Dublin Cycleway Projects Halted.

Eamonnator

Report from R.T.E.
A number of city centre projects have been halted because of increased costs related to the new Luas works.
Win Win, I guess for Luas: fewer cyclists, more Luas passengers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0903/813950-cycleways-dublin-luas/

odyssey06

As far as unelected state bodies go, anyone who takes any other form of transport is a peasant who deserves to be maximally inconvenienced to make way for the shiny new LUAS.

markpb

I could be wrong but the statement from NTA sounds to me like there's a shortage of other resources, not cash. I've heard nothing about cost overruns on the cross city project.

Eamonnator

I took resources to mean cash.

Firedance

In a statement, the National Transport Authority which provides funding for the projects said that the resources of Dublin City Council need to be "re-focussed" because of the demands of Luas cross city and other traffic management schemes.

I wonder what the other schemes are. What a shame, I"m just starting out cycling to work, on the days I don't cycle I get the train (Docklands line) and I often wonder why they don't develop a dedicated cycle lane along rail lines. Obviously Irish Rail wouldn't be very happy if custom was taken from them but if the grand canal was developed from Clonsilla - Castleknock I"d be delighted! Seems to me like rail lines and luas lines are obvious places for cycle paths to be developed along side..

prinzeugen

odyssey06 wrote: »

As far as Dublin City Council is concerned, anyone who takes any other form of transport is a peasant who deserves to be maximally inconvenienced to make way for the shiny new plaza and cycle lanes.

Fixed your post.

Glad the Dodder scheme is on hold as its one of the few "natural" areas left in South Dublin.

Lovely tree lined path by the river around Dartry.

The cycle track would destroy that.

Red Kev

prinzeugen wrote: »

Fixed your post.

Glad the Dodder scheme is on hold as its one of the few "natural" areas left in South Dublin.

Lovely tree lined path by the river around Dartry.

The cycle track would destroy that.

It wasn;t a cycle track that was planned, it was a greenway, to be used by both cyclists and walkers. There was to be no realignment or widening in that area, in fact the idea was to encourage cyclists to go via Orwell walk and over a new or modified bridge to Dartry park (removing the steps on the existing bridge).

The plans were on display at a public meeting in the Dropping Well a couple of months ago, seemed to be sympathetically done all round.

CramCycle

prinzeugen wrote: »

Fixed your post.

Glad the Dodder scheme is on hold as its one of the few "natural" areas left in South Dublin.

Lovely tree lined path by the river around Dartry.

The cycle track would destroy that.

Did you look at the proposals? I would be interested in hearing your view on how it would "destroy" that?

Chuchote

Lunacy. For the first time in modern history, the number of people commuting into Dublin by bicycle has topped 10,000, and this is the point at which the geniuses of Dublin street design decide to axe three greenways that would guide a lot of cyclists along safe and pleasant routes free from cars.

@prinzeugen, could I suggest that you try cycling from Milltown (path through park) to Ringsend along the cycle/walk tracks (you'll only have to enter a road with cars at Beaver Row and briefly at Donnybrook while you squiggle left from Beaver Row and right after Bective). These paths are pleasant for walkers and cyclists.

Apparently Shane Ross thinks managing Transport has been a "doddle"…

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ross-doddle-jibe-prompts-union-anger-35019396.html

magicbastarder

weird. is that some odd tactic of his in response to the near-universal slating of him for having achieved little since taking office?

2RockMountain

odyssey06 wrote: »

As far as unelected state bodies go, anyone who takes any other form of transport is a peasant who deserves to be maximally inconvenienced to make way for the shiny new LUAS.

The mission of the NTA is to move people out of cars onto sustainable forms of transport, including Luas and cycling and walking and buses and trains.

Firedance wrote: »

In a statement, the National Transport Authority which provides funding for the projects said that the resources of Dublin City Council need to be "re-focussed" because of the demands of Luas cross city and other traffic management schemes.

