What am I doing wrong

masterK

I've looking for some advise on my current workout schedule and diet. After joining a gym around 14 months ago I am seeing very little results,
I know it must be either my workout or diet that are wrong. Prior to joining the gym I had been running approximately 25km per week, my weight had
dropped from 175lb to 166lb, I am 6 foot tall. I'd basically very little body fat except for on my stomach which has proved impossible to shift.

For many months after joining the gym I was really just using machines, with the odd dumbbell exercise and then running on the treadmill. My program has changed significantly since then, over the last 3-4 months my program is below. The results have definitely been more positive, I've added a couple of lb, I can notice a decent improvement on my chest, however my arms haven't really added any size, they were quite thin to begin with and the improvements in strength have been quite small.

I've started to record all my eating on MyFitnessPal, I'm trying to consume around 2700-2800 calories per day which I am managing most days. I would like to add around another half stone in bulk but at the same time lose the stomach fat. My stomach has become really noticeable, I think partly because I've built my abs a little.

Schedule

Monday - TRX Class 45 Minutes
Tuesday - Spinning Class 45 Minutes
5 x 5 Squats
5 x 5 Bench Press
5 x 5 Barbell Row
2 x 12 Dumbell Bench Press
2 x 12 Triceps Kickback
2 x 12 Lying Fly
2 x 12 Leg Extensions

Thursday - 5 x 5 Squats
5 x 5 Overhead Press
5 x 5 Deadlift
2 x 12 Dumbell Bench Press
2 x 12 Triceps Kickback
2 x 12 Lying Fly
2 x 12 Kneeling One Arm Row
2 x 12 Alternated Biceps Curl
2 x 12 Skullcrushers
2 x 12 Leg Extensions

20 Treadmill (2 x 4 minute 12.5kmph run + 2 x 4 minute 9kmph 6% incline, 1 min jog in between)

Saturday - 5 x 5 Squats
5 x 5 Bench Press
5 x 5 Barbell Row
2 x 12 Dumbell Bench Press
2 x 12 Triceps Kickback
2 x 12 Lying Fly
2 x 12 Kneeling One Arm Row
2 x 12 Alternated Biceps Curl
2 x 12 Skullcrushers
2 x 12 Leg Extensions

20 Treadmill (2 x 4 minute 12.5kmph run + 2 x 4 minute 9kmph 6% incline, 1 min jog in between)

Diet
A typical diet for the day is

Breakfast - Granola/Whole grain cereal + Mass Gainer Shake

Lunch - Eggs, Bacon, tomatoes, whole grain bread

Dinner - Lean Meats (chicken, pork, beef etc.)
Potatoes/Rice/Pasta
Lots of veg - 3 per dinner (broccoli, carrots, onion, pepper, mushroom, asparagus, cauliflower, green beans etc.)

Snacks - Apple, Pear, Banana, Yogurt, Handful of mixed nuts. Either Crackers with cheese or sambo on wholegrain.

There's also the occasional bag of crisps, a rare bar of chocolate, maybe a take away every 2nd weekend and a few glasses of wine most weekends.

I would appreciate any suggestions in order to build strength and add bulk especially to my upper body, the stomach fat I have is a big concern, I cannot seem to shift it no matter what I do. Its like a catch 22, if I eat more calories to add bulk to my upper body I probably won't be able to shake the stomach fat but on the other hand if I cut my calorie intake I won't be able to add any bulk.

It's becoming very frustrating as I am putting the effort in but just not seeing the results I would like.

Blacktie.

Looking at your diet I'm very surprised you can get 2700-2800 calories in there. Looks like you're not getting enough protein though. What's your rough daily macro breakdown (protein/carbs/fat)?

masterK

Blacktie. wrote: »

Looking at your diet I'm very surprised you can get 2700-2800 calories in there. Looks like you're not getting enough protein though. What's your rough daily macro breakdown (protein/carbs/fat)?

I missed having some crackers with cheese or sambo on wholegrain in the evening as snack. I've updated my original post.

For example yesterday my breakdown was:

KCal :2741
Carbs: 361g
Fat: 87g
Protein: 117g
Sugar: 102g

newcar2016

Would it be easier to cut until you lose all the fat and leave strength as a secondary concern until then?

Blacktie.

masterK wrote: »

I missed having some crackers with cheese or sambo on wholegrain in the evening as snack. I've updated my original post.

For example yesterday my breakdown was:

KCal :2741
Carbs: 361g
Fat: 87g
Protein: 117g
Sugar: 102g

Hmm doesn't seem too bad though I would still up the protein by about 50g or so. You're saying you dropped to 166lb. I'd imagine you're now in the skinny fat range and would need to build more muscle. While it is possible to gain muscle and lose weight it's fairly inefficient and takes a lot of control over your diet. You'd be better off going on a bulk IMO. Add 500 calories on to your diet and start bulking up. If you don;t see the weight move up after a few weeks add more calories. When you're doing your big lifts always focus on progression. Either adding reps or weight or lower rest times. Just some form of progression session to session.

