Motor insurance on 15 year old car with NCT

Redtop

My Toyota Yaris turned 15 years old. It flew through the NCT recently with flying colours. I will probably get another 10 years out of it. However, many Insurance companies are telling me that they will not insure cars over 15 years old and those who will, are increasing the premiums considerably. Apparently, there have been an increase in claims for older cars - not because the cars are unsafe, but because the claims are alleged to be bogus, but it looks like the Insurance companies prefer to pay against these claims and recover the money by increasing premiums for honest drivers. Does anyone have similar experience ? Do you have any recommendations for Insurance companies who will insure a 15 year old car without gouging me ? Thanks

savagethegoat

I suppose a 15 yr old car would be easier to steal which would have an effect

Atlantic Dawn

savagethegoat wrote: »

I suppose a 15 yr old car would be easier to steal which would have an effect

No it would have an immobilizer and because of age and value would be less inclined to be stolen.

Special Circumstances

savagethegoat wrote: »

I suppose a 15 yr old car would be easier to steal which would have an effect

A pushbutton start car is much easier to steal. More modern BMWs for example.

BronsonTB

Both Government & Insurance companies (and car garages) want people to replace their cars within the 15 years.....(It generates more money for both of them)

They don't want people keeping the old cars on the road even if they are fully roadworthy.

Thankfully more Northern Insurance companies are now covering the south & giving people some chance of not being completely ripped off.

We were told, the NCT was brought in to make older cars safer & now they want to illuminate the older cars!

Triangle

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

No it would have an immobilizer and because of age and value would be less inclined to be stolen.

Perhaps older cars don't have the newer safety features that the newer cars do
Perhaps its the fact that people driving older cars do so because they're cheaper and also reduce the costs on tyres and services
Perhaps its the fact that some fraudsters can pickup a cheap car and have an easy 'accident'

There's a lot of potential scenarios out there - I'd start from the position that the Insurance Companies are not turning away business for no reason and maybe they have some stats to back this up.

I have worked in an Insurance company, so do have some knowledge of the workings - and I don't think they are angels and get things right all the time. But they do want business!

Markcheese

At what age does a car become a classic ??
I've always liked audi a2 s , doubt they'll be considered swanky enough to get classic status though...

BronsonTB

Markcheese wrote: »

At what age does a car become a classic ??
I've always liked audi a2 s , doubt they'll be considered swanky enough to get classic status though...

Varies by company but from 15 years onwards (30 for vintage)...just remember for a classic policy you generally do need a separate everyday daily car.

Special Circumstances

Triangle wrote: »

There's a lot of potential scenarios out there - I'd start from the position that the Insurance Companies are not turning away business for no reason and maybe they have some stats to back this up.

They claim to have stats for everything "a citroen c5 diesel is a high performance vehicle sir" ... "electronic engineers are a very high risk occupation 50% loading" .... but nobody is allowed to see these magical stats.

twin_beacon

a 15 year old Yaris (for example) is a cheap car to buy. Whats happening is scammers are buying 2 old cheap legal (with a valid NCT) cars. They are then properly insured. They put 5 people in each car, then stage a crash with the 2 cars. The 10 people in the cars claim they have whiplash, which cant be disproven, so the 10 people walk away with around 15k each from the insurance.

By not insuring older cars, this can't happen. Its a total pain though for the rest of us.

Redtop

Ginger83

BronsonTB wrote: »

Both Government & Insurance companies (and car garages) want people to replace their cars within the 15 years.....(It generates more money for both of them)

They don't want people keeping the old cars on the road even if they are fully roadworthy.

Thankfully more Northern Insurance companies are now covering the south & giving people some chance of not being completely ripped off.

We were told, the NCT was brought in to make older cars safer & now they want to illuminate the older cars!

Could you name a few, mine is getting on a bit too.

Atlantic Dawn

Triangle wrote: »

Perhaps older cars don't have the newer safety features that the newer cars do
Perhaps its the fact that people driving older cars do so because they're cheaper and also reduce the costs on tyres and services
Perhaps its the fact that some fraudsters can pickup a cheap car and have an easy 'accident'

There's a lot of potential scenarios out there - I'd start from the position that the Insurance Companies are not turning away business for no reason and maybe they have some stats to back this up.

