Did Tipperary used to be two counties?

KingBrian2

Not entirely certain about this but correct me if I am wrong that Tipperary was originally North Tipperary Co & South Tipperary Co.

Johngoose

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Not entirely certain about this but correct me if I am wrong that Tipperary was originally North Tipperary Co & South Tipperary Co.

They have Tipperary South and Tipperary North on their number plates on their cars,the only county to do so,which is peculiar.

Water John

Amalgamated in the last few years, T is now the prefix for reg.
Don't know the history of it.
Two LA's based in Nenagh and Clonmel.

RobbingBandit

Wikipedia say between 1838 and 2014 there were indeed two Tipps.

KingBrian2

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Wikipedia say between 1838 and 2014 there were indeed two Tipps.

Hold on if that was the case that means their was 33 counties in Ireland & 27 in the Republic.

vicwatson

North and South Riding I think is what they were called

RobbingBandit

Yeah its weird but wikipedia is not the greatest source by any means. I don't think it was literally two counties more two separate duristictions for voting purposes but then again it might be worth further exploration,

the dark phantom

1 county with 2 different authorities running it, The term Riding is a county subdivision for administration such as East Riding of Yorkshire.

RobbingBandit

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Hold on if that was the case that means their was 33 counties in Ireland & 27 in the Republic.

You could look at it as geographical identity same as Dublin city and north county Dublin being a description of sectors of Dublin on a whole. But not being separate entities.

4ensic15

Counties in Ireland up to 1898 were judicial, not administrative. Tipperary was divided into 2 judicial Counties and so had 2 grand juries. The Local Government Act of 1898 created the current administrative counties. That Act specifically declared that Tipperary was to be one county but that it could consist of 2 ridings and the administrative functions could be performed as if they were being performed on behalf of a county.

KingBrian2

4ensic15 wrote: »

Counties in Ireland up to 1898 were judicial, not administrative. Tipperary was divided into 2 judicial Counties and so had 2 grand juries. The Local Government Act of 1898 created the current administrative counties. That Act specifically declared that Tipperary was to be one county but that it could consist of 2 ridings and the administrative functions could be performed as if they were being performed on behalf of a county.

Their was originally a Queens county in modern day Laoise. I believe Queens county were composed of Offaly & Laoise.

4ensic15

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Their was originally a Queens county in modern day Laoise. I believe Queens county were composed of Offaly & Laoise.

Laois was Queens County and Offaly was Kings County.

laoch na mona

north and south riding, two local authorities, so to separate colonial administrations back in the day. I think it has it's origins in Tipperary being a particularly violent region in the 18th an 19th centuries which meant it was easier to rule if split in two. There was a lot of agrarian secret societies and faction fighting in the county

KingBrian2

Well in any case congrats to Tipperary for winning the All Ireland final today. Deserved winners.

panchosanza

c.1210 to 1328: county Tipperary

1328 to 1715: county of the liberty of Tipperary and county of the cross of Tipperary

1715 to 1838: county Tipperary

1838 to 1898: county Tipperary; north riding and south riding

1898 to 2001: administrative county of Tipperary North Riding and administrative county of Tipperary South Riding

2001 to 2014: county of North Tipperary and county of South Tipperary

2014 to date: county Tipperary

tabbey

Larger counties were traditionally divided into ridings.

Most people just think of Yorkshire, which had three ridings - East, West and North prior to 1974 local government reorganisation.

Many people forget that Cork, Galway and Tipperary were historically divided into ridings;

Cork - East and West.
Galway - East and West.
Tipperary - North and South.

These were large counties by area, and pre - famine, by population also, Tipp was almost half a million in 1841.

For policing purposes, each riding had a County Inspector (Chief Superintendent).

When the county councils were created under the 1898 Act, only Tipperary got two county councils, but Cork had a County Council and a City Council.

Tipperary was amalgamated in 2014 by Phil Hogan,as a Kilkenny man he was probably jealous of Tipp having two co cos.

Balmed Out

County Desmond was split in 1606 into Cork and kerry is another that changed

tabbey

4ensic15 wrote: »

Laois was Queens County and Offaly was Kings County.

After independence, the state could not tolerate the names Kingstown, Queenstown, Kings County and Queen's County, and they were scrapped without much thought of what should replace them.

Q County became Leix, then Laoghaise, finally Laois.