Would it be easier to cut until you lose all the fat and leave strength as a secondary concern until then?

Problem with this is he could just be cutting down to nothing and look like a skeleton!

masterK

newcar2016 wrote: »

Would it be easier to cut until you lose all the fat and leave strength as a secondary concern until then?

That's definitely an idea, my worry is that I've been here before joining a gym when I was just running. I lost a fair amount of weight, however the stomach just didn't seem to shift. I ended up getting very thin looking all over with a pot belly. Admittedly at that time my diet was a worse than it is now, though still not really bad.

givyjoe

masterK wrote: »

That's definitely an idea, my worry is that I've been here before joining a gym when I was just running. I lost a fair amount of weight, however the stomach just didn't seem to shift. I ended up getting very thin looking all over with a pot belly. Admittedly at that time my diet was a worse than it is now, though still not really bad.

My diet isn't great myself. so cant advise on that front. But looking at your routine, it looks like you are trying to squeeze in far to0 much.

If you want to bulk, id suggest more sets with lower reps. If you are doing only 2 sets and 12 reps on most of your exercises, your muscles aren't really being pushed and you're not going to see much progress. You're also 'focusing' on too many muscle groups in your sessions. Keep it simple and focus on a muscle group each day. E.g. Chest, Shoulders, Back etc. Lift heavier and less reps. High reps and low weights are not going to bulk you up.

Zillah

Are you sure your belly is fat, as opposed to just your natural shape? Like, if you tense your abs up hard and poke, how much of the belly is actually fat?

When you are doing your weights, are they challenging and heavy, and are you pushing yourself to try the next one up? You won't see results unless you're really pushing yourself; you often see people at the gym slinging around weights like a TV remote and I always feel they're the kind of people who say the gym doesn't work for them.

How much weight have you gained in the 3-4 months that you've been doing the programme you describe? If you're not gaining weight then you won't be gaining muscle - eat more. Consider taking daily whey to make sure you're getting enough protein.

Also, one thing no one has mentioned yet: what's the exact product of "mass gainer" that you're having in the morning? Some of those things are sugary junk and would be the last thing you should be having if you want to shift body fat.

Caliden

Being 6 foot and weighing only 75kg I'd advise against cutting any further.

Forget about the belly fat and increase your calories for 8-12 weeks (Aim for 1kg per month weight gain) and then try a recomp. At least by that point you should have some muscle gain.

2700 calories seems extremely low if you're trying to gain muscle and your protein should be ~135-150g.


I'm 6 foot and 79kg at the moment but I'm hoping to gain another 3-4 before I cut around January, bulk for another 3 and cut for next summer.
Bulking aint pretty but unless you're extremely precise about your nutrition and diet it's very difficult to increase muscle mass without increasing body fat.

I'm sure there are few more posters with more knowledge on the subject but I'd suggest focusing on one thing at a time (strength/size/bodyfat %) instead of trying to cover all 3.

masterK

Zillah wrote: »

Are you sure your belly is fat, as opposed to just your natural shape? Like, if you tense your abs up hard and poke, how much of the belly is actually fat?

When you are doing your weights, are they challenging and heavy, and are you pushing yourself to try the next one up? You won't see results unless you're really pushing yourself; you often see people at the gym slinging around weights like a TV remote and I always feel they're the kind of people who say the gym doesn't work for them.

How much weight have you gained in the 3-4 months that you've been doing the programme you describe? If you're not gaining weight then you won't be gaining muscle - eat more. Consider taking daily whey to make sure you're getting enough protein.

Also, one thing no one has mentioned yet: what's the exact product of "mass gainer" that you're having in the morning? Some of those things are sugary junk and would be the last thing you should be having if you want to shift body fat.

When I stand up straight and tall then its not really noticeable, when I sit it definitely is.

I've put on about 4lb in the last couple of months.

The mass gainer I use is this one:
http://www.myprotein.ie/sports-nutrition/hard-gainer-extreme/10615587.html

At the end of a session my arms feel like jelly, I think I am pushing myself pretty hard. I try to use back supports as much as possible (i.e a bench) to ensure my form is decent and I'm not swinging weights around like remote controls.

BrokenArrows

Your program seems to be very high volume of each. Can you post the weights you use for each exercise?

Strength will only increase if you lift heavier and you can only lift heavier by lifting heavier!!. If you lift a light weight and high volume then your muscle doesn't really increase strength but increases endurance.