I have worked in an Insurance company, so do have some knowledge of the workings - and I don't think they are angels and get things right all the time. But they do want business!

Perhaps older cars don't have the newer safety features that the newer cars do
Some don't but some would have more, for example a Mercedes S Class Mercedes from 2001 would have more safety features than a 2016 Toyota Yaris.

Perhaps its the fact that people driving older cars do so because they're cheaper and also reduce the costs on tyres and services
The older car would be more likely to need more maintenance than a newer car and the annual NCT would pick up more faults than those people who buy a new car and drive it for 4 years without it ever seeing the inside of a garage, yes people do this.

Perhaps its the fact that some fraudsters can pickup a cheap car and have an easy 'accident'
Yes this is possible but they should cover those with a full no claims history.

_Brian

I think this is just another angle for them to extract more money.

If I own a car that turns 15 I'm not suddenly going to start sending in bogus insurance claims. I'm sure they can profile the person taking out the insurance regarding bogus claims.

Surely me being a 44YO father of two, hold two degrees, full time work, own insurance for last 20 years without claim, surely I'm not in the profile to start making bogus claims just because my car which is perfectly legal and I've owned for years, it turns 15 years old.

Special Circumstances

5 x 15 x 2 = 150k
Minus costs for two 15 year old Yarisssss 3k - 5k for cars? Say 145k total.
and insurance ... 3k - 4k?

So rather than 15k, they each get 14+k.

Repeat the example with 9 year old Yarisses, what is the "profit" reduced to here? Enough to dissuade the pro scammers?

Lets go to an extreme, a 1 day old car. 2 x dacia sanderos, 24k bought outright.
150k - 25k say.
OMG - we are reduced to 12.5k profit now. Thats a serious deal breaker isn't it???? (sarcasm)

What if we put down a deposit and bought those Sanderos on PCP or hire purchase?
We would we actually make more money than buying 2 9year old Yarisss outright?

Should they ban insurance for all cars more than a few hours old, or worth less than 50k?

Deliberate crash for cash schemes are NOT a plausible reason.

cantwbr1

While I accept that the scamming outlined above happens the Insurance Companies are not looking at people's insurance history.

I have an 18 year old Astra which I have owned for 12 years. Having never had a claim why should they now assume that I will try and scam them with it.

I'm worried that I will be forced to change it soon even though it's running perfectly and costs almost nothing to run outside of basic servicing

Alanstrainor

Thread moved. Here's my info from August when insuring my 15 year old 325Ci

Alanstrainor wrote: »

27 years old.
2001 BMW 325ci
5000km per annum (if even)
5 years NCB
3 penalty points
Full license 9 years
Living in South County Dublin.

Insurance Co Cover Windscreen Price reason
Axa TPFT Y 935.17
AnPost TPFT Y 791.5
AIG TPFT Y 782.34
First Ireland TPFT 1150
Chill TPFT 2350
FBD NO QUOTE NO QUOTE
AA TPFT 1138
Allianz SITE BROKEN
Aviva NO QUOTE NO QUOTE Car too old
Britton TPFT 1417
SuperValu TPFT Y 791
Zurich NO QUOTE
Sheridan Insurances TPFT N 1386
Liberty NO QUOTE
Ulster Bank NO QUOTE
Top Quote TPFT 1349

AIG ended up being even cheap than the initial quote after calling. 700ish is what I paid. Happy days.

twin_beacon

Special Circumstances wrote: »

5 x 15 x 2 = 150k
Minus costs for two 15 year old Yarisssss 3k - 5k for cars? Say 145k total.
and insurance ... 3k - 4k?

So rather than 15k, they each get 14+k.

Repeat the example with 9 year old Yarisses, what is the "profit" reduced to here? Enough to dissuade the pro scammers?

Lets go to an extreme, a 1 day old car. 2 x dacia sanderos, 24k bought outright.
150k - 25k say.
OMG - we are reduced to 12.5k profit now. Thats a serious deal breaker isn't it???? (sarcasm)

What if we put down a deposit and bought those Sanderos on PCP or hire purchase?
We would we actually make more money than buying 2 9year old Yarisss outright?

