Huge ESB bill due to plumbing fault

looperman1000

My ex is living in a rented house. She has ESB in the house and the bill is in her name.
She has ran up a massive bill of over €1500

Plumber called and said there was a massive leak of all the hot water in the house. The immersion was on all the time as the water was leaking out....so it was constantly heating water

Citiziens Advice was rang and they said because the esb bill is in her name...she is liable. Is this true...any advice? Anything she can do...apart from the obvious... pay the bill...which she really doesnt have the money for?

Is there any way the landlord can cover some of the cost because of the plumbing problem/leak?

Sorry if wrong forum....

runawaybishop

looperman1000 wrote: »

My ex is living in a rented house. She has ESB in the house and the bill is in her name.
She has ran up a massive bill of over €1500

Plumber called and said there was a massive leak of all the hot water in the house. The immersion was on all the time as the water was leaking out....so it was constantly heating water

Citiziens Advice was rang and they said because the esb bill is in her name...she is liable. Is this true...any advice? Anything she can do...apart from the obvious... pay the bill...which she really doesnt have the money for?

Is there any way the landlord can cover some of the cost because of the plumbing problem/leak?

Sorry if wrong forum....

Any chance the landlord specifically told her to leave the immersion on all the time?

How long was the 1500 bill for, 2 months or more?

Ericdravancrow

runawaybishop wrote: »

Any chance the landlord specifically told her to leave the immersion on all the time?

How long was the 1500 bill for, 2 months or more?

The immersion has a switch, why didn't she just switch it off!!......
.....where did it leak too, surely the leak would've been obvious.

intheclouds

Did she not think it was weird and going to be expensive that the immersion had to be on all the time?

Where was the leaking hot water going? Didn't she notice it?

Fuzzy Clam

The immersion shouldnt be on all the time as there's a thermostat.
1500 for 2 months is excessive.

Effects

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

The immersion shouldnt be on all the time as there's a thermostat.
1500 for 2 months is excessive.

A stat is no good if the hot water is leaking. The stat won't reach the desired temperature to switch off.

runawaybishop

Plenty of people leave the immersion on as if your tank is well insulated the costs to keep it topped up are not much more and you have buckets of hot water when required.

Telling the op his ex should have it turned off doesn't really help now.

intheclouds

Never heard of anyone leaving it on all the time.

Thought it was a known joke about an Irish childhood that you were constantly told not to leave the immersion on.

Fuzzy Clam

I'm on the phone so can't post Effects reply to me but if the leak was so big that the immersion wouldn't switch off then the op would have a far bigger problem than a high ESB bill.

mickdw

I'd be on to landlord about the defect that caused this.
See if they can do something.

jsd1004

intheclouds wrote: »

Never heard of anyone leaving it on all the time.

Thought it was a known joke about an Irish childhood that you were constantly told not to leave the immersion on.

My immersion is on 24/7. well insulated tank. Costs about 60 euro a month. Cheaper than electric showers if you have a number of people.

intheclouds

jsd1004 wrote: »

My immersion is on 24/7. well insulated tank. Costs about 60 euro a month. Cheaper than electric showers if you have a number of people.

Technology must have moved on since my childhood.

Still doesn't explain how OPs ex didn't notice the leaked water?

looperman1000

Unfortunately i don't have all the details to hand. I don't know why the immersion was on all the time. I am not sure how well insulated the tank is..and where the leaking water was.

mickdw

intheclouds wrote: »

Technology must have moved on since my childhood.

Still doesn't explain how OPs ex didn't notice the leaked water?

It was obviously leaking somewhere that didn't actually result in the water entering the dwelling

whiskeyman

Was any damage caused by the leaking water?
Just wondering if home insurance has this covered and if any of the bill could be covered by it.

Seems unlikely though and unless your landlord is very sound, your OH is liable for it

Cuddlesworth

mickdw wrote: »

It was obviously leaking somewhere that didn't actually result in the water entering the dwelling

Not in any Irish house I have ever seen.

