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Are Ireland's roads safe for cyclists?

  • 08-09-2016 6:02am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭


    ......so asks an article on the Journal in the wake of recent collisions that resulted in the deaths of cyclists.
    THE DEATH OF a woman cycling to work in Dublin has put an increased focus on the dangers facing cyclists on Irish roads.

    Donna Fox (30) died in the East Wall area of Dublin when she was hit by a truck on Monday. In the two weeks previous, two young boys also died after being hit by cars when they were cycling in Louth and Offaly.

    In all, nine cyclist have been killed this year and there are calls for a greater focus on the protection of vulnerable people using Ireland’s roads.

    My own view is that yes, Ireland's and Dublin's roads are more than safe enough for cyclists and that too much significance shouldn't be attached to single, tragic, high profile events that garner significant media attention.

    Saying that, there's always room for improvement. Personally, I'd like to see....
    • Much more vigorous enforcement of the safe passing requirements that exist in Irish road traffic legislation
    • "Left on red" being allowed at as many junctions as is safe to do so
    • Much more effort put into road safety, rather than just driver behaviour/standards, by the Road Safety Authority - they could start by dropping their fetishisation of hi-viz and promote proper lighting up along with safe cycling behaviour rather than just autonomic compliance with legislation - there needs to be a recognition that blind compliance with the legislation as it stands is not synonymous with safe cycling
    • Campaigns to encourage / remind cyclists to avoid the inside of HGVs and how to do so - and campaigns to encourage HGV drivers not to pull alongside cyclists who have already stopped at a junction before them......it's one thing to put cyclists in cabs so they get an impression of what drivers can/cannot see, but why not put HGV drives on bikes and let them experience what cyclists experience?


«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I would agree with that, although I would support minimum passing legislation stating a limit. I didn't initially, but since I've upped the mileage I really do see the need. That, together with support for bike/ helmet cam footage for enforcement.

    In terms of the roads, I would say in general there's nothing wrong with the roads, it's the road users!

    It all pretty much it comes down to enforcement. There is very little enforcement of any road traffic legislation, and personally I think to change the culture we need to really clamp down on the things that are an easy, but capital expenditure fix. We need many more fixed, and fixed average speed cameras (they don't need cameras in all of them, all the time, rotate them around), red light cameras (including for cyclists, for targeting junctions and/or stats to either back or not the claims), greater use of APRN's for whatever they can catch - tax/ insurance/ disqualified drivers/ unqualified drivers/ bus lane drivers. Completely change the culture of the roads.

    There is a big education piece too. I'd like to think I used to give adequate space, and adequately check blind spots at junctions before I was cycling more, but there's no doubt I'm more conscious now. I'd say that's fed through to my family members, who I've educated/ lectured when they've done too close a pass for my liking.

    If we want to change the motorists’ view of cyclists, the greatest way would be to get more of them out on the bike. Ideally I'd like them to have to spend at least an hour on a bike a year to maintain a licence - get a fleet of trikes/ electric bikes if people claim they can't, or aren't fit enough!

    Even if safety options couldn't be enforced on existing fleet, I think it's time to make clear cabs, or cameras/ sensor a standard on new HGV's. I would also like to see it as at least a discussion for them to be the minimum requirement for HGV's within the cordon in Dublin. Putting the complete onus on cyclist behaviour is victim blaming - if there's a problem with HGV/ Cyclist intervention it has to be looked at from both Cyclist and HGV and Driver point of view.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,733 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.
    Not convinced it would tbh. As we keep getting reminded, motorists have to pass a theory and practical test, and look at the standard of driving/ ignorance of the rules of the road!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.

    I was never convinced about arguments that teaching cycling and RoTR in school would help - doing something about the traffic / parking the vicinity of schools might be a better idea.

    Talking to an engineer recently who was in the Netherlands on a study trip and they were examining some of the measures in place around a school when a car rolled up and let a couple of kids out (school had already started at this stage) - the car then pulled a u-turn and drove off.