There is no particular statement from the NTA on their site, so it is hard to see what's going on here;

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/latest-news/

Firedance wrote: »

I wonder what the other schemes are. What a shame, I"m just starting out cycling to work, on the days I don't cycle I get the train (Docklands line) and I often wonder why they don't develop a dedicated cycle lane along rail lines. Obviously Irish Rail wouldn't be very happy if custom was taken from them but if the grand canal was developed from Clonsilla - Castleknock I"d be delighted! Seems to me like rail lines and luas lines are obvious places for cycle paths to be developed along side..

There is an engineering challenge about how to mix cyclists and passengers at each train platform. You'd need some kind of underpass or overpass, with inclines that would be difficult for many cyclists.

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

weird. is that some odd tactic of his in response to the near-universal slating of him for having achieved little since taking office?

I just read in the Indo that he said Transport had been a doddle compared to Sport. To be fair to him, that's not quite the same as saying that he'd found the Transport part of his portfolio easy, per se. He's just found the IOC scandal the hardest thing he's had to deal with so far.

Of course, as you say, Transport has been easy enough, because he hasn't tried to do very much! Some strikes should get him working. Maybe.

ThisRegard

More swipes taken at Ross, albeit from a man who doesn't want to be alarmist yet says Dublin is not yet safe to cycle in
"It's bananas!": Fury as funding pulled for Dublin cycling projects http://jrnl.ie/2964771

Chuchote

Cllr Smyth says Dublin should be aiming for 15% to 20% of commuters to be cyclists, as in Amsterdam and Paris. I find this a surprising figure. I'd imagine it was waaaaaaayyyy higher in Amsterdam, and much lower in Paris. Are there any figures?

PaddyFagan

Chuchote wrote: »

Are there any figures?

Google found this - https://ecf.com/resources/cycling-facts-and-figures

EU Capitals___Cycling modal share_____Year
Amsterdam________32%____________2012
<snip>
Dublin_____________7.9%__________2013
<snip>
Paris______2% (2nd source: 5%)_____2013

CramCycle

Chuchote wrote: »

Cllr Smyth says Dublin should be aiming for 15% to 20% of commuters to be cyclists, as in Amsterdam and Paris. I find this a surprising figure. I'd imagine it was waaaaaaayyyy higher in Amsterdam, and much lower in Paris. Are there any figures?

Based on the Canal Cordon survey, bikes are at 11.9% last year in DCC

Chuchote

Pretty astonishing figures there, PaddyFagan - but the years are different for different cities. London's cycling is exploding, especially since the 'Boris bicycle superhighways':

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2016/mar/08/boris-johnson-mayor-segregated-cycling-routes-for-london

so the figure for London could probably be trebled. Rome's is really strange - does no one cycle there?

CramCycle wrote: »

Based on the Canal Cordon survey, bikes are at 11.9% last year in DCC

So Dublin city centre cycling rose from nearly 8% to nearly 12% in two years, and numbers are still rocketing? It's insane to cut infrastructure funding, in fact it's murderous, as there will be more cyclists killed as the numbers on city streets rather than separate infrastructure rise.

tomasrojo

Ross doesn't take cycling seriously. He's probably quite dangerous for the future of cycling in that regard. I'm hoping this government falls quite soon, and he can go back to speechifying on the margins.

EDIT: don't bikes take more people into the city centre than the Luas?

tomasrojo

I must say Dublin does have a LOT of cyclists compared to ten years ago, and quite a varied selection of people too, though, as said in the journal.ie article, low on middle-aged women, children and older people.

Berlin, I would say, has many more, and Amsterdam many more again.

The London figure I would say is still quite low, because London is huge and most of the big gains have been in a relatively small number of boroughs. That's just a guess though. I actually don't know at all.

Chuchote

tomasrojo wrote: »

The London figure I would say is still quite low, because London is huge and most of the big gains have been in a relatively small number of boroughs. That's just a guess though. I actually don't know at all.

From that Boris Johnson piece:

While bikes now make up a fairly high proportion of vehicles in central London – 24%, according to Andrew Gilligan, Johnson’s cycling commissioner

tomasrojo

Sure, I'm aware that cycling levels are very high in some areas, but London has a vast area outside central London. I'm sure the modal share is higher than 2% now, but I wouldn't be surprised if that 24% is diluted right down by all the other bits of London.