Should they ban insurance for all cars more than a few hours old, or worth less than 50k?

Deliberate crash for cash schemes are NOT a plausible reason.

you can use all the sarcasm you want, but its the reason being given by insurance companies. I didn't pull that out of thin air, Conor Faughnan (from the AA) gave that as the reason a few months ago on the last word. I'd link the pod cast, but he is on the last word so much, it would take me hours to find it.

laoisfan

Redtop wrote: »

My Toyota Yaris turned 15 years old. It flew through the NCT recently with flying colours. I will probably get another 10 years out of it. However, many Insurance companies are telling me that they will not insure cars over 15 years old and those who will, are increasing the premiums considerably. Apparently, there have been an increase in claims for older cars - not because the cars are unsafe, but because the claims are alleged to be bogus, but it looks like the Insurance companies prefer to pay against these claims and recover the money by increasing premiums for honest drivers. Does anyone have similar experience ? Do you have any recommendations for Insurance companies who will insure a 15 year old car without gouging me ? Thanks

Back in March I got 3rd party F&T through AXA for a 1998 Nissan Micra 1.0

I'll PM you an email address you can contact somebody in AXA - they may be able to help.

Edit: I use the car mainly in Laois/Tipperary area, mainly as a runaround car for tipping about. Commute to work by train. TPFT was about €423 for the year.

beer enigma

Redtop wrote: »

My Toyota Yaris turned 15 years old. It flew through the NCT recently with flying colours. I will probably get another 10 years out of it. However, many Insurance companies are telling me that they will not insure cars over 15 years old and those who will, are increasing the premiums considerably. Apparently, there have been an increase in claims for older cars - not because the cars are unsafe, but because the claims are alleged to be bogus, but it looks like the Insurance companies prefer to pay against these claims and recover the money by increasing premiums for honest drivers. Does anyone have similar experience ? Do you have any recommendations for Insurance companies who will insure a 15 year old car without gouging me ? Thanks

Mine is also 15 years old and I got a good deal through AIG albeit 16 months ago, but worth a try & very small increase on renewal.

Special Circumstances

twin_beacon wrote: »

you can use all the sarcasm you want, but its the reason being given by insurance companies. I didn't pull that out of thin air, Conor Faughnan (from the AA) gave that as the reason a few months ago on the last word. I'd link the pod cast, but he is on the last word so much, it would take me hours to find it.

123.ie also blame the increase in carjackings. Are you going to take it personally if I say that is statistically insignificant rubbish?

The insurance industry comes out with a lot of varying and sometimes contradictory oul rubbish. Don't blame me if you swallow all of it and parrot it without questioning it!

Musketeer4

Special Circumstances wrote: »

A pushbutton start car is much easier to steal. More modern BMWs for example.

Dead right. Theres been cases where some chancer would lie in wait for someone to park up in a carpark in a pushbutton BMW and as soon as they get out and turn their back the chancer jumps in and starts the car while the fob is still in range and off they go.

People claim more often on old cars so they can get rid of them and make some cash in the process. Ie, they'll be morelikely to "forget" to press the brake if someone pulls out in front of them. They might be very "enthusiastic" in pressing the brakes when they approach an amber light with someone following behind.

couerdelion

It also looks like AIG are now refusing to cover 15-19 year old cars as classics (the policy though First Ireland).

Ringing round yesterday for quotes for a 19 year old bmw and very few companies willing to quote. It's a second car and will probably be parked up until it turns 20.

laoisfan

couerdelion wrote: »

It also looks like AIG are now refusing to cover 15-19 year old cars as classics (the policy though First Ireland).

Ringing round yesterday for quotes for a 19 year old bmw and very few companies willing to quote. It's a second car and will probably be parked up until it turns 20.

Try AXA, got TPFT with them back in March for my 1998 Nissan Micra.

Atlantic Dawn

Special Circumstances wrote: »

123.ie also blame the increase in carjackings. Are you going to take it personally if I say that is statistically insignificant rubbish?

The insurance industry comes out with a lot of varying and sometimes contradictory oul rubbish. Don't blame me if you swallow all of it and parrot it without questioning it!

I'd say in a year there's been not even 10 car jackings in the whole country, they must make this stuff up as they go along.

