Dose Withdraw period

Robson99

Dosed lambs with a fluke dose but at only half the recommended rate ie 4 ml instead of 8ml. The withdrawl period on the Box says 56 days but would this reduce for only giving them 4ml??
If I killed them 40 days after dose would it show up??

rangler1

Robson99 wrote: »

Dosed lambs with a fluke dose but at only half the recommended rate ie 4 ml instead of 8ml. The withdrawl period on the Box says 56 days but would this reduce for only giving them 4ml??
If I killed them 40 days after dose would it show up??

probably not but it'd be a brave person that'd tell you to send them in 40 days,
What's the product.
Also if you record it ''honestly'' in your medicine records, it'd show up on inspection

J.O. Farmer

Robson99 wrote: »

Dosed lambs with a fluke dose but at only half the recommended rate ie 4 ml instead of 8ml. The withdrawl period on the Box says 56 days but would this reduce for only giving them 4ml??
If I killed them 40 days after dose would it show up??

Withdrawals do have a safety period built in to make sure everything is out of the system but nobody can tell you it's alright to kill them.
Also why did you only give a half dose. It's a great way to select for resistance.

Robson99

rangler1 wrote: »

probably not but it'd be a brave person that'd tell you to send them in 40 days,
What's the product.
Also if you record it ''honestly'' in your medicine records, it'd show up on inspection

Not in bord bia so no medicine records

Robson99

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Withdrawals do have a safety period built in to make sure everything is out of the system but nobody can tell you it's alright to kill them.
Also why did you only give a half dose. It's a great way to select for resistance.

Always split a fluke dose when giving to bought in lambs. Lost a few before after giving full amount in one hit started splitting after.
Was sure it was 42 days - realised after first dose it was 56
It was tribex

Username John

Robson99 wrote: »

Always split a fluke dose when giving to bought in lambs. Lost a few before after giving full amount in one hit started splitting after.
Was sure it was 42 days - realised after first dose it was 56
It was tribex

When will you give the second half of the dose?

Edit : if they were home grown, why not give the full amount of dose?

I'd be more thinking like above - that's it's a great way to increase resistance...

In the withdrawal - I would say the 56 days still stands, regardless if you gave 4 or 8ml...

rangler1

Robson99 wrote: »

Not in bord bia so no medicine records

Do you not get Single Farm Payment, ours was checked at the last Cross Compliance inspection,

I think you're supposed to have 3 years records available

Robson99

Username John wrote: »

When will you give the second half of the dose?

Edit : if they were home grown, why not give the full amount of dose?

I'd be more thinking like above - that's it's a great way to increase resistance...

In the withdrawal - I would say the 56 days still stands, regardless if you gave 4 or 8ml...

I wont give them any more. If they were for keeping over the winter I would give second dose 3 days later. They were bought in

Robson99

rangler1 wrote: »

Do you not get Single Farm Payment, ours was checked at the last Cross Compliance inspection,

I think you're supposed to have 3 years records available

Dont breed any here Rangler. Just buy in a few to clean up after the cattle this time of year. They would have a job to prove I dose them or not
On a side note. If I sold them at say 20 post dosing and the next man killed the 10 days later how could they prove it was me that dosed them??

Username John

Robson99 wrote: »

Dont breed any here Rangler. Just buy in a few to clean up after the cattle this time of year. They would have a job to prove I dose them or not
On a side note. If I sold them at say 20 post dosing and the next man killed the 10 days later how could they prove it was me that dosed them??

I don't really understand...

Why only give them half a dose, and not bother giving them the second half?
An why give them a dose with a withdrawal of 40 days if you planning to sell em in 20 days?

rangler1

Robson99 wrote: »

Dont breed any here Rangler. Just buy in a few to clean up after the cattle this time of year. They would have a job to prove I dose them or not
On a side note. If I sold them at say 20 post dosing and the next man killed the 10 days later how could they prove it was me that dosed them??

This happened locally a few years ago and they tested both farmers cattle and found which farmer had used the stuff....if it shows up in the carcase,it'll show up in the live ones too
Every medicine you buy now is recorded,so if there is, they can find out which of you bought the product, they can also get a list of your medicines from your vet too,
To be quality assured they have to be on your farm 70 days for that reason.
You're supposed to declare medicines at the mart if they're within withdrawal

Robson99

Username John wrote: »

I don't really understand...

Why only give them half a dose, and not bother giving them the second half?
An why give them a dose with a withdrawal of 40 days if you planning to sell em in 20 days?