EDIT: I don't go to London very often, but I'd be very happy to see modal share go right up there. Our lot pay a lot of attention to what goes on there. Not to the point of having referendums to leave trading blocs though, I hope.

buffalo

So the RSA/DoT says "you have to use the cycle facilities provided", and the NTA/TII says "we're not providing any cycle facilities".

Joined up thinking at its best.

magicbastarder

tomasrojo wrote: »

EDIT: don't bikes take more people into the city centre than the Luas?

just did some googling - LUAS claims 89,000 passenger journeys daily (which might imply 45,000 return journeys); that does not necessarily mean that they come into the city centre.
DCC and the NTA claim 11,000 people cycle into the city.

Chuchote

There could be far more Luasers if the promised free park-and-ride car parks had been provided.

Carawaystick

magicbastarder wrote: »

just did some googling - LUAS claims 89,000 passenger journeys daily (which might imply 45,000 return journeys); that does not necessarily mean that they come into the city centre.
DCC and the NTA claim 11,000 people cycle into the city.

Is the dcc/nta cycle count not crossing the canal cordon only? ignoring jopurney's made in the city.

tomasrojo

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is the dcc/nta cycle count not crossing the canal cordon only? ignoring jopurney's made in the city.

Yeah, I thought that the only count done was the Canal Cordon one.

Carawaystick

There were 980k dublin bikes trips in 2015, or 2680 per day.

Doctor Bob

magicbastarder wrote: »

just did some googling - LUAS claims 89,000 passenger journeys daily (which might imply 45,000 return journeys); that does not necessarily mean that they come into the city centre.
DCC and the NTA claim 11,000 people cycle into the city.

The DCC figure covers the period 0700-1000hrs and relates only to cyclists crossing the canal cordon. The only reliable conclusion that can be drawn is that the number of daily cycle trips is no lower that 11,000, but it might be far higher- cyclists who stay wholly within the canal ring (including almost all DB users), cyclists who stay wholly outside it, cyclists who cycle before 0700hrs or after 1000 hrs, etc.

The comparison tomasrojo was referring to, I suspect, is that more people cross the canal cordon by bike than on the Luas in the morning peak hour, which I've heard Andrew Montague say before.

Doctor Bob

Carawaystick wrote: »

There were 980k dublin bikes trips in 2015, or 2680 per day.

According to a Coca Cola press release earlier this year, there were 4.1M trips on DBs in 2015, with 17,222 on the busiest day (8th October).

Firedance

Deedsie wrote: »

And potentially it gets worse and worse for cyclists...

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-strike-bus-lanes-2966661-Sep2016/

Reading that it doesn't look like anything will change, bus lanes will not be opened to cars during the strikes and rightly so, there are a lot more than just Dublin Bus using those lanes.

tomasrojo

A number of cycle routes in Dublin including the Dodder Greenway had to be postponed because of a "shock" under-allocation from the Government, according to the city council.

Chief Executive Owen Keegan said that the National Transport Authority had not received the promised allocation for cycling and waking facilities from the Department of Transport.

http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0905/814409-cycle-routes-dublin/

All the Sir Humphreys at the Department in the driving seat now.

buffalo

tomasrojo wrote: »

http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0905/814409-cycle-routes-dublin/

All the Sir Humphreys at the Department in the driving seat now.

Chief Executive Owen Keegan said that the National Transport Authority had not received the promised allocation for cycling and waking facilities from the Department of Transport.

Is this why Ross seems to be asleep at the helm?

magicbastarder

it's amazing how little money the irish government puts into issues like this, and the environment in general. i was astonished recently to hear what the annual budget of the NPWS is - €2.5m.

markpb

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's amazing how little money the irish government puts into issues like this, and the environment in general. i was astonished recently to hear what the annual budget of the NPWS is - €2.5m.