    A few minutes later a lady, who it turns out was the driver of the car, comes puffing up on her bike and begins apologising profusely to the official looking group for driving up to the school, and the cycles off. The Irish lads remarked on the socially responsible attitude that led her to return and apologise and their Dutch colleagues laughed saying it was nothing to do with that - she was worried she be reported to the police for driving in the exclusion area that operates around the school!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    In my opinion the roads of Ireland will never be safe as there are too many idiot cyclists out there thinking that they're in The Tour De France particularly on the streets of Dublin.

    Women shouldn't be allowed on the roads of this country either.
    The amount of times I've been on a motorway and went to overtake the car in front of me for them to suddenly find the accelerator! What makes it worse is when they find themselves behind a HGV they just sit there and do nothing!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭irishrover99


    In my opinion the roads of Ireland will never be safe as there are too many idiot cyclists out there thinking that they're in The Tour De France particularly on the streets of Dublin.

    Women shouldn't be allowed on the roads of this country either.
    The amount of times I've been on a motorway and went to overtake the car in front of me for them to suddenly find the accelerator! What makes it worse is when they find themselves behind a HGV they just sit there and do nothing!


    Gob****e Ted


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Oh, I'd like to add one more to my 'wish list'......

    .....with more and more cyclists getting helmet cams and the like I think it'd be great if AGS could put in place a mechanism / process whereby footage could be submitted for consideration for further action, much as the Met do in London.....

    .....I think that would be a strong deterrent against close passing and poor driver, cyclist etc behaviour.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd be too afraid of 'teaching the rules of the road in school' morphing into 'teaching driving' (cos i've heard people suggest many times this should be done); and the last thing we should be doing is elevating driving to the level where it's considered a life skill.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    Maybe if we had some enforcement of the law, I drove to work today, saw the following:

    - Recycling truck perform a U-turn on carysfort avenue.
    - Car cut-in to queue of traffic on brewery road, car began swerving a little on Brewery road, as I got behind car I saw driver was on phone.
    - Car that had been between me and phone guy pulled in to cycle path on Brewery road to let passenger out. This is a lane with a kerb, how are cyclists supposed to get around?
    - And the crowning "wtf?" moment: coming up to the sandyford junction (the new one at the luas bridge). Phone driver hesitates then goes through red light. I stop. Taxi that was behind me and to my right hits the gas and goes through a red that had been solid for 2 or 3 seconds.

    I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.

    Where are the gardai??? Why do we not have red light cameras if the country is obsessed with squeezing money out of people, at least squeeze the idiots who make roads dangerous!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Teaching rules of the road in primary school would help.

    IMO, time would be much better spent teaching them how to cycle safely as a practical rather than theoretical exercise. Passive measures such as hi-viz and helmets are no substitute for education and experience and really amount to little more than tokenism on the part of a national interest in safe cycling.

    From a safety point of view the roads are very mixed, but I think with a bit of planning your can find safe routes for most levels of cycling.

    Given that the best way to improve cycling safety is to increase the number of cyclists on the road and decrease the number of short car journeys, I'd love to see a video from the RSA that advocated cycling as a healthy, fun, and green mode of transport rather than constantly focusing on risk factors. No wonder most non-cyclists consider cycling dangerous as all the media puts out is information about the dangers of cycling and news about the fatalities.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    smacl wrote: »
    IMO, time would be much better spent teaching them how to cycle safely as a practical rather than theoretical exercise. Passive measures such as hi-viz and helmets are no substitute for education and experience and really amount to little more than tokenism on the part of a national interest in safe cycling.
    I always forget on these threads that I did a rospa cycling proficiency course/ test when I was in primary school in the UK - no idea whether it's still as good, but certainly taught the fundamentals of road position, signalling etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭Fian


    In my opinion the roads of Ireland will never be safe as there are too many idiot cyclists out there thinking that they're in The Tour De France particularly on the streets of Dublin.

    Women shouldn't be allowed on the roads of this country either.
    The amount of times I've been on a motorway and went to overtake the car in front of me for them to suddenly find the accelerator! What makes it worse is when they find themselves behind a HGV they just sit there and do nothing!