Because I thought the withdrawl period was 42 days. If I gave the the second dose they would definitely be there for 56 days. They will be fit to kill in 6 weeks
Just used 20 days as an example if someone sold them... I'm not

Robson99

rangler1 wrote: »

This happened locally a few years ago and they tested both farmers cattle and found which farmer had used the stuff....if it shows up in the carcase,it'll show up in the live ones too
Every medicine you buy now is recorded,so if there is, they can find out which of you bought the product, they can also get a list of your medicines from your vet too,
To be quality assured they have to be on your farm 70 days for that reason.
You're supposed to declare medicines at the mart if they're within withdrawal

How long do lambs have to be on the farm to get QA Rangler??
Is it worth much more???, anytime I going to factory they give me a price over phone , never say extra if QA.
There must be no one dosing lambs down our way - I have yet to hear an auctioneer announce recently dosed!!!!

rangler1

Robson99 wrote: »

How long do lambs have to be on the farm to get QA Rangler??
Is it worth much more???, anytime I going to factory they give me a price over phone , never say extra if QA.
There must be no one dosing lambs down our way - I have yet to hear an auctioneer announce recently dosed!!!!

Only messers ignore withdrawal periods, totally irresponsible as is not giving recommended dose.
Do you not understand that messing like that is the reason that only vets will be allowed use medicines if we don't do it properly.
Framers are already being blamed for antibiotic failures and you're on here giving good reason

Robson99

rangler1 wrote: »

Only messers ignore withdrawal periods, totally irresponsible as is not giving recommended dose.
Do you not understand that messing like that is the reason that only vets will be allowed use medicines if we don't do it properly.
Framers are already being blamed for antibiotic failures and you're on here giving good reason

Cool the jets - ive never said I have ignored the withdrawal period and how I give them the recommended dose is my business... be it in one two or three doses.
I only asked a question - if an animal got half a recommended dose does it take the same length of time to leave the system
I'm not trying to lead a revolution against proper farming practice

eorna

To answer the question if the product say withdrawal 56 days then the withdrawal is 56 days.
To my understanding it takes that amount of time for the drug to leave the animal so the animal is safe to enter the food chain.. The amount given is irrelevant imo as once the drug enters the body then still takes 56 days to leave the animal.
( if click withdrawal is 40 days and you apply 1/2 of amount the wiithdrawal still 40 days because the drug still in the animal after 20/30 days)

orm0nd

Regardless of when they're fit to kill, are you not concerned about residues entering the food chain? if not I don't think you should continue producing food for human consumption.

Also Triclabendazole, (the active ingred. of Tribex) is very easy to build up resistance to, you are not helping by using incorrect dosage rate.

Green farmer

Regardless of overdosing or under dosing, traces of medicine will be in animal system at some level until withdrawal date says so. is it really worth risking your herd number and livelihood for the sake or a week or two ?

Robson99

orm0nd wrote: »

Regardless of when they're fit to kill, are you not concerned about residues entering the food chain? if not I don't think you should continue producing food for human consumption.

Also Triclabendazole, (the active ingred. of Tribex) is very easy to build up resistance to, you are not helping by using incorrect dosage rate.

Thats why I asked. I am concerned.
I dont think build up of resistance is relevant to lambs being killed in 2 months

Robson99

Green farmer wrote: »

Regardless of overdosing or under dosing, traces of medicine will be in animal system at some level until withdrawal date says so. is it really worth risking your herd number and livelihood for the sake or a week or two ?

I'm not going to risk it I was only asking the question
If you drink 5 pints it takes longer to leave your system than if you drink just 1. Its just a curious question

Username John

Robson99 wrote: »

Thats why I asked. I am concerned.
I dont think build up of resistance is relevant to lambs being killed in 2 months

But tis the worms will build up resistance, not the lambs...

I think you have the answer to your initial query - the dose said 56 days. So hold onto your lambs for 56 days...

Also - I think the general view is don't 'half dose', as it will build up resistance, and that is no good for anyone...

Robson99

orm0nd wrote: »

Regardless of when they're fit to kill, are you not concerned about residues entering the food chain? if not I don't think you should continue producing food for human consumption. .

Surely if the factory inspectors are doing their job the carcass will end up in the skip and not in the dinner table?????

Username John

Robson99 wrote: »

Surely if the factory inspectors are doing their job the carcass will end up in the skip and not in the dinner table?????

Ah now...

You can't cop out like that...

Everyone has to act responsibly... You can't just say 'sure the law / powers that be will catch me' and blantaly disregard the law either...

rangler1

Robson99 wrote: »

Thats why I asked. I am concerned.
I dont think build up of resistance is relevant to lambs being killed in 2 months

It's not the lambs resistance that's the concern, it's the parasites resistance to the product, you keep underdosing with a product and the parasites (fluke, worms,etc)will eventually develop a tolerance for the drug.
There are some farms where only one type of worm dose is effective and when they have that abused, those farmers have to move on to the prescription only products at four times the price and even those products are breaking down on some farms.
It's actually everybodies business how medicines are abused, as opposed to you saying it's nobodies business how you dose your lambs

orm0nd

Robson99 wrote: »

Surely if the factory inspectors are doing their job the carcass will end up in the skip and not in the dinner table?????

if they do end up in the skip you'll have more inspectors on your doorstep than you knew existed & rightly so

you've been given good advise here re withdrawal & worm resistance ,

I think you need to get advise re dosing regime on your farm 'cos your present method is worthless

Robson99

Lads I'm not implying that I do anything wrong or that I would.
I buy store lambs -some stay 8 weeks some 16 weeks. Everything gets a fluke & worm dose when they come in.
I am not the only one I know who splits the dose - dont think worm /fluke resistance is going to be an issue because of that one dose and that will be killed within 16 weeks.
When giving an oral dose to cattle or sheep here we would usually leave them fasting for 3 or 4 hours before and after dosing and no access to water. It doesn't say that on the dose box... maybe that method is worthless too

J.O. Farmer

Robson99 wrote: »

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Withdrawals do have a safety period built in to make sure everything is out of the system but nobody can tell you it's alright to kill them.
Also why did you only give a half dose. It's a great way to select for resistance.