A handful of political hot topics get the vast majority of the money spent by government. Everything else is left to trundle along with the scraps. No-one ever asked a politician at their doorstep about funding for NPWS, Metro North, a cycle lane or an efficient local authority system. No politician ever got bad PR for giving extra money to schools, the health service or social welfare.

Chuchote

markpb wrote: »

A handful of political hot topics get the vast majority of the money spent by government. Everything else is left to trundle along with the scraps. No-one ever asked a politician at their doorstep about funding for NPWS, Metro North, a cycle lane or an efficient local authority system. No politician ever got bad PR for giving extra money to schools, the health service or social welfare.

All the more reason why we should get together and go out canvassing in specific targeted ministers' constituencies when the next election comes.

I canvassed, for the first time in my later life, during the marriage referendum. I don't know how much use I was, but it was an eye-opener on all kinds of things.

tomasrojo

It's actually one of the difficulties with addressing climate change; it's been effectively lumped in with "environmental" issues, which means one of those things that's nice to have if there's plenty of spare cash, and something of interest mostly to well-meaning middle-class types.

This happens a lot. A recent Planet Money podcast interviewed the inventor of modern fracking. He was quite upset that he was being criticised for the deleterious environmental effects (not all as bad as generally assumed, but it definitely undermined renewables), when he had been a scout and loved walking in the national parks. Though that was a very strange juxtaposition: it's completely possible, for example, to have no interest whatsoever in wildlife or nature walks and want to reduce fossil fuel use.

tomasrojo

I almost never get canvassers to my door. Once in a blue moon. Do other people get them most elections?

magicbastarder

ireland has always had a low interest in things ecological.
compare the memberships of the likes of birdwatch ireland with the corresponding organisations in the UK, and the UK per capita figures are at least ten times higher than in ireland (over 100 times in absolute terms). same for any of the other environmental organisations.
the budget of the park service in the states is over 1000 times the budget of the NPWS, but population differs by approx a factor of 100.

Chuchote

tomasrojo wrote: »

I almost never get canvassers to my door. Once in a blue moon. Do other people get them most elections?

I actually normally get one or two. The last time, I was so angry that I hid.

I live in what was known as the Soviet Socialist Republic of Dublin Central. Don't tell me it wasn't for that reason that we - five kilometres from the coast as the crow flies, four kilometres from the city centre, six kilometres from the mountains - are now part of 'Dublin Bay South', voting with the bourgeois, God bless 'em. So we're probably seen as a swing constituency.

Those canvasses I was on: the real thing that struck me was that when people heard the actual voice of someone who was going to be affected by their vote, it clearly moved them. I was constantly calling over the people I was canvassing with to talk to people, to say "I've been living with the man I love for 20 years, why shouldn't we be able to marry and commit to each other, and be able to see each other as next of kin when we're sick in hospital, and to buy a house easily together, and to inherit from each other…" When people heard this personal testimony, they grew thoughtful.

The same could be true for cyclists who canvass in areas where politicians are likely to have a big effect on our transport system. If people meet cyclists and hear their concerns - sure you're going to meet prejudice, just as the gay canvassers did in that last referendum, but you can change prejudice by talking politely and sharing your experience, and saying "Did you cycle to school when you were a child", and so on.

magicbastarder

i think i only talked to one canvasser at the last election, and it was a green party canvasser, who i sent away with a promise of a high preference. so i didn't get to talk to anyone from any of the parties i'd have the biggest issues with.

TomaszWX

How about doing this? If it worked in The Netherlands... Quote from Wikipedia article on "Cycling in Netherlands" (they won't allow me post links as I'm a new user, damn):

"The trend away from the bicycle and towards motorised transport only began to be slowed in the 1970s when Dutch people took to the streets to protest against the high number of child deaths on the roads: in some cases over 500 children were killed in car accidents in the Netherlands in a single year.[10] This protest movement came to be known as the Stop de Kindermoord (literally "Stop the Child Murder" in Dutch).[10] The success of this movement — along with other factors, such as the oil shortages of 1973–74[11] — turned Dutch government policy around and the country began to restrict motor vehicles in its towns and cities and direct its focus on growth towards other forms of transport, with the bicycle being seen as critical in making Dutch streets safer and towns and cities more people-friendly and liveable."

