TUI discussion

mirrorwall14

I think given the current scenario it might be useful to have a knowledge base for teachers and those who may end up teaching in TUI only schools or the TUI/ASTI schools. I'm on our union committee in school and it's been an endless line of questions through the first week back

If you are starting in an ETB school in particular you need to find out if your school is recognised as TUI only or if it is on the list of designated community colleges. There's a misconception that if you are ETB then you are TUI.

If you are in a TUI school then the LRA applies to you whether you join or not

If you are in a designated community college then you are only in the LRA if you are TUI. Both non union and ASTI members are considered outside the LRA.

Some key things if outside LRA from for whatever reason
-CIDs revert to four years (note our ETB did not physically issue any CID contracts this summer to our school, speculation is that it was on purpose so if you don't declare union membership you won't get it)
-No payment for S and S at the end of September 2016 and 2017
-no protection from redployment
-increment freeze

If inside LRA in TUI You have agreed
-to continue S and S indefinitely with a pay scale adjustment for it
-that the government/union will negotiate for new entrants
-to do the new JC
-to continue croke park hours

TUI and DES have just released a new circular in relation to part time CIDs. My reading of it is that what happened to me, where a principal refuses to increase a part time CID despite hiring another teacher of their subject will not happen in the future

man_no_plan

Very useful post, however, the New JC and LRA are independent of each other and JC had no monetary penalty attached to implementation. All teachers regardless of school have to teach the revised syllabi as they issue.

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

If inside LRA You have agreed
-to continue S and S indefinitely with a pay scale adjustment for it
-that the government/union will negotiate for new entrants
-to do the new JC
-to continue croke park hours

mirrorwall14

man_no_plan wrote: »

Very useful post, however, the New JC and LRA are independent of each other and JC had no monetary penalty attached to implementation. All teachers regardless of school have to teach the revised syllabi as they issue.

Sorry I should clarify, I was under the impression that assessing the new JC is part of LRA as you agree to implement curriculum reform? Could be wrong. If so I'm happy to delete!

Edited: Just changed it to TUI as they are doing the new JC anyways

Notorious

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

-CIDs revert to four years (note our ETB did not physically issue any CID contracts this summer, speculation is that it was on purpose so if you don't declare union membership you won't get it)

Just mentioning that I received my CID (2 year) from my ETB during the summer - the day before the ASTI voted to reject the LRA (I don't know if this was a coincidence or an unusual touch of class from the powers that be). This could also be related to our school solely having TUI representation.

mirrorwall14

Notorious wrote: »

Just mentioning that I received my CID (2 year) from my ETB during the summer - the day before the ASTI voted to reject the LRA (I don't know if this was a coincidence or an unusual touch of class from the powers that be). This could also be related to our school solely having TUI representation.

Yeah I edited above to specify in my school and I am in a mixed union school (even though we actually have no ASTI on staff)

Notorious

So then you're all TUI members? In that case your ETB not have issued CID contracts, no? Or will it be a case that you'll sign a form stating your Union and CIDs will be awarded?

mirrorwall14

Notorious wrote: »

So then you're all TUI members? In that case your ETB not have issued CID contracts, no? Or will it be a case that you'll sign a form stating your Union and CIDs will be awarded?

We are designated as mixed (even if that's not the reality in the school) so form has to be completed and our guess is that the CIDs will then be issued only to TUI members. Non members have FEMPI applied so no ward report CIDs

r93kaey5p2izun

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We are designated as mixed (even if that's not the reality in the school) so form has to be completed and our guess is that the CIDs will then be issued only to TUI members. Non members have FEMPI applied so no ward report CIDs

What's the feeling on the ground regarding filling in the form and non nembers being left under FEMPI? There's a lot of upset about this in my place. Non-union members are very bitter and angry about it all. It's causing a lot of grief with lots of recriminations from both sides.