    I will treat your opinion with all the respect it deserves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Weepsie wrote: »
    CycleDub would get such a hard on if that happened. What will also happen is every little whiney person like him will sent very 10 second clip of a driver edging out turn and every other non incident that is going to one day give him a stroke.

    ....

    I think as with the Met, there'd be no obligation on the Guards to act. So a 10 second clip only needs to be viewed for 10 seconds before it gets dumped. Plus any such system could run on an 'exception' basis - in other words you make your submission (including the required form) and if you hear nothing within, say, 28 days you assume the Guards have decided no action was necessary.

    Plus make the submission form long enough and it will deter the more 'fragile' cyclists ;)


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Weepsie wrote: »
    The incident the other day needs one thing first and foremost. Teach cyclists and drivers alike about HGV and Bus blind spots. Cyclists have a duty of care too to not put themselves in that position. You see a truck up ahead, stop a bit behind, try and get the drivers attention. Move on when clear. Anyone going up inside a truck is not far from potential disaster

    The truck driver has the 'duty of care'. They are the one driving the machine that kills people when it rolls over them.

    In answer to the OP, I think they are generally safe of course. Removing or restricting vehicles with large blind spots in urban areas would be a huge help. Worth noting they are also just damaging to the urban environment full stop, it's not just a cycling safety thing.

    The default setting should be no HGVs within the M50 unless you've got a really good reason why there is no possible alternative, and we should tighten the definition of 'HGV' to include any high-cab vehicles with blind spots.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    The truck driver has the 'duty of care'. They are the one driving the machine that kills people when it rolls over them.

    In answer to the OP, I think they are generally safe of course. Removing or restricting vehicles with large blind spots in urban areas would be a huge help. Worth noting they are also just damaging to the urban environment full stop, it's not just a cycling safety thing.

    The default setting should be no HGVs within the M50 unless you've got a really good reason why there is no possible alternative, and we should tighten the definition of 'HGV' to include any high-cab vehicles with blind spots.

    The incident on the M8 occurred because a female driver decided to stop suddenly on a motorway in order for her friend to hear a phone call!
    The truck that killed her unfortunately doesn't stop as quickly as a car does but again women in a modern environment, no place for them!


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The incident on the M8 occurred because a female driver decided to stop suddenly on a motorway in order for her friend to hear a phone call!
    The truck that killed her unfortunately doesn't stop as quickly as a car does but again women in a modern environment, no place for them!

    Troll banned


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    DirkVoodoo wrote: »
    I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.
    Was in the car this morning - amount of red light jumping by cars was ridiculous this morning - it's always pretty bad, but was caught in a red wave and every junction at least two cars went through clear reds, never mind the amber gamblers.

    Have never really noticed lots of cyclists going through the reds on that route either on bike, or when in the car though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Make drivers cycle as part of their driving test.

    There's a lot of anti cycling bias in the media which doesn't help. A lot of commentators on cycling issues don't have any experience of cycling.


  • Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Was in the car this morning - amount of red light jumping by cars was ridiculous this morning - it's always pretty bad, but was caught in a red wave and every junction at least two cars went through clear reds, never mind the amber gamblers.

    Have never really noticed lots of cyclists going through the reds on that route either on bike, or when in the car though.

    It appears red is the new orange.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    DirkVoodoo wrote: »
    ....
    I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.

    Where are the gardai??? Why do we not have red light cameras if the country is obsessed with squeezing money out of people, at least squeeze the idiots who make roads dangerous!

    Last research stats I looked at red light breaking isn't a big cause of accidents for cyclists. But I disagree with it as you need respect from other road users and this destroys it.

    Yeah enforcement. Where is it.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Weepsie wrote: »
    I didn't say they didn't. However, wtf has happened to personal responsibility. If I see a HGV or truck up ahead, i know that I need to hang back, particularly at a junction.

    Now it's different if I'm there first and it rolls up along side me, but you can't just put all the responsibility on the driver in all instances. A bit of common sense should see you thinking "oh that 10 tonne truck could kill me, I'll approach this situation with caution".