I suggest anything you have currently at 2x12 you change to 3x5 and increase the weight significantly. Heavy enough that you may struggle to complete the last rep on the last set of each exercise.
If you are not struggling a little on the last rep then its time to increase the weight again.

Zillah

masterK wrote: »

When I stand up straight and tall then its not really noticeable, when I sit it definitely is.

What about the tensing and the poking? Is there actually a layer of fat that your finger sinks into?

I've put on about 4lb in the last couple of months.

2lbs a month of lean gains (assuming you've not gained any more fat) is not terrible progress, but yes it could be higher for a newbie.

The mass gainer I use is this one:
http://www.myprotein.ie/sports-nutrition/hard-gainer-extreme/10615587.html

Hmm:
Nutritional Information
Carbohydrates.....46g
of which sugars....9.1g

Not exactly liquid icecream but not great either. You'd be better off doing your own with whey and powdered oats. Looking at the ingredients it has maltodextrin (which is quite a high GI carb) listed first for carbs, and also added fructose and glucose - not ideal breakfast food.

Overall I'd be eating more protein and less sugary foods where possible, and more overall.

masterK

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Your program seems to be very high volume of each. Can you post the weights you use for each exercise?

Strength will only increase if you lift heavier and you can only lift heavier by lifting heavier!!. If you lift a light weight and high volume then your muscle doesn't really increase strength but increases endurance.

I suggest anything you have currently at 2x12 you change to 3x5 and increase the weight significantly. Heavy enough that you may struggle to complete the last rep on the last set of each exercise.
If you are not struggling a little on the last rep then its time to increase the weight again.

Sounds like great advice, roughly the weights I'm doing are

Squats - 20kg
Bench Press - 30kg
Barbell Row - 30kg
Overhead Press - 20kg
Deadlift - 30kg

Dumbell Bench Press - 14kg each
Triceps Kickback - 8kg each
Lying Fly - 10kg each
Leg Extensions - 60kg
Kneeling One Arm Row - 14kg each
Alternated Biceps Curl - 12kg each
Skullcrushers - 8kg each

masterK

Zillah wrote: »

What about the tensing and the poking? Is there actually a layer of fat that your finger sinks into?



2lbs a month of lean gains (assuming you've not gained any more fat) is not terrible progress, but yes it could be higher for a newbie.



Hmm:
Nutritional Information
Carbohydrates.....46g
of which sugars....9.1g

Not exactly liquid icecream but not great either. You'd be better off doing your own with whey and powdered oats. Looking at the ingredients it has maltodextrin (which is quite a high GI carb) listed first for carbs, and also added fructose and glucose - not ideal breakfast food.

Overall I'd be eating more protein and less sugary foods where possible, and more overall.

Yes, there's definitely a layer of fat. I'll give the homemade oats a go. I find the mass gainer extremely heavy on my stomach anyway so would be quite happy to find an alternative. Thanks.

Zillah

I throw a scoop of this in with my whey:
http://www.myprotein.ie/sports-nutrition/instant-oats/10529296.html

Costs pennies.

BrokenArrows

masterK wrote: »

Sounds like great advice, roughly the weights I'm doing are

Squats - 20kg
Bench Press - 30kg
Barbell Row - 30kg
Overhead Press - 20kg
Deadlift - 30kg

Dumbell Bench Press - 14kg each
Triceps Kickback - 8kg each
Lying Fly - 10kg each
Leg Extensions - 60kg
Kneeling One Arm Row - 14kg each
Alternated Biceps Curl - 12kg each
Skullcrushers - 8kg each

Squats - Way too light. 20KG is nothing. The leg muscles are big and can handle a lot of weight. Try upping it to 50kg to see how you feel. PS. Squats are supposed to suck!! Push hard and the strength will come.
Bench Press - You should be able to up that to 50kg with reduced sets. If your not confident upping it straight away then just work up to it over a few gym sessions increase by 5kg per session.
Barbell Row - Ok but maybe you can add a bit more.
Overhead press - Same. Just try and increase it gradually per session.
Deadlift - You should be able to up this to 50kg easily. Just make sure your form is good. Same as squats, they are supposed to suck!

Dumbell Bench Press - Ok but try 16 next session to see how you feel.
Alternated Biceps Curl - Ok, but again try and up it next session. Also try an EZbar for some curls. Alternate your sessions with Dumbells and Ezbar curls.