I respect their right to not join a union and think this is unfair treatment of them if they do the LRA work, but at the same time feel that not joining means they will have to fight their own battles, such as this, as they occur. But I'm not happy that we are being used to identify them with the form.

TheDriver

Everyone is doing what they need to do in our place, both unions and non union, no discussion about it really. Forms being signed etc

deiseindublin

Francis Bitter Spectroscope wrote: »

What's the feeling on the ground regarding filling in the form and non nembers being left under FEMPI? There's a lot of upset about this in my place. Non-union members are very bitter and angry about it all. It's causing a lot of grief with lots of recriminations from both sides.

I respect their right to not join a union and think this is unfair treatment of them if they do the LRA work, but at the same time feel that not joining means they will have to fight their own battles, such as this, as they occur. But I'm not happy that we are being used to identify them with the form.

Agree with all of this Francis Bitter Spectroscope, didn't fill in my form yet, don't reallly want to but if I'm stuck with LRA2 and doing S&S I'm the only loser by not filling it in.

mirrorwall14

Francis Bitter Spectroscope wrote: »

What's the feeling on the ground regarding filling in the form and non nembers being left under FEMPI? There's a lot of upset about this in my place. Non-union members are very bitter and angry about it all. It's causing a lot of grief with lots of recriminations from both sides.

I respect their right to not join a union and think this is unfair treatment of them if they do the LRA work, but at the same time feel that not joining means they will have to fight their own battles, such as this, as they occur. But I'm not happy that we are being used to identify them with the form.

Even though we are designated mixed we don't actually have any ASTI on staff so its being filled in by most and the non members are scrambling to join the TUI in time though there's a lot of people not happy about the threats

r93kaey5p2izun

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Even though we are designated mixed we don't actually have any ASTI on staff so its being filled in by most and the non members are scrambling to join the TUI in time though there's a lot of people not happy about the threats

Yes we're the same, designated mixed but only TUI in reality. But there is a lot of anger at us from non-union members over the form. They're very definite about not joining.

mirrorwall14

One person had a major issue with the form but in the end signed up because they are a young teacher (CIDs). An amazing number of people in arrears suddenly got their affairs in order... Overall it was accepted that you either join or lose out. A few wouldn't be singing the praises of the government but only that one person was very vocal

I do find that interesting thought. I'm fairly blunt in response so maybe I haven't heard the anger. My attitude is you were happy to take all the good stuff that unions fought for so tough ****, join up or take the consequences.

deiseindublin

I have a major problem with signing it and I'm actually TUI. I don't think we should be shopping our ASTI colleagues across the country by signing it. Surely there was another way.

implausible

deiseindublin wrote:

I have a major problem with signing it and I'm actually TUI. I don't think we should be shopping our ASTI colleagues across the country by signing it. Surely there was another way.

But are we shopping them? They voted to reject the LRA. These are the consequences.

deiseindublin

Well, why don't they ask ASTI and non-union members to sign about their status, don't agree with us doing it.

implausible

deiseindublin wrote: »

Well, why don't they ask ASTI and non-union members to sign about their status, don't agree with us doing it.

It's easier to get people to sign for something when there's a 'reward' at the end of it. Also, there are fewer teachers covered by LRA in secondary.

Getting people to sign up to not get something would never work.

Notorious

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

My attitude is you were happy to take all the good stuff that unions fought for so tough ****, join up or take the consequences.

Excuse my ignorance, but what did the union fight for? As a relatively new teacher I can only see how I've been bent over by the unions.

xtralong

Notorious wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but what did the union fight for? As a relatively new teacher I can only see how I've been bent over by the unions.

They fought to maintain salary scales and allowances for existing members and sold you out in the process.

mirrorwall14

xtralong wrote: »

They fought to maintain salary scales and allowances for existing members and sold you out in the process.

Do you honestly think that our terms and conditions would be in their current state if the unions hadn't been there to stop them selling us out even more? Have you seen the salary scales for the army? They can't take industrial action.