    This morning, only 500 metres from Tuesday's accident I saw 4 morons squeeze up inside a truck. A truck driver can't be held fully responsible for idiots like that

    This might sound like nit-picking but 'duty of care' means something specific. Truck drivers have a duty of care, cyclists as a rule don't or rather its of a different order because the damage a bike does is so much less.

    Precisely part of the problem is that when cyclists get mushed by HGVs we start talking about idiot cyclists rather than asking why vehicles with large blind spots are being driven in urban areas, and why they are taking left turns when they don't KNOW their inside is clear. They can't be responsible for everything, but someone IS responsible for deciding it is OK for these vehicles to drive in urban areas.

    But I do of course agree about cyclists being smart, when it comes to my children they receive stern lectures on a regular basis about the dangers of going up the inside of large vehicles. They are sick of hearing about it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    I think something that might help would be a requirement for all drivers to do a refresher course every 10 years. There are an awful lot of drivers who repeatedly demonstrate scant regard for the law, the safety of other road users and pedestrians or themselves. There are too many drivers who learned to drive in what was essentially another reality in terms of our roads and vehicles, who have developed bad habits, who have gotten complacent, we even have fully licensed drivers who never had to pass any test. When someone has been driving all their adult life I think it's really easy to forget you are going around each day with the ability to kill multiple persons if you don't take proper care. That bad parking can put others at risk, etc. So making drivers take the time to regularly brush up on their skills and maintain them because if they don't demonstrate an ability to drive safely and follow the rules they could lose their license.

    That along with enforcement of the existing laws would make the roads safer for everyone.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    DirkVoodoo wrote: »
    Where are the gardai???

    Size of the Garda Traffic Corps has fallen from 1,200 to 700 over past few years. That's unlikely to change any time soon, since any extra money going into policing at the moment is being directed at gangland crime.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I've thought of another issue to be addressed - advance stop lines/ boxes are routinely ignored, in many cases deliberately imo. If they don't have the status of a yellow box, they should be given it (and something else that should be automatically captured).

    Also, are advance stop lines big/ long enough. They'd still put you in the blind spot of HGV if it was front of the motorised vehicle queue.
    Size of the Garda Traffic Corps has fallen from 1,200 to 700 over past few years. That's unlikely to change any time soon, since any extra money going into policing at the moment is being directed at gangland crime.
    That's why we need more, and extensive, automatic systems - speed/ average speed/ APRN's. Free up the traffic corp for stuff that can't be captured.

    There's a real vicious circle regarding red light jumping by motorists. Our light squences are long to allow for amber and red gambling. Which causes frustration, and more jumping the lights, and then longer sequences. With red light cameras, sequence times could be reduced.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,853 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    smacl wrote: »
    From a safety point of view the roads are very mixed, but I think with a bit of planning your can find safe routes for most levels of cycling.

    This is very true. Picking your route is maybe the most important step. Other mitigation measures are pretty paltry in comparison to having a route that isn't full of fast-moving, impatient drivers in narrow lanes, or with hurtling HGVs. Acting predictably comes second, and shouldn't need emphasis, but it probably does.

    All other measures, including the AGS and RSA's passive favourites are much less important.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there's one road i cycle on every couple of weeks, the garristown road from the broadmeadow (the R130) and someday, there's going to be a bad smash on that road, as there's a distribution depot on the road which has a constant stream of articulated lorries shuttling to and from it. i've not had any near misses on the bike, thankfully, but i've had a couple in the car. and there's a couple of near 90 degree bends on that road too.

    it seems to be the sort of depot which started small and just got bigger and bigger; no way they'd get planning permission for its like on a greenfield site on a road like that if starting from scratch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    DirkVoodoo wrote: »
    I also was surprised at the number of cyclists going through red lights onto the N11, mostly from Brewery road, a few on N11 northbound. Would they pose the same risk as the cars above? No, but definitely endangering themselves.