Fuzzy Clam

Back of the envelope calculation. Immersion is 3 Kw so Max 60 cents/hour rounding the rate up.
Equals to 864 Euros for a 2 month bill MAX excluding other usage.
Something else going on here.

davo10

mickdw wrote: »

It was obviously leaking somewhere that didn't actually result in the water entering the dwelling

Hot water from the immersion is already in the dwelling, it goes to hot water taps and showers, not directly outside. A leak of the magnitude to cause a bill like that would be plainly obvious, even it it was under the ground floor, tiles/wood floors/carpets would be damp, the walls would be damp. If it was upstairs, the ceiling would be stained/falling down. A hot water leak does not lead to a bill of that size if nothing is visible.

runawaybishop

davo10 wrote: »

Hot water from the immersion is already in the dwelling, it goes to hot water taps and showers, not directly outside. A leak of the magnitude to cause a bill like that would be plainly obvious, even it it was under the ground floor, tiles/wood floors/carpets would be damp, the walls would be damp. If it was upstairs, the ceiling would be stained/falling down. A hot water leak does not lead to a bill of that size if nothing is visible.

Could easily have leaked into an empty flat below the tenant. Does it really matter anyway?

davo10

runawaybishop wrote: »

Could easily have leaked into an empty flat below the tenant. Does it really matter anyway?

I think it does if the tenant wants the LL to pay for something that may not be wrong. Even if it leaked down, damp rises up.

Dr.Rieux

How long is she in the house? Has she had 2 estimated bills now this is the first read one? If the house was previously unoccupied the estimate could be very low, and this the guts of 6 months worth of bills since the last reading.

_Tombstone_

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

The immersion shouldnt be on all the time as there's a thermostat.
1500 for 2 months is excessive.

My sister got a whopper of a bill one time, the pump in the septic tank was on a chain and chain broke and the pump starting trying to pump 24/7 (something like that), bill was north of €2000.

It took hours to find the cause when the bill landed. Rang ESB for a chat and they said check meter and it was flying round-->Turn off stuff-->check the meter-->still flying round-->turn off more stuff-->still flying-->must be a broke/mistake-->hit the switch on fuse box-->not flying anymore-->jaysus, it's not a mistake-->turn off everything-->still flying:eek:-->haha.

ballindud

Landlord should fit a flow switch / pressure switch on hot water circuit, this would shut off Immersion immediately. Perhaps the Landlord has insurance policy which would cover this type of situation - I know that for my house if a fault happened like this then the house insurance would cover the expense incurred but not the fixing of the problem. In your case this would be the responsibility of the landlord. If he declines then just call the ESB and have the bill xferred to him - end of story.

Fuzzy Clam

Well done Tombstone but I've done the sums. Even running 24/7 the immersion can't run up that bill over 2 months.

A pump would have to be running continuous for many months, possibly years, to clock up a 2000 bill.

looperman1000

well i did check...and there is nothing else going on! That's what the bill is!

jennyhayes123

Immersion on all time shouldn't cause that bill. In my house I leave immersion on all time. I have meter, I put an extra €5 a week on. 6 of us living here. Maybe something else shooting up bill i
On her

runawaybishop

looperman1000 wrote: »

well i did check...and there is nothing else going on! That's what the bill is!

For 2 months usage?

Fuzzy Clam

@looperman1000. Can you confirm whether there was a previous estimated bill or bills.

And also is this for a 2 month bill.

looperman1000

yes for 2 months usage.

looperman1000

id have to find out if previous were estimated....but she was talking to the electricity crowd, and i presume this is current correct reading?

would it matter anyway if this was an actual reading, and the previous one or ones were estimated? Id have thought not?

antoinolachtnai

The occupier is responsible for the electricity bill. The supplier will not 'transfer' it to anyone else. The landlord does not have to pay it from the facts stated. Maybe if you could show the landlord was somehow negligent there would be a better chance. But there is no negligence here that I can see, just a water pipe that burst.

Call me Al

Are any taps leaking? We have a leaky dribbly shower head. If we don't turn the hot/cold control off to cold it drains my hot water tank away as quickly as the immersion heats it.