Do I think the current ridiculous situation with salary scales and allowances is outrageous? Yes.

Do I think that there would be ANY hope of getting salaries brought up now if everyone had had their pay reduced which apparently is what people seem to think the the unions should have done "in solidarity"? No. We'd all be sitting on the lower ones

Yes there is crap to be cleaned up but despite the finances of the country falling completely apart things are resolving themselves as the unions continue to fight the government.

To list some of the recent things for new recruits
1. The WARD report. This entitles teachers to become CID (Permanent) faster than even legislation allows for. I was seven years teaching before I got my CID. This is a massive improvement
2. Circular 0059/16. This ensures that principals have to give hours to available staff or part time CID holders BEFORE anyone is hired in their subjects. This will eliminate a lot of the faffing around that ETBs in particular are notorious for with two or three teachers being hired for the same post.
3. Clarification that a teacher can and should be (if appropriate) hired as a CID. In other wards if the hours are there, are going to be there indefinitely and not suitable for a part timer already in the school then the person can be hired on an immediate CID contract

The main negotiations between the government TUI and INTO at the moment is to get the qualification allowances combined into the new salary scales thus increasing them substantially using the Firefighters as the precedent. The word at the branch meeting I attended is that the combination into the scale is so that what happened the last time cannot happen again (the removal of allowances retrospectively) and that this is going to happen

mirrorwall14

Actually you know what, I'm going to take a break here for a few days. Branch meeting and 3hrs of croke park in the one week plus umpteen repeated basic questions from staff members about things they should know at this stage apparently has resulted in a very very grumpy mirrorwall....

deiseindublin

Agreed MW. I have a pain in my face from non-union members thinking it's unfair that they don't have the same 'deal' as us. I'd gladly swap my TUI hat for an ASTI one but so be it.

I'd still prefer being represented though. Don't think I'd have much negotiating rights walking in Marlborough St myself and telling them I want a better deal. I might not like all the outcomes but I presume some portion of my sub in the last 20+ years went towards the salaries of those that have brokered these circular 59, 45 etc.

Notorious

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The word at the branch meeting I attended is that the combination into the scale is so that what happened the last time cannot happen again (the removal of allowances retrospectively) and that this is going to happen

Interesting; so instead of an allowance we'd all get a slight pay rise? I guess this would make sense considering our NQTs are all graduating with a PME.

evolving_doors

Just reading from INTO member posting in the Voice for Teachers forum about what they are getting for S&S

... €3 per week?

How are they working that out?

For anyone thinking of leaving ASTI because the Government is threatening not to pay S&S, think again.
I am an INTO member. We were advised repeatedly by the INTO leadership to vote yes to the LRA and so "we" did.
INTO announced on 6/9/16 that INTO secured the first half of the cut S&S pay and it would be included in our 8/9/2016 pay.
Guess how much I received in my pay today?
€3.23c extra!
That's for doing yard duty for free for several years, after it was cut, and the big fanfare of the PAY INCREASE we would get thanks to the LRA.
It is not a pay increase, it is a tiny, tiny step towards pay restoration. We have to wait another full year to get the second half of the S&S (another €3?). Meanwhile, the Government doesn't have to wait a millisecond for me to do yard duty in all weathers instead of eating my lunch. Thanks, INTO (NOT!).
Well done, ASTI, for seeing through the LRA lies.
It is time that TUI and INTO members joined you in your fight for LPTs and all teachers.
€3 is a very cheap buy out of our silence and obedience.
Not good enough, INTO and TUI.
Added by VFT: Here is a link to the INTO announcement and clarification - today's pay includes 5 days with the S&S. The 22nd Sept pay will "reflect the full increase" -

joebloggs32

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Just reading from INTO member posting in the Voice for Teachers forum about what they are getting for S&S

... €3 per week?

How are they working that out?