    On the cycle lane ? I always ignore the lights at the end of Brewery Road/N11 junction going north as the cycle lane is 'inside' the traffic lights i.e. the cycle lane is not on the road. Is this wrong ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    PaulieC wrote: »
    On the cycle lane ? I always ignore the lights at the end of Brewery Road/N11 junction going north as the cycle lane is 'inside' the traffic lights i.e. the cycle lane is not on the road. Is this wrong ?

    Looking at it on street view, the cycle lane appears to be outside the signal area, though it appears to be aimed that you then go down St. Brigid's Church Rd. The turn from there to N11 looks more questionable, though is that a case of the design being wrong?

    Breaking the red to go through that junction northbound though is just idiotic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    though is that a case of the design being wrong?

    It's just another case of cycle lanes going nowhere. If you go down St. Brigid's Church Road, it comes to a complete stop after the bus stop.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'm sure it can't be difficult, using google maps, to create a 'heat map' of incidents involving cyclists?
    the main issue would be 'spam' style entries, but if commuting cyclists were able to stick a pin on a map, say on cross guns bridge, and say 'i had a close pass from a bus here', it might help identify problematic roads or junctions, especially if the incidents reported are consistent.
    main issue would be getting enough reliable data, probably.

    i'd also be interested if local authorities can (and do) buy data from strava - though strava would obviously not be used nearly as much by commuting cyclists, and even if so, by confident cyclists, so wouldn't capture the more casual commuters.

    what could also help with this is whether bikes are tracked on the dublin bike scheme; i.e. can they tell out of 1000 bike journeys made from exchequer street, how many go south, how many north, etc.?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    i'm sure it can't be difficult, using google maps, to create a 'heat map' of incidents involving cyclists?
    the main issue would be 'spam' style entries, but if commuting cyclists were able to stick a pin on a map, say on cross guns bridge, and say 'i had a close pass from a bus here', it might help identify problematic roads or junctions, especially if the incidents reported are consistent.
    main issue would be getting enough reliable data, probably.

    i'd also be interested if local authorities can (and do) buy data from strava - though strava would obviously not be used nearly as much by commuting cyclists, and even if so, by confident cyclists, so wouldn't capture the more casual commuters.

    what could also help with this is whether bikes are tracked on the dublin bike scheme; i.e. can they tell out of 1000 bike journeys made from exchequer street, how many go south, how many north, etc.?

    It might work if everyone had the same idea of what an incident was.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, that's the main issue. consistency.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    PaulieC wrote: »
    It's just another case of cycle lanes going nowhere. If you go down St. Brigid's Church Road, it comes to a complete stop after the bus stop.

    It probably isn't a coincidence that it stops at a bicycle rack.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    psinno wrote: »
    It probably isn't a coincidence that it stops at a bicycle rack.

    There is a yield at the cycle rack, but continues on for another bit before fizzling out


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    PaulieC wrote: »
    On the cycle lane ? I always ignore the lights at the end of Brewery Road/N11 junction going north as the cycle lane is 'inside' the traffic lights i.e. the cycle lane is not on the road. Is this wrong ?

    I cycle it most days. If green light I follow the traffic, if red I take the cycle path and stop at the bollard, when the light goes green for traffic I move off. There were guys this morning taking risks out in front of other cyclists or traffic.

    Left turn on red should be allowed for bikes, there is nothing really wrong with it and self preservation means it should be safe. The dangerous ones who are likely to pull out in front of other cyclists will do so regardless of it being legal or not.


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Jawgap wrote: »
    My own view is that yes, Ireland's and Dublin's roads are more than safe enough for cyclists

    This. My own view is that it's by far the most important thing is that the messaging has to change. We can't expect people to cycle while simultaneously making them feel that cycling is dangerous. It isn't. If you want to promote cycling, do so with images of healthy, happy people on their bikes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭boardbeer


    Human-operated motor vehicles are the problem. AV's will sort that out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭Happy_Harry


    Are Ireland's roads safe for cyclists ?

    No- I don't know about Dublin, but outside Dublin, definitely not.