In my case I could well imagine that id have a huge bill if my immersion was permanently on and, as a result, was constantly heating all the cold water that was continuously replenishing the hot water tank from the cold attic tank.

Would it amount to €1500? I don't know... maybe.

Fuzzy Clam

It does matter if the previous bill or bills were estimated.
If they were not, the problem lies with the last 2 months and I can't see how that bill was racked up.
If they were estimated, then the bill may be accurate.

CiniO

It's all a matter of question if landlord is responsible to damage/loss caused by his faults in his property to tenant?

I don't know answer to that question, but generally if so should be the same for any kind of damage.

So if answer is YES, then f.e.
1. if attic tank starts leaking, and destroys tenants equipment (f.e. laptop. PC, Tele, valuable documents, etc) then landlord should cover the cost.
2. if leak causes increased ESB bill, then landlord should cover the cost.
3. if stairs break down and cause tenant to fall down and get injured, then landlord should cover the cost.

Rips

I can see how this bill could occur, having lived in an appartment with a very big well insulated tank and a pressure pump?(?) Excuse my ignorance of what it actually is. Anyway, whenever the taps come on, this thing kicks in an increases the pressure. Whatever this pump is, it itself will rack up the ESB. If you leave a tap dripping, it kicks in every 10mins, refilling the tank. The tank was efficient enough to have the immersion on a lot, 3/4 of the day on a timer, but if the taps were ever leaking, and the pump was running, my god would the bill rack up. Discovered this when there was a tap left dripping in unused bathroom. That and a combination of an estimated bill which was 'normal' usage meant the next bill was €1700. You would not see what was dripping out of the tap, but it was enough to keep the pump running and running. That and the cost of heating the new water being pumped into the tank, which when full would otherwise retain the heat for hours. If there was ever an actual leak... well..

As far as tanks where the immersion can be left on all day...Lived somewhere else that had a very small not well insulated insulated tank, left the immersion on by accident when I when home for a month over christmas... Bill was in credit due to overpayment on previous estimated bill! Though that tank only produced about 7mins of hot water.

Mrs OBumble

intheclouds wrote: »

Never heard of anyone leaving it on all the time.

Thought it was a known joke about an Irish childhood that you were constantly told not to leave the immersion on.

In some countries, the plumbing regulations don't actually allow a timer, due to the risk of Legionnaires disease if water is allowed to sit lukewarm for hours.

How more of ye don't die from it, I'll never know.

rsynnott

intheclouds wrote: »

Never heard of anyone leaving it on all the time.

Thought it was a known joke about an Irish childhood that you were constantly told not to leave the immersion on.

Most Irish childhoods happened before the advent of well insulated tanks...

WhIle I've never heard of leaving it on all the time, systems which turn on for about five hours on night rates (but are off most of that time due to the thermostat and well insulated tank) seem to be common in stuff built in the last decade or so. One of those could definitely get expensive if never shut off by the thermostat.

Edit: not 1500 in 2 months tho, just noticed the timeframe. Maybe switch everything off and see if the meter stops turning?

intheclouds

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In some countries, the plumbing regulations don't actually allow a timer, due to the risk of Legionnaires disease if water is allowed to sit lukewarm for hours.

How more of ye don't die from it, I'll never know.

You mean in some countries they're not allowed switch it off?

Effects

intheclouds wrote: »

Still doesn't explain how OPs ex didn't notice the leaked water?

Could be an old house with a suspended timber floor. Hot pipe runs under the floor and develops a leak. Leak just drains away into the ground.

Technology must have moved on since my childhood.

Of course it has, that's generally how technology works.

intheclouds

Effects wrote: »

Could be an old house with a suspended timber floor. Hot pipe runs under the floor and develops a leak. Leak just drains away into the ground.

Surely with that level of leak youd still get rising damp?

Musketeer4

intheclouds wrote: »

Never heard of anyone leaving it on all the time.

Thought it was a known joke about an Irish childhood that you were constantly told not to leave the immersion on.

That's from back in the day when most tanks were just bare copper with no insulation, tank would be gone cold in an hour or 2 so immersion left on would burn up the kWhrs.