K County for some reason I could never understand, became Offaly. It was a most inappropriate title, as the baronies of East Offaly and West Offaly are both entirely in County Kildare.

Nobody will change it now, but for the sake of historical researchers, the powers that were in 1922, should have chosen any name but Offaly.

Water John

I think present day Cork has 2 police divisions. The County LA actually operates as 3. North, South and West.
Very interested in some of the older divisions put up here.

panchosanza

tabbey wrote: »

Larger counties were traditionally divided into ridings.

Most people just think of Yorkshire, which had three ridings - East, West and North prior to 1974 local government reorganisation.

Many people forget that Cork, Galway and Tipperary were historically divided into ridings;

Cork - East and West.
Galway - East and West.
Tipperary - North and South.

These were large counties by area, and pre - famine, by population also, Tipp was almost half a million in 1841.

For policing purposes, each riding had a County Inspector (Chief Superintendent).

When the county councils were created under the 1898 Act, only Tipperary got two county councils, but Cork had a County Council and a City Council.

Tipperary's ridings had separate assizes, which were the closest thing to a county council. Galway and Cork's ridings were only for the less important "general sessions of the peace". The post-1898 county borough of Cork corresponded to the pre-1898 County of the City of Cork, which was separated from the County of Cork under its 1608 charter. That's why Cork had both a City Gaol (now a museum) and a County Gaol (on the site of UCC).

4ensic15

All of this begs the question, is Fingal a county?

KingBrian2

4ensic15 wrote: »

All of this begs the question, is Fingal a county?

I'd have to say yes from my research and I am familiar with Dublin history it was originally Hiberno Norse, the Vikings long before the Normans came settled beyond the walls of Dublin and the mixed Gaelic Viking community spoke a language called Fingallian. Later under the Normans it became a Lordship.

tabbey

4ensic15 wrote: »

All of this begs the question, is Fingal a county?

Yes.
Under the 1993 act, it is an administrative county.

All counties started sometime, some during Norman times, the last was Wicklow which gained independence from Dublin in 1606. Leitrim was only created a few years earlier.
Dublin itself grew over the centuries, a thousand years ago, the area north of the Liffey, mainly Fingal, was part of the fifth province of Meath.

So it is in the power of the government to create and abolish counties, or change their boundaries.

The absolute loyalty to a county is a relatively recent phenomenon, much influenced by the GAA county based structure which developed during the gaelic revival period.

tabbey

panchosanza wrote: »

Tipperary's ridings had separate assizes, which were the closest thing to a county council. Galway and Cork's ridings were only for the less important "general sessions of the peace". The post-1898 county borough of Cork corresponded to the pre-1898 County of the City of Cork, which was separated from the County of Cork under its 1608 charter. That's why Cork had both a City Gaol (now a museum) and a County Gaol (on the site of UCC).

Similarly Dublin had two prisons;
The Richmond penitentiary was the city prison, run by Dublin Corporation, while Kilmainham was the county gaol, the responsibility of the county grand jury.

I assume the other county boroughs had separate prisons, and indeed many metropolitan boroughs. Drogheda, for example had it's own gaol, while the county gaol was in Dundalk.
The latter can be visited in three ways;
The offices and governor's residence now being the Garda station. The north wing is now an art gallery, but the best for any historian, is the south wing, now Louth Archives, cell 14 being the reading room.

Peregrinus

4ensic15 wrote: »

All of this begs the question, is Fingal a county?

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I'd have to say yes . . .

tabbey wrote: »

Yes.
Under the 1993 act, it is an administrative county.

Depends on what you mean by "county".

As tabbey point out, under the Local Government (Dublin) Act 1993 Fingal is an "administrative county". But, then, so are Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and South Dublin. And, under the Local Government Act 1898 so are Dublin City, Limerick City, Cork City and Waterford City. (Also Belfast and Derry, though NI local government has since been radically restructured and counties no longer play any role.) Galway City also became an administrative county in 1986. The were all "county boroughs", and under the local government legislation every county borough was an administrative county.

But if you're talking about counties not as units of local government administration but as geographical entities or areas which enjoy cultural identification and recognition, then I think we still have the conventional list of 32 counties in Ireland.

Jesus.

4ensic15 wrote: »

All of this begs the question, is Fingal a county?