For the last year there must have been a good 500 plus cars wrote off because of flooding around the country, I recall seeing a car park in Galway flooded a couple of times with cars in it and also apartment blocks and all those who assumed their car had aquatic properties and drove through waist high water. No mention of these cars in any figures touted by the insurance companies.

Special Circumstances

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I'd say in a year there's been not even 10 car jackings in the whole country, they must make this stuff up as they go along.

In insurance maths that becomes "Carjacking and hijacking increased by 75% and vehicle theft increased by 5% for quarter one of 2015 compared to the same period of 2014. - See more at: https://www.123.ie/blog/reasons-for-car-insurance-premium-increase#sthash.K3ty6xS1.dpuf"

den Den DENNNNNNN! Cue dramatic sound effects so that gullible people will know that this is REALLY QUITE DRAMATIC and they should pay up RIGHT NOW WITHOUT QUESTION!!!

Sue Pa Key Pa

_Brian wrote: »

Surely me being a 44YO father of two, hold two degrees, full time work, own insurance for last 20 years without claim, surely I'm not in the profile to start making bogus claims just because my car which is perfectly legal and I've owned for years, it turns 15 years old.

I can assure you that EVERY social class, creed, age and gender is involved in questionable claims, of which there are two types. The accidents which are a set up and the genuine accident where the loss is exaggerated. It would be my experience that the latter is the more prevalent.

Special Circumstances

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

I can assure you that EVERY social class, creed, age and gender is involved in questionable claims, of which there are two types. The accidents which are a set up and the genuine accident where the loss is exaggerated. It would be my experience that the latter is the more prevalent.

Are there any figures available, breaking down the paid out claims 100% legit, pushing it a bit lads, waste of time and money to investigate this, etc?

I suspect there are a lot of "cheaper to pay after a bit of haggling than to investigate if it is dubious or not" at that end of the market. Which is a function of the value of these cars more than anything else.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Are there any figures available, breaking down the paid out claims 100% legit, pushing it a bit lads, waste of time and money to investigate this, etc?
.

If the claim is paid out, it obviously couldn't be proven to be fraud, so therefore it gets classed as a legitimate claim. It has to go in to that column. Anything else and you are opening yourself up to possible litigation.

The only way insurers can deal with these particular type of 'legitimate claims' is to generalise and kick out everyone who displays common traits relating to these losses. The result is the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. Insurers weigh up the numbers of good customers who will be lost against the cost of the few fraudsters who spoil it for everyone

Special Circumstances

Haha I thought I was asking too much alright. I appreciate you doing your best all the same :-) and without any aggression/condescension.

I'd love to see some graphs of payout v plausibility(or suspected exaggeration). Or any graphs/data at all, even if it all had to be pooled by a third party and perhaps some details redacted.

JustMac

Redtop wrote: »

Do you have any recommendations for Insurance companies who will insure a 15 year old car without gouging me ? Thanks

I just insured my 2001 Toyota Corolla with Allianz for €404 with all the extras (Comprehensive, No Claims Bonus Protection, Breakdown Assist, Named Driver Cover (Spouse), €500 excess, etc.) 42 yo male, 9 Years NCB.

I was with 123.ie for a few years but the best they could come up with was €605. Originally they had sent me my document stating 6 years NCB but when I wrote threatening to complain to Financial Ombudsman they emailed me the following day with a letter showing 9 years NCB. This helped bring down my allianz quote considerably.

I did note on the Allianz website that it said that the car couldn't be more than 15 years old. I too am worried about what will happen next year as the car is running fine and practically costing nothing to keep on the road.

laoisfan

JustMac wrote: »

I just insured my 2001 Toyota Corolla with Allianz for €404 with all the extras (Comprehensive, No Claims Bonus Protection, Breakdown Assist, Named Driver Cover (Spouse), €500 excess, etc.) 42 yo male, 9 Years NCB.

I was with 123.ie for a few years but the best they could come up with was €605. Originally they had sent me my document stating 6 years NCB but when I wrote threatening to complain to Financial Ombudsman they emailed me the following day with a letter showing 9 years NCB. This helped bring down my allianz quote considerably.