    The infrastructure in Ireland is not designed for cyclists, it is designed (at best) for cars.

    If you want to encourage cycling, the only way to make it safer is to invest in cycle lanes, separated from the main road. I was cycling everywhere in Holland since I was 4. Never had an accident other than falling off my bike due to ice or my own fault.
    I would not dream of getting on a bike here. I value my life.

    How can it be safe, if you have cyclists on narrow-ish roads at 20km/h with cars/HGVs at 100 km/h. It simply doesn't go together, especially since drivers are not used to cyclists. It will take a long time to get driver behavior changed, and even then, if everyone making a left turn would look over their shoulder to spot a cyclist , as I still do, this will not be a safe country for cyclists.

    My daughter does have a bike, but the the only place she will be cycling is on the lane in front of my house with less than 5 cars a day, and even there I don't like it. She can moan all she likes, I will drive her wherever she wants/needs to go, but she will never be cycling on the roads until there are cycle lanes.


  • Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No- I don't know about Dublin, but outside Dublin, definitely not.

    The infrastructure in Ireland is not designed for cyclists, it is designed (at best) for cars.

    If you want to encourage cycling, the only way to make it safer is to invest in cycle lanes, separated from the main road. I was cycling everywhere in Holland since I was 4. Never had an accident other than falling off my bike due to ice or my own fault.
    I would not dream of getting on a bike here. I value my life.

    How can it be safe, if you have cyclists on narrow-ish roads at 20km/h with cars/HGVs at 100 km/h. It simply doesn't go together, especially since drivers are not used to cyclists. It will take a long time to get driver behavior changed, and even then, if everyone making a left turn would look over their shoulder to spot a cyclist , as I still do, this will not be a safe country for cyclists.

    My daughter does have a bike, but the the only place she will be cycling is on the lane in front of my house with less than 5 cars a day, and even there I don't like it. She can moan all she likes, I will drive her wherever she wants/needs to go, but she will never be cycling on the roads until there are cycle lanes.

    Cycling on Irish roads is largely safe and for the most part motorists are considerate and give plenty of room.

    I don't agree with your pessimistic outlook on cycling on Irish roads at all.

    But I do a agree we should follow Hollands lead and make cycling a priority in Town centers and introduce something like strict liability.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    only once can i think of a situation where i was on a narrowish road and a car passed me at 100km/h+ (and i reckon he was doing 140 or 150km/h!)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭Happy_Harry


    ronoc wrote: »
    Cycling on Irish roads is largely safe and for the most part motorists are considerate and give plenty of room.

    They do give plenty of space when they spot the cyclists on time, unfortunately our roads are not all very straight and due to the difference in speed, it can be hard to spot cyclists on these roads. I have a lot of bends in the roads near me.
    I don't agree with your pessimistic outlook on cycling on Irish roads at all.

    Fair enough, it is my view and I know it may not be a popular one.
    But I do a agree we should follow Hollands lead and make cycling a priority in Town centers and introduce something like strict liability.

    The strict liability is a good system for cyclists and pedestrians, however I don't think it is what makes cycling in Holland safe. It is the infrastructure, and not just in towns. I am pretty sure (it is been a while that I was cycling in Holland) that every main connecting road between towns has a separated cycle lane. Sure there are some back roads without cycle lanes, and I would not find it particularly safe to cycle there either, but there won't be many, if any, trucks on those roads.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    They do give plenty of space when they spot the cyclists on time, unfortunately our roads are not all very straight and due to the difference in speed, it can be hard to spot cyclists on these roads. I have a lot of bends in the roads near me.

    Your justification is common among Irish motorists - it's the road or the cyclists, it's not me.

    The simple fact is that if you are travelling at such a speed on a narrow winding road that you are unable to react to potential hazards around the next bend, you are driving too fast for the conditions.

    Our 80/100 km/hr speed "limits" on country roads are ludicrous and reinforce this behavior - I was driving that fast because the sign told me to.