Oldest county in Ireland. Chartered by King John himself. Down with the Dubs!

panchosanza

Peregrinus wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by "county".

As tabbey point out, under the Local Government (Dublin) Act 1993 Fingal is an "administrative county". But, then, so are Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and South Dublin. And, under the Local Government Act 1898 so are Dublin City, Limerick City, Cork City and Waterford City. (Also Belfast and Derry, though NI local government has since been radically restructured and counties no longer play any role.) Galway City also became an administrative county in 1986. The were all "county boroughs", and under the local government legislation every county borough was an administrative county.

The 1898 act had "administrative county" and "county borough". The 2001 act renamed these "county" and "city" (which was confusing as Kilkenny was previously a city but not a county borough, and Dublin was previously a county but not an administrative county). The 2014 act merged Limerick city and county (likewise Waterford) into a single unit, which even more confusing is termed a "city and county". Therefore the state currently is divided into 26 counties and 3 cities and 2 cities and counties.

Peregrinus

panchosanza wrote: »

The 1898 act had "administrative county" and "county borough". The 2001 act renamed these "county" and "city" (which was confusing as Kilkenny was previously a city but not a county borough, and Dublin was previously a county but not an administrative county). The 2014 act merged Limerick city and county (likewise Waterford) into a single unit, which even more confusing is termed a "city and county". Therefore the state currently is divided into 26 counties and 3 cities and 2 cities and counties.

Yes, but my point is that we were all taught from early chilhood that Ireland had 32 counties, of which 26 were in the Republic and 6 were in Northern Ireland. This was the case before the Local Government Act 1898, it was the case after that Act was passed, and it is the case today. We're obviously using "county" here in an older sense that the technical sense employed in the local government legislation.

As well as "administrative counties" there are, or used to be "parliamentary counties". They largely but not entirely coincided with local government units (Tipperary, for instance, was a single parliamentary county) and were the units which elected members of Parliament to Westminster. Each county returned two members, and in addition one or more urban areas within the county might be declare a "parliamentary borough" returning one or two additional members. (Parliamentary boroughs had additional representation, but they were still part of the parliamentary county.)

So, while the term "county" might have a specialist technical definition when used in the context of local government legislation, and a different specialist technical definition for the purposes of parliamentary elections, I think it also has a common definition when used as a geographical unit, or as a unit commanding local allegiance, identity, etc, and for most of us this is in fact the dominant meaning of the word. In that sense Ireland had, and still has, 32 counties, citizens of Waterford identify with County Waterford, Belfast is in County Down, etc.

laoch na mona

Peregrinus wrote: »

Belfast is in County Down, etc.

Belfast is in Antrim

panchosanza

Peregrinus wrote: »

So, while the term "county" might have a specialist technical definition when used in the context of local government legislation, and a different specialist technical definition for the purposes of parliamentary elections, I think it also has a common definition when used as a geographical unit, or as a unit commanding local allegiance, identity, etc, and for most of us this is in fact the dominant meaning of the word.

I don't disagree with that, but your technical definition of "administrative county" was wrong: "county boroughs" were not "administrative counties", though the two were similar.

laoch na mona wrote: »

Belfast is in Antrim

Belfast borough was originally in County Antrim; the River Lagan is the boundary with County Down. The borough was extended across the river in 1853 (edit -- not 1896, as I had believed: the earlier boundary change took in Ballymacarrett and Ballynafeigh (aka Ballynafoy)

feargale

laoch na mona wrote: »

Belfast is in Antrim

It has taken from both counties.

Peregrinus

panchosanza wrote: »

I don't disagree with that, but your technical definition of "administrative county" was wrong: "county boroughs" were not "administrative counties", though the two were similar.

No, county boroughs were administrative counties.

mansize

tabbey wrote: »

After independence, the state could not tolerate the names Kingstown, Queenstown, Kings County and Queen's County, and they were scrapped without much thought of what should replace them.

Q County became Leix, then Laoghaise, finally Laois.

K County for some reason I could never understand, became Offaly. It was a most inappropriate title, as the baronies of East Offaly and West Offaly are both entirely in County Kildare.

Nobody will change it now, but for the sake of historical researchers, the powers that were in 1922, should have chosen any name but Offaly.

Well it's our name now! Kildare can fup off

mansize

tabbey wrote: »

After independence, the state could not tolerate the names Kingstown, Queenstown, Kings County and Queen's County, and they were scrapped without much thought of what should replace them.