Do google search for "Netherlands cycling protests", impressive. I'd be ready to come with my bike and block the quays for a day or two, right there before the City Council building. Few thousand others and we might be heard.

Chuchote

TomaszWX wrote: »

How about doing this? If it worked in The Netherlands... Quote from Wikipedia article on "Cycling in Netherlands" (they won't allow me post links as I'm a new user, damn):

"The trend away from the bicycle and towards motorised transport only began to be slowed in the 1970s when Dutch people took to the streets to protest against the high number of child deaths on the roads: in some cases over 500 children were killed in car accidents in the Netherlands in a single year.[10] This protest movement came to be known as the Stop de Kindermoord (literally "Stop the Child Murder" in Dutch).[10] The success of this movement — along with other factors, such as the oil shortages of 1973–74[11] — turned Dutch government policy around and the country began to restrict motor vehicles in its towns and cities and direct its focus on growth towards other forms of transport, with the bicycle being seen as critical in making Dutch streets safer and towns and cities more people-friendly and liveable."

Do google search for "Netherlands cycling protests", impressive. I'd be ready to come with my bike and block the quays for a day or two, right there before the City Council building. Few thousand others and we might be heard.

Me too.

uphillonly

This may have been mentioned before but deserves more attention:

Georgian Parkway - parking protected cycle lanes in central Dublin. It looks relatively low cost & low impact. All these small schemes can add up to make a big difference.

https://youtu.be/925402H4XlI

http://www.thejournal.ie/cycle-lanes-dublin-2727755-Apr2016/?jrnl_af=1

Chuchote

uphillonly wrote: »

This may have been mentioned before but deserves more attention:

Georgian Parkway - parking protected cycle lanes in central Dublin. It looks relatively low cost & low impact. All these small schemes can add up to make a big difference.

https://youtu.be/925402H4XlI

http://www.thejournal.ie/cycle-lanes-dublin-2727755-Apr2016/?jrnl_af=1

Yeah, a brilliant initiative.

Another protected cycleway idea would be to have cycleways protected by rows of Sheffield cycle parking stands.

tomasrojo

Interesting comment. Depressing.

By: Mike McKillen
Listen to Cllr Paddy Smith on Newstalk’s ‘Right Hook’ yesterday about the DoTTAS cut in funding for essential cycling infrastructure. About 4 min into start of programme. It is Minister Ross’ decision.

http://irishcycle.com/2016/09/07/central-government-funding-cut-to-blame-for-dublin-cycling-projects-delay-says-city-council/

Chuchote

tomasrojo wrote: »

Interesting comment. Depressing.

http://irishcycle.com/2016/09/07/central-government-funding-cut-to-blame-for-dublin-cycling-projects-delay-says-city-council/

Can't find this Right Hook on Newstalk; they don't seem to offer whole programmes. All I can find for that day is a tourism piece about Beijing.

magicbastarder

Chuchote wrote: »

Yeah, a brilliant initiative.

Another protected cycleway idea would be to have cycleways protected by rows of Sheffield cycle parking stands.

i think this came up before, with lots of concern from cyclists that visibilty is a major issue in such schemes, especially from pedestrians walking between the parked cars.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think this came up before, with lots of concern from cyclists that visibilty is a major issue in such schemes, especially from pedestrians walking between the parked cars.

Hmm, yes, obviously you get out of your car and need to get to the pavement.

tomasrojo

Severe fines ahead if Ireland doesn't curtail greenhouse gas emissions:

“Take the current capital investment plan which envisages twice as much spending on roads compared to public transport. Meanwhile, apparently there is nothing in the kitty for investment in worthy low-carbon projects such as cycle lanes, or indeed energy efficiency in homes,” he said.

“We need to decide if this is a credible approach in a carbon-constrained world,” Mr Curtin said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-could-face-5-5bn-climate-bill-by-2030-says-expert-1.2787535