The S&S money is only payable after September 1st. I suspect today's payslip for primary teachers overlaps into August. The gross increase per week will be about €15. I know we pay a lot in tax, but not that much.

man_no_plan

joebloggs32 wrote: »

The S&S money is only payable after September 1st. I suspect today's payslip for primary teachers overlaps into August. The gross increase per week will be about €15. I know we pay a lot in tax, but not that much.

Its the usual hyper stuff. Facebook lols.

doc_17

Yeah whilst the increase is not great people should do their own sums before posting calculations like that.

deiseindublin

Or better yet, do their sums before voting for a meagre €796 before tax.

I'd say most will be about €25 net a month better off, tops. It's not worth it but some eejits thought it was great that we were getting extra money.

joebloggs32

deiseindublin wrote: »

Or better yet, do their sums before voting for a meagre €796 before tax.

I'd say most will be about €25 net a month better off, tops. It's not worth it but some eejits thought it was great that we were getting extra money.

Yes but you can double it this time next year too.

deiseindublin

Still not worth the few concessions the LRA brought.

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Just reading from INTO member posting in the Voice for Teachers forum about what they are getting for S&S

... €3 per week?

How are they working that out?

Idiots like that shouldn't be allowed out in public. They are the same idiots that get their faces in front of the camera when the reporters are looking for a soundbite and make the rest of the teaching profession look bad.

The fortnight for pay probably only covered 1 day of the new S&S payment, I work it out to be about €15 per week.

doc_17

If the increase is €800 then it'll be about €16 gross and probably €6 net per week.

2011abc

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Idiots like that shouldn't be allowed out in public. They are the same idiots that get their faces in front of the camera when the reporters are looking for a soundbite and make the rest of the teaching profession look bad.

The fortnight for pay probably only covered 1 day of the new S&S payment, I work it out to be about €15 per week.

If one is doing S&S for €3 a day I don't think they're the only idiot .How much per hour does that work out at?!

man_no_plan

2011abc wrote: »

If one is doing S&S for €3 a day I don't think they're the only idiot .How much per hour does that work out at?!

You get it every week of the year, and you do 43 hours work for it, if the 15euro figure is accurate its €18 an hour, €36 an hour after full restoration.

You might as well saw it's €796 a year which is 2.18 per day! You don't do it every day though.

Edit, not saying its great money but there's no point mis-representing it either

joebloggs32

2011abc wrote: »

If one is doing S&S for €3 a day I don't think they're the only idiot .How much per hour does that work out at?!

You did it for free the last two years!

jjdonegal

Have people got S&S payment yet? Due to get it soon but wondering what people are getting. My payslips go to Donegal so will be weekend before I can analyse my one.

rainbowtrout

jjdonegal wrote: »

Have people got S&S payment yet? Due to get it soon but wondering what people are getting. My payslips go to Donegal so will be weekend before I can analyse my one.

Yes, got paid today (GRETB). We get paid fortnightly. Am up about €12 on net pay.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, got paid today (GRETB). We get paid fortnightly. Am up about €12 on net pay.

Now that the books are balanced and the cash is in...
If possible, would you consider foregoing that €12 to opt out of S&S, or would you be happy to continue given a choice?

Do you think the time you have worked was worth €12?

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Now that the books are balanced and the cash is in...
If possible, would you consider foregoing that €12 to opt out of S&S, or would you be happy to continue given a choice?

Do you think the time you have worked was worth €12?

I voted No to LRA, so I don't really see it as relevant. However the motion carried, so I have to go along with the majority vote. TUI teachers are getting paid for S&S and we are required to do it along with Croke Park hours. If I have to do both of those and in return for compliance they are going to give me a rise in my increment, I'm not going to refuse it.

I wasn't willing to take a cut to my basic wage a couple of years ago in order to opt out of S&S. Only one teacher in my school did.

I still believe teachers should be paid the full substitution rate for doing S&S as that is what it is.

