel I deserved it. Was an awful time. I learned to bottle it all up by the time of the last one. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I think my wife also felt that way, probably part of the reason I didn't dwell on my own grief or share it fully with her.

BTW it's also possible that he just forgot the card, I've a few cards stored away that I am planning to use in the unlikely event that I remember I have them when needed.