    EDIT: Most country roads are fine for cycling, in fact they were designed for it, or for cars that would struggle to maintain 50 kmhr safely, now we have 200bhp diesel cars with "intelligent" driver and safety aids, making warp speed possible. It's the cars that aren't suitable, not the cyclists or the roads.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭boardbeer


    It is the infrastructure, and not just in towns. I am pretty sure (it is been a while that I was cycling in Holland) that every main connecting road between towns has a separated cycle lane.
    I don't think the it is the separated lanes that make it safer in places like the Netherlands and Denmark, but the way the junctions are arranged (ok, this is nearly always facilitated by bike and motor traffic feeding in from separate lanes), however, there are solutions for manage this better even without separation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭dermabrasion


    I think you can pretty much break the ROTR with impunity, or a fairly remote chance of prosecution. Outside of speed camera's, you can drive up the bus lane, speed on backroads or housing estates, run red lights, park on footpaths and text to your hearts content. Your not going to be caught.

    Sadly, I have no confidence the Garda will act to protect me. I know there are reasons for this, but it has been my personal experience that they don't.
    I really wish we had enforcement, because if you call another Irish person on their lawbreaking, you will be told to f***-off. And that's it. No consequence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭Bloggsie


    smacl wrote: »
    IMO, time would be much better spent teaching them how to cycle safely as a practical rather than theoretical exercise. Passive measures such as hi-viz and helmets are no substitute for education and experience and really amount to little more than tokenism on the part of a national interest in safe cycling.

    From a safety point of view the roads are very mixed, but I think with a bit of planning your can find safe routes for most levels of cycling.

    Given that the best way to improve cycling safety is to increase the number of cyclists on the road and decrease the number of short car journeys, I'd love to see a video from the RSA that advocated cycling as a healthy, fun, and green mode of transport rather than constantly focusing on risk factors. No wonder most non-cyclists consider cycling dangerous as all the media puts out is information about the dangers of cycling and news about the fatalities.
    Saw a thing on bookface the other day, Get the kids to count the number of cyclists you pass while in the car, that way they look out for them as a kid and hopefully that stays with you when you begin driving". To me it makes sense!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,084 ✭✭✭✭neris


    not ireland but just spotted this on twitter

    https://twitter.com/AndyRolfe65/status/773804492685017088


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 643 ✭✭✭REBELSAFC


    neris wrote: »
    not ireland but just spotted this on twitter

    https://twitter.com/AndyRolfe65/status/773804492685017088



    Very marginal gains there;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭Bloggsie


    Saw a thing on bookface the other day, Get the kids to count the number of cyclists you pass while in the car, that way they look out for them as a kid and hopefully that stays with you when you begin driving". To me it makes sense!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Bloggsie wrote: »
    Saw a thing on bookface the other day, Get the kids to count the number of cyclists who pass you while in the car, that way they look out for them as a kid and hopefully that stays with you when you begin driving". To me it makes sense!
    FYP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,862 ✭✭✭✭inforfun


    ronoc wrote: »
    Cycling on Irish roads is largely safe and for the most part motorists are considerate and give plenty of room.

    I don't agree with your pessimistic outlook on cycling on Irish roads at all.

    But I do a agree we should follow Hollands lead and make cycling a priority in Town centers and introduce something like strict liability.

    Better follow Hollands idea to separate traffic when and wherever possible first.
    Separate roads for bicycles and cars is the best way to stop getting annoyed at each other.

    I am Dutch, cycled my entire youth and then some when i still lived in Holland. Did 100Km+ tours, cycled to school, later work and for fun.
    Moved to Ireland and i gave up really quick. Too many clueless morons of both kinds on the roads.

    It has been a while but as a kid i did actually get "traffic lessons" in school. Then of course i had to take a theoretical exam for my drivers license and a practical exam after a professional driving instructor thought i was ready for it, before i was allowed to get in a car and drive it.


    Here some family member who got a full drivers license can teach you how to drive. That person might be one of those, what was it.... 400.000, that at 1 point just got their license without ever doing an exam in order to cut the waiting time for exams.


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