Q County became Leix, then Laoghaise, finally Laois.

K County for some reason I could never understand, became Offaly. It was a most inappropriate title, as the baronies of East Offaly and West Offaly are both entirely in County Kildare.

Nobody will change it now, but for the sake of historical researchers, the powers that were in 1922, should have chosen any name but Offaly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Uí_Failghe

Snickers Man

tabbey wrote: »

Larger counties were traditionally divided into ridings.

Most people just think of Yorkshire, which had three ridings - East, West and North prior to 1974 local government reorganisation.

Many people forget that Cork, Galway and Tipperary were historically divided into ridings;

Cork - East and West.
Galway - East and West.
Tipperary - North and South.

Riding is a corruption of the old Norse Thryding which means a third.

Yorkshire is indeed divided, historically, into three ridings. But Galway, Cork and Tipperary only have two "thirds" each.

Always thought people from around there had a bit missing......

laoch na mona

panchosanza wrote: »

Belfast borough was originally in County Antrim; the River Lagan is the boundary with County Down. The borough was extended across the river in 1896.

feargale wrote: »

It has taken from both counties.

2/3rds of Belfast is west of the Lagan ie in Antrim, on a purely anecdotal note I've never met a down GAA supporter from Belfast

panchosanza

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, county boroughs were administrative counties.

Interesting, thanks! The law isn't definitive on this: the 1898 act doesn't define "administrative county" and the wording "in this Act referred to as an administrative county" suggests it's a temporary label of convenience rather than a permanent addition to the legal lexicon. Others acts seem to exclude county boroughs e.g. Mental Treatment Act, 1945 sec.14(2) "any area so changed shall consist of an administrative county, two or more administrative counties, a county borough, a county borough and an administrative county, or a county borough and two or more administrative counties." A reference to "the administrative county of Cork" is, strictly speaking, ambiguous if the county borough of Cork is also an administrative county.

The Local Government Act, 2001 Schedule 2 seems to recognise this inconsistency by requiring that the construction of “administrative county” in older statutes should be "County and where the other enactment concerned so requires, also includes a reference to a city".

(Sorry I'm too new to post URLs)

Peregrinus

Which is pretty much my point. The whole concept of "county" in local governement legislation is a pretty slippery one. S. 21 of the 1898 Act states flatly that each Second Schedule borough is an administrative county (whereas it is merely "called" a county borough), whereas later legislation seems to specify county boroughs separately from administrative counties which, in light of s.21, seems unnecessary. But that very vagueness tells us that we shouldn't be looking to local government legislation to answer questions about counties generally. We had counties before the Local Government Act 1989 s. 21 was enacted; we had counties after it was repeled (in 2001). What we mean by "county" isn't exhaustively answered by looking at the local government legislation. (In fact, the local government legislation doesn't even offer a clear answer, never mind a definitive one.)

dubhthach

tabbey wrote: »

After independence, the state could not tolerate the names Kingstown, Queenstown, Kings County and Queen's County, and they were scrapped without much thought of what should replace them.

Q County became Leix, then Laoghaise, finally Laois.

K County for some reason I could never understand, became Offaly. It was a most inappropriate title, as the baronies of East Offaly and West Offaly are both entirely in County Kildare.

Nobody will change it now, but for the sake of historical researchers, the powers that were in 1922, should have chosen any name but Offaly.

Bit more complicated than that, the baronies of Offaly in Kildare only reflect the parts of the pre-existing Kingdom of the Uí(bh) Failghe (Uíbh = plural dative of Uí -- dative is now obsolete in modern irish) that was taken by the Cambro-Norman's.

The rump of the Kingdom persisted until the 1550's (if anything it expanded during the 14th/15th centuries with raiding), this rump makes up the modern eastern part of Offaly and was core of original "Kings County" (thence Daingean/Philipstown been center of plantation), the rest came from detaching part of "Westmeath" and northern part of Munster kingdom of Éile.

Basically from Tullamore to the Shannon had formed part of southern Uí Néill overkingdom of Miḋe (Meath), spilt between the Fir Chell branch of the Cenél Fiachach (descended supposedly from Fiachach son of bould Niall Noígiallach) and their subject people the Delbna.