I did note on the Allianz website that it said that the car couldn't be more than 15 years old. I too am worried about what will happen next year as the car is running fine and practically costing nothing to keep on the road.

How much would a 2001 Toyota Corolla be worth? Just curious as you went comprehensive.

Musketeer4

If you have fully comp can you only claim for the value of the car or can you lob in a personal injury claim too? If you can it makes sense to have comprehensive.

Special Circumstances

Some insurers are/were more expensive if you opt for TPFT - they regard you as a more risky driver if you don't consider your car to be worth claiming for.
Some insurers lump in breakdown/driving other cars/ windscreen plus other stuff with fully comp and aren't all that much more expensive for what you're getting.

Other insurers imply that you are a scammer and a scumbag for driving an older car.

Liam McPoyle

Musketeer4 wrote: »

If you have fully comp can you only claim for the value of the car or can you lob in a personal injury claim too? If you can it makes sense to have comprehensive.

You can't claim for personal injuries from your own policy however most insurers will apply 'medical expenses' cover for the driver on a comprehensive policy. The limits are generally between €500 and €1000.

Personal injuries to passengers will always be covered regardless of the cover on the car itself.

Musketeer4

Nothing stopping someone getting all their buddies into their 94 corolla and planting it in the ditch and then they all can claim off his insurance and each gives him a cut of the payout.

beauf

Its completely random. Asking people in the office who are all of a similar age with similar older cars, the range of premium increases ranges from nothing to doubling it.

Mostly it depends when you renewed. The more recent renewals were all much more expensive.

Speedwell

I can't afford another car. I am a safe middle-aged female driver with a huge NCB, so I can afford the insurance. But I have three choices when my little Yaris turns 15... I can continue to insure it with my existing insurer for whatever price they want as long as they choose to insure it, I can buy a new car for more money than I have, or I can buy an old banger and use it up for two or three years until it too turns 15. I'm don't make very much and my husband is out of work and we have only the one car. I'm just not sure what I'll do.

beauf

I use my car so little if the insurance went up to much in just buy a better bicycle maybe an electric one. Only problem would be losing my no claims. I could always alternate being the main driver on other cars though.

gussieg

Trying to get insurance on a 93 subaru vivio, which only has a 0.6 l engine was impossible. Even though I thought it would be classic as its 23 years old, I was told no, and because it's a Subaru, I was told all Japanese cars were not eligible for classic cover from the 3 companies I contacted by phone, axa, Carole Nash and first Ireland. So good luck getting that 94 corolla covered.

Special Circumstances

gussieg wrote: »

Trying to get insurance on a 93 subaru vivio, which only has a 0.6 l engine was impossible. Even though I thought it would be classic as its 23 years old, I was told no, and because it's a Subaru, I was told all Japanese cars were not eligible for classic cover from the 3 companies I contacted by phone, axa, Carole Nash and first Ireland. So good luck getting that 94 corolla covered.

2018, picture it -
*hello, I'd like to insure a Mazda RX7 as a classic
-We don't regard them as classics and won't insure them.
*Ford focus mk1?
-Sure thing!


LOLs, picture it in twenty years time.

*Hello, I'd like to insure a Nissan Qashqai as a classic.
-Umm, I'm afraid we won't insure japanese cars as classics.
*Really? It has a renault engine and it's built in the uk?
-Well, it still has a japanese name on it sir.
*OK, how about a Renault Kadjar.
-No problem sir!

JustMac

laoisfan wrote: »

How much would a 2001 Toyota Corolla be worth? Just curious as you went comprehensive.

I put it down as €2000 but I presume it would be hard to get half that if I went to sell it.

I went comprehensive as I couldn't get the NCB protection without being comprehensive. It was about €20 extra for comprehensive and €30 for NCB protection. I thought it was worth it.

Special Circumstances

You could go to another crowd and be robbed for the comprehensive versus tpft, or go to yet another crowd and be robbed for tpft versus comp (tbh I'm not sure if this is still a feature of the market, but it was).

And they ALL have stats to back up these policies - funny how they can all magic up whatever stats they want to suit a particular opinion. I'd love to be at a meeting where they discuss these things.

Bandito909

Just tried to insure a 97 Merc, as a main weapon, with a classic policy through First Ireland.