At the end of the day the electric supplier has no case to answer. The units of electricity were used within the house, correct? Its not the electric suppliers fault that there was a leak in the tank ffs.

If the leak was as great as you say how come she didn't notice?

She is liable. End of. Her only way of softening the blow would be to try haggle some of the cost off on the landlord since he's responsible for maintenance of the property. However he will likely say "you never told me there was a leak so what was I supposed to have done"?

Effects

intheclouds wrote: »

Surely with that level of leak youd still get rising damp?

Probably not. A leak doesn't have to be that big to empty a tank of hot water.

runawaybishop

Musketeer4 wrote: »

She is liable. End of. Her only way of softening the blow would be to try haggle some of the cost off on the landlord since he's responsible for maintenance of the property. However he will likely say "you never told me there was a leak so what was I supposed to have done"?

And if the landlord specifically told her she was fine to leave the immersion on 24/7 and the bill was on for 2 months usage with no other way for her to know there was an issue? Still end of, yeah?

Ms Doubtfire1

oi-thats a big bill.Here's what I would do:

1)Check with the ESB or whatever provider you are with.See if Bill is estimated or actual.Check the readings on the bill vs whats on your meter.
2) report fault to LL for repair BUT request a report from an independent plumber to see how long that leak was there.
3) get on to the tenancy board for advise IF it turns out the property was neglected.
4) Arrange for a payment plan with the electricity provider to avoid being cut off while this gets sorted out.

good luck.

maximum12

Try discussing it with the supplier. If that doesn't work try writing to the supplier explaining the situation to try to knock down the bill a good bit. While they should have their cost covered it's not really right that they should be profiting from an equipment fault / misfortune of their customer.

Not an exact comparison but I had a situation before with vodafone where a device downloaded over a gig of background data while roaming while the owner thought they were connected to the hotel wifi. The roaming bill was well over a grand and they agreed to write off almost all of it as it was a genuine mistake.

The_Conductor

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In some countries, the plumbing regulations don't actually allow a timer, due to the risk of Legionnaires disease if water is allowed to sit lukewarm for hours.

How more of ye don't die from it, I'll never know.

Simples- this is a sealed hot water tank.
Legionella bacterium cannot survive 140F/60C for more than 30 minutes.
A single cycle of the tank- kills of any bacterium you're likely to encounter in a domestic setting- including Legionella.

If you don't heat your water to 60c/140F - 2 hours @ 50c/120F will also kill most bacterium.

If it were a cold water tank- or indeed, not a sealed unit- akin to those they commonly use in NZ/AU/USA- it would be of far more concern..........

dazed+confused

intheclouds wrote:

Technology must have moved on since my childhood.

It really hasn't, it's a total misconception that you save a fortune by turning the immersion on to wash the dishes and then leg it upstairs to turn it off again, then back on to have a shower and hour later. Heating water the first 10 degrees uses 50% of the total energy. Much more cost effective to use an insulated tank and leave it on for your waking hours.

Effects

dazed+confused wrote: »

Much more cost effective to use an insulated tank and leave it on for your waking hours.

That's the technology part. It's the science part that you discussed that hasn't changed.

Musketeer4

dazed+confused wrote: »

It really hasn't, it's a total misconception that you save a fortune by turning the immersion on to wash the dishes and then leg it upstairs to turn it off again, then back on to have a shower and hour later. Heating water the first 10 degrees uses 50% of the total energy. Much more cost effective to use an insulated tank and leave it on for your waking hours.

Bolded bit. That would only be a valid statement if you only intended to heat the water by 20 degrees.
The specific heat capacity of water does not change with temperature.

dazed+confused

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Bolded bit. That would only be a valid statement if you only intended to heat the water by 20 degrees.
The specific heat capacity of water does not change with temperature.

But you are heating more than water when you heat an immersion cylinder.

Michael D Not Higgins

dazed+confused wrote: »

But you are heating more than water when you heat an immersion cylinder.

You're still heating the cylinder as the water gets hotter too. I would contend that the cost of heating rises as the temperature rises due to higher losses at higher temperatures.