The Cenél Fiachach having spilt in two in later medieval period



Map source:
https://aran.library.nuigalway.ie/bitstream/handle/10379/5224/ASSEMBLY_PLACES_%26_COLLECTIVE_IDENTITIES_FitzPatrick_.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

tabbey

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, county boroughs were administrative counties.

County Borough Councils had the same status as County Councils.

On documents relating to Dublin city, for example, you will often see it described as " the County of the City of Dublin".

I assume it was the same in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Belfast and L/Derry.
Galway only became a county borough in 1985, by which time choice of phrases had been modernised.

dubhthach

tabbey wrote: »

County Borough Councils had the same status as County Councils.

On documents relating to Dublin city, for example, you will often see it described as " the County of the City of Dublin".

I assume it was the same in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Belfast and L/Derry.
Galway only became a county borough in 1985, by which time choice of phrases had been modernised.

Galway had a "County of a town" up until 1840, when the Corporation was abolished by the British. The city had been in decline since the early 18th century at this stage.

Hardiman's history of Galway published in 1820 is specifically called:
"The History of the Town and County of the Town of Galway"

Basically the "Barony of Galway" is equivalent to the old "County of the Town", of course the Barony in turn is based on the pre-existing Gaelic Irish Tríocha-Cét subdivison of Clann Fergaile

Galway "regained" corporation/county-borough status in 1985.

Rosita

I have examined police reports from the colonial period and there are divisions of Cork and maybe Galway (if memory serves) into 'Ridings' though they were not as definitive as Tipperary where you'd have had separate police organisations with two County Inspectors. For some reason Tipperary took that division forward into the local administration for the new state. Curiously it was one Dail constituency from the foundation of the state until the 1948 election when it was split into Tipperary North & Tipperary South, before being reunited again for the 2011 election. That there wasn't two Dail constituencies as per the County Councils seems counter-intuitive.

Technically it was two counties back in the day as a county - as I understand it - is a County Council administrative region. By this logic of course Dublin would be four or five different counties e.g. Fingal (which has a hurling team in the National League I think). And of course any county with a city of a certain size would have a separate local administration for that urban area too.

4ensic15

Rosita wrote: »

Curiously it was one Dail constituency from the foundation of the state until the 1948 election when it was split into Tipperary North & Tipperary South, before being reunited again for the 2011 election. That there wasn't two Dail constituencies as per the County Councils seems counter-intuitive.

Laois-Offaly, Carlow Kilkenny and Longford-Westmeath and Cavan Monaghan are longstanding examples of two geographic counties being combined to make one dail constituency. Dail constituencies are created to maintain an average number of voters per Dail seat and the guidelines are simply that county boundaries be respected as far as possible. Leitrim on the other hand has frequently been partitioned into 2 or 3 with portions added to other counties for the purpose of dail elections. There is no significance whatsoever in the fact that the ridings in Tipperary were never mapped onto dail constituencies.

tabbey

In the first couple of decades of independence, constituencies were generally larger, six, seven, eight or nine seaters.
This meant a greater degree of proportionality.
For this reason, many constituencies were multi county.

Rosita

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is no significance whatsoever in the fact that the ridings in Tipperary were never mapped onto dail constituencies.

Never said there was any significance to it but it is worth noting that it happened later when the county was split in two electorally. It seems that it might have been obvious to do so at the foundation of the state since they were already split administratively. Was it significant that they weren't? I suppose only those privy to the deliberations of those who set up the early constituencies could really say.

Not sure your comparisons with Carlow-Kilkenny & Cavan-Monaghan stack up with Tipperary since it generally (until the present time) has its borders respected by Dáil constituencies. The only difference was the splitting of the county.

Incidentally Cavan-Monaghan is not particularly long standing as it didn't come into being until the 1970s. Prior to that they were separate constituencies. In the early decades of the state Carlow-Kildare was a constituency with Kilkenny on its won.

grogi

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Yeah its weird but wikipedia is not the greatest source by any means. I don't think it was literally two counties more two separate duristictions for voting purposes but then again it might be worth further exploration,

There is a great feature of Wikiepdia...

If you know something better, there is called EDIT button...

VirginiaB

Odd there were only two. A riding has Viking origins and the division was, I believe, into three parts. Yorkshire is an example of a county divided into ridings.
Interesting that Griffith's lists Tip, North Tip and South Tip separately.