Always split a fluke dose when giving to bought in lambs. Lost a few before after giving full amount in one hit started splitting after.
Was sure it was 42 days - realised after first dose it was 56
It was tribex

Just going back to the logic of splitting the dose. I would talk to your vet about a slower acting product or get one that only gets adult fluke first if you feel this is a problem. Dose later then with the full dose of your product of choice.

I'm guessing that if the full fluke dose killed them it's due to a large number of fluke dying together and blocking bile ducts or something. If you kill the fluke more gradually there shouldn't be a problem.

Queenalocin

Robson99 wrote: »

Cool the jets - ive never said I have ignored the withdrawal period and how I give them the recommended dose is my business... be it in one two or three doses.
I only asked a question - if an animal got half a recommended dose does it take the same length of time to leave the system
I'm not trying to lead a revolution against proper farming practice

Yes it does take the same amount of time. The withdrawal period is based on how long it takes for the animal to actually break down the medication in its body and excrete it. It doesn't matter how much goes in, it takes the same amount of time to come out.

charolais0153

Its like the immune system of humans. You get a small amount of MMR given to you, you don't get the measles because your body fights it off. When the real measles cone the immune system knows what its fighting against and can kill it off easily.
Do you get it now?
The worms are like the immune system and the MMR is the dose

Robson99

charolais0153 wrote: »

Its like the immune system of humans. You get a small amount of MMR given to you, you don't get the measles because your body fights it off. When the real measles cone the immune system knows what its fighting against and can kill it off easily.
Do you get it now?
The worms are like the immune system and the MMR is the dose

I dont need to get it. Did you read my post there short keep LAMBS. They will be hanging before any resistance has built up
I didn't ask for an education on resistance. I asked about withdrawal time. 1 pint out of the system compared to 5. Simple question . Nothing to do with resistance

Vandy West

Robson99 wrote: »

I dont need to get it. Did you read my post there short keep LAMBS. They will be hanging before any resistance has built up
I didn't ask for an education on resistance. I asked about withdrawal time. 1 pint out of the system compared to 5. Simple question . Nothing to do with resistance

It is the fluke/ worms that become resistant. Your right it won't matter to the lams that are killed. But next time you use the dose it will kill less of the fluke/ worms until the point where the dose will kill very little of the fluke /worms and will be useless.

The pints comparison would not be accurate. Drugs break down at a standard rate. so each ml will need the same amount of time to leave the blood. Withdrawal time would be the same even if you overdosed as far as I know.

greysides

Robson99, if some of the lambs you bought in are carrying fluke that are partially resistant to the flukicude you're using then using a half dose is going to be more less-effective so you're quite likely not to be getting the results you wish for. These will then survive to contaminate your pastures with resistant eggs. You will escape for a while as lambs will be going for slaughter and not present for long but soon enough if you have snail habitats present the problem will rear it's head as resistant fluke are present in high enough numbers to cause problems for the lambs.

J.O. Farmer

Vandy West wrote: »

Robson99 wrote: »

I dont need to get it. Did you read my post there short keep LAMBS. They will be hanging before any resistance has built up
I didn't ask for an education on resistance. I asked about withdrawal time. 1 pint out of the system compared to 5. Simple question . Nothing to do with resistance

The pints comparison would not be accurate. Drugs break down at a standard rate. so each ml will need the same amount of time to leave the blood. Withdrawal time would be the same even if you overdosed as far as I know.

The standard rate is the half life. As the name suggests it's the time it takes to eliminate half the drug. It takes the same amount of time to reduce from 2ml to 1ml as it does from 4ml to 2ml. As such half a dose will take one half life less and double the dose one half life more.

ganmo

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

The standard rate is the half life. As the name suggests it's the time it takes to eliminate half the drug. It takes the same amount of time to reduce from 2ml to 1ml as it does from 4ml to 2ml. As such half a dose will take one half life less and double the dose one half life more.

That's what I'd assume too but I wouldn't act on it without getting advice from someone who knows that drug's action

J.O. Farmer

ganmo wrote: »

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

The standard rate is the half life. As the name suggests it's the time it takes to eliminate half the drug. It takes the same amount of time to reduce from 2ml to 1ml as it does from 4ml to 2ml. As such half a dose will take one half life less and double the dose one half life more.

That's what I'd assume too but I wouldn't act on it without getting advice from someone who knows that drug's action

I would still go with the recommended withdrawal as the half life of the drug might only be hours or a couple of days. It'll have to go through a lot of half life's to be out of the system.