They have changed their criteria, and won't accept certain 15 year old cars for classic.
Basically, you now definitely need to own a main car, and the car needs to be 20 years old.

They were sound to deal with however.

gavman1

Triangle wrote: »

Perhaps older cars don't have the newer safety features that the newer cars do
Perhaps its the fact that people driving older cars do so because they're cheaper and also reduce the costs on tyres and services
Perhaps its the fact that some fraudsters can pickup a cheap car and have an easy 'accident'

There's a lot of potential scenarios out there - I'd start from the position that the Insurance Companies are not turning away business for no reason and maybe they have some stats to back this up.

I have worked in an Insurance company, so do have some knowledge of the workings - and I don't think they are angels and get things right all the time. But they do want business!

Yes they want business but they want no risk business which defeats the whole purpose of insurance. It's akin to health insurance companies only taking young perfectly healthy people and telling them to take a hike when they hit 40.btw there is no proof that older cars are more likely to end up in a claim.thats bull****.i would love to see the stats for that one.i used to work in a breakers yard and I can tell you that even with people just scrapping older cars,the number of cars under 10 years old with accident damage was far greater than that of cars in the 15 yo bracket.

Ginger83

It will just push people who can't afford to change cars to drive uninsured! Our 2nd car is a 2001 micra, 53k miles and flies through nct's,they actually laugh when we bring it in.
Last year f/c was 290, this year 520 was best i could get. Its used for a school run only, we live 1.2mile from school,rural location. So what happens when i can't get it covered? Am i going to scrap a perfectly good car??
Am I f*ck!!!

long_b

98 Starlet insured with RSA. 55k on the clock.

Would like to know more about NI insurance companies, especially if the market here decides to collude to deny insurance to older cars.

gavman1

long_b wrote: »

98 Starlet insured with RSA. 55k on the clock.

Would like to know more about NI insurance companies, especially if the market here decides to collude to deny insurance to older cars.

Me to.its only when your backs again a wall that the loopholes appear lol

laoisfan

Ginger83 wrote: »

It will just push people who can't afford to change cars to drive uninsured! Our 2nd car is a 2001 micra, 53k miles and flies through nct's,they actually laugh when we bring it in.
Last year f/c was 290, this year 520 was best i could get. Its used for a school run only, we live 1.2mile from school,rural location. So what happens when i can't get it covered? Am i going to scrap a perfectly good car??
Am I f*ck!!!

Had taken a car off the road, decided to cycle to the train station instead, 3 miles up the road, rural.

So a year and a half later...decided to get a small car (sick of getting soaked cycling) and approaching 2-year limit at which I lose my NCB.

Got 1998 Nissan Micra 1 litre, 105k on the clock, few months left on the NCT - got TPFT for €423.

alpha13

Triangle wrote: »

Perhaps older cars don't have the newer safety features that the newer cars do
Perhaps its the fact that people driving older cars do so because they're cheaper and also reduce the costs on tyres and services
Perhaps its the fact that some fraudsters can pickup a cheap car and have an easy 'accident'

There's a lot of potential scenarios out there - I'd start from the position that the Insurance Companies are not turning away business for no reason and maybe they have some stats to back this up.

I have worked in an Insurance company, so do have some knowledge of the workings - and I don't think they are angels and get things right all the time. But they do want business!

rubbish... anyone wanting to scam can still do it without an older car needed!!! and you said it yourself..they want buisness..aka MONEY. older cars valued less so no high premium on the car so LESS MONEY made.. a new car with higher value is worth more so more money gotten from policy or from claims that might be put through... again... MONEY!!!
something they WONT get much of for themselves with older cars.. thats why it is happening... dont kid yourself to the contrary!:(

Ginger83

laoisfan wrote: »

Had taken a car off the road, decided to cycle to the train station instead, 3 miles up the road, rural.

So a year and a half later...decided to get a small car (sick of getting soaked cycling) and approaching 2-year limit at which I lose my NCB.

Got 1998 Nissan Micra 1 litre, 105k on the clock, few months left on the NCT - got TPFT for €423.

Hi, who was that with?
A company refusing to insure a car with a valid nct makes a mockery of the whole nct system! why bother with it at all so