The_Valeyard

Nothing on my payslip

r93kaey5p2izun

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Nothing on my payslip

It won't be on your payslip separately. It's part of the salary scale. Salary amount should just be increased.

The_Valeyard

Francis Bitter Spectroscope wrote: »

It won't be on your payslip separately. It's part of the salary scale. Salary amount should just be increased.

Yeah that's what i mean, no difference whatsoever.

r93kaey5p2izun

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Yeah that's what i mean, no difference whatsoever.

That's strange. Are you in a TUI only school? Or did you return the form if in one that's officially mixed union (even if not actually mixed in reality)?

I'm up just over €11 for the fortnight. I voted no anyway but no way do I think this is adequate compensation for S&S, certainly not in my school. I would definitely have taken the cut to opt out if possible. Around 15 teachers opted out in my school.

The_Valeyard

Francis Bitter Spectroscope wrote: »

That's strange. Are you in a TUI only school? Or did you return the form if in one that's officially mixed union (even if not actually mixed in reality)?

I'm up just over €11 for the fortnight. I voted no anyway but no way do I think this is adequate compensation for S&S, certainly not in my school. I would definitely have taken the cut to opt out if possible. Around 15 teachers opted out in my school.

Mixed school. Forms were handed in.

Bizarre here today. Some staff didnt even get paid. Will have to get on the phone and see what's going on.

Also confusion. Some staff were expecting a lumpsum for previous work. Head melted before the day has even begun.

joebloggs32

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I voted No to LRA, so I don't really see it as relevant. However the motion carried, so I have to go along with the majority vote. TUI teachers are getting paid for S&S and we are required to do it along with Croke Park hours. If I have to do both of those and in return for compliance they are going to give me a rise in my increment, I'm not going to refuse it.

I wasn't willing to take a cut to my basic wage a couple of years ago in order to opt out of S&S. Only one teacher in my school did.

I still believe teachers should be paid the full substitution rate for doing S&S as that is what it is.

My back of the envelope calculations would see a gross payment of €37 per hour for S&S work if you delivered 43 hours starting next September. Its obviously only half that this year.

joebloggs32

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Mixed school. Forms were handed in.

Bizarre here today. Some staff didnt even get paid. Will have to get on the phone and see what's going on.

Also confusion. Some staff were expecting a lumpsum for previous work. Head melted before the day has even begun.

Same in my place with regard to the lump sum!

man_no_plan

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Same in my place with regard to the lump sum!

It's a beating some of them need.

implausible

joebloggs32 wrote:

My back of the envelope calculations would see a gross payment of €37 per hour for S&S work if you delivered 43 hours starting next September. Its obviously only half that this year.

At least you worked it out. Lost count of the number of complaints I heard today about it being worth nothing and "I wouldn't have voted for it if I knew it was this little". They did know, they were given the figures and this is from people who have been doing it for free for the last 3 years!

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

At least you worked it out. Lost count of the number of complaints I heard today about it being worth nothing and "I wouldn't have voted for it if I knew it was this little". They did know, they were given the figures and this is from people who have been doing it for free for the last 3 years!

This is the thing. For or against you should know exactly what you were voting for.

rainbowtrout

Francis Bitter Spectroscope wrote: »

That's strange. Are you in a TUI only school? Or did you return the form if in one that's officially mixed union (even if not actually mixed in reality)?

I'm up just over €11 for the fortnight. I voted no anyway but no way do I think this is adequate compensation for S&S, certainly not in my school. I would definitely have taken the cut to opt out if possible. Around 15 teachers opted out in my school.

Was there a reason so many opted out? What impact does it have on S&S in your school?

rainbowtrout

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Bizarre here today. Some staff didnt even get paid. Will have to get on the phone and see what's going on.

Sounds like a complete omnishambles all round. The increment is probably the least of it if some staff didn't get paid at all.