One of the basics of strength gain is that your body adjusts to whatever you are doing. So if you keep lifting the same weight in the same way then you body adjusts and becomes more efficient at doing it and eventually stops progressing. You need to constantly challenge your body by increasing the weight and also changing the method.
So for biceps you have a large variety of ways to hit the same muscle, Dumbell curls of different types, ezbar vs straight bar, chin ups, rows etc.
Keep the body guessing.

optimistic_

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Squats - Way too light. 20KG is nothing. The leg muscles are big and can handle a lot of weight. Try upping it to 50kg to see how you feel. PS. Squats are supposed to suck!! Push hard and the strength will come.
Bench Press - You should be able to up that to 50kg with reduced sets. If your not confident upping it straight away then just work up to it over a few gym sessions increase by 5kg per session.
Barbell Row - Ok but maybe you can add a bit more.
Overhead press - Same. Just try and increase it gradually per session.
Deadlift - You should be able to up this to 50kg easily. Just make sure your form is good. Same as squats, they are supposed to suck!

Dumbell Bench Press - Ok but try 16 next session to see how you feel.
Alternated Biceps Curl - Ok, but again try and up it next session. Also try an EZbar for some curls. Alternate your sessions with Dumbells and Ezbar curls.

One of the basics of strength gain is that your body adjusts to whatever you are doing. So if you keep lifting the same weight in the same way then you body adjusts and becomes more efficient at doing it and eventually stops progressing. You need to constantly challenge your body by increasing the weight and also changing the method.
So for biceps you have a large variety of ways to hit the same muscle, Dumbell curls of different types, ezbar vs straight bar, chin ups, rows etc.
Keep the body guessing.

This is the only area I'm going to respond to - the above poster is right.
Squatting at 20 is your absolute beginner, session 1, never ever going that light again kind of weight. Its the weight you use to ensure your form is correct.
I'd be wary of jumping straight to fifty, it looks as though he's doing some non-progressional stronglifts 5x5 so I would suggest progressing it slowly -

Concentrate on getting stronger, the rest will follow.
Up each exercise by 2.5kg for each session, increase deadlifts by 5kg per session. in a couple of months you'll be lifting respectable numbers and noticing changes.

This is precisely where your problem is though, you mustn't even feel like you've done any exercise after a session in the gym apart from your TRX class.

Zillah

Just in case: OP, when you say 20kg, do you mean an empty bar or do you mean 20kg of weights on the bar? Which would be a total of 35-40 depending on the bar.

newcar2016

Zillah wrote: »

Just in case: OP, when you say 20kg, do you mean an empty bar or do you mean 20kg of weights on the bar? Which would be a total of 35-40 depending on the bar.

This must be what they mean!!

masterK

Zillah wrote: »

Just in case: OP, when you say 20kg, do you mean an empty bar or do you mean 20kg of weights on the bar? Which would be a total of 35-40 depending on the bar.

Yes, it's 20kg on top of the bar. I was wondering, when people suggested going to 50. I do be in agony as it is after my sets.

Mellor

I took from the OP that you are trying to add a bit of weight. But others are talking sour losing weight. What are you goals?

Assuming it's to build some muscle. You are eating enough. 2700 cals doesn't leave much energy over to build muscle when your training 6 days.

You also if get stronger it will make it a lot easier. Heavier sets, more stress, more growth.

Edit: I see above that you weren't counting the bar. 40/50kg is s lot better than 20/30kg. But still aim to get stronger imo

masterK

Mellor wrote: »

I took from the OP that you are trying to add a bit of weight. But others are talking sour losing weight. What are you goals?

Assuming it's to build some muscle. You are eating enough. 2700 cals doesn't leave much energy over to build muscle when your training 6 days.

You also if get stronger it will make it a lot easier. Heavier sets, more stress, more growth.

It's dual purpose really, my primary goal to add some bulk, especially to my upper body. The losing weight is coming from me having a bit of a pot belly that is proving impossible to lose. I'm training 4 days a week in total. Do you think 2700 is enough or isn't?

BrokenArrows

masterK wrote: »

It's dual purpose really, my primary goal to add some bulk, especially to my upper body. The losing weight is coming from me having a bit of a pot belly that is proving impossible to lose. I'm training 4 days a week in total. Do you think 2700 is enough or isn't?

Some people just have weight in different areas.
Personally i find i distribute weight evenly most of the time. Except when i consume a lot of sugar. Sugar tends to give me a belly.

Mellor

masterK wrote: »

It's dual purpose really, my primary goal to add some bulk, especially to my upper body. The losing weight is coming from me having a bit of a pot belly that is proving impossible to lose. I'm training 4 days a week in total. Do you think 2700 is enough or isn't?

Your dual goals are conflicting.

To lose weight you need a calorie deficit. Maybe 2200cals
To build muscle you need a surplus. 3000cals.

I thought the first weight session was Wednesday but you left the day out. It's the same work as 6 sessions no matter how you split it. But doing a spin class before 5x5 squats, not ideal. Any other location is probably better.

Zillah

You have to decide which you want to do, because both at the same time won't work. If I were you I would lift heavier for less reps, eat quite a bit more protein and less sugar, and do a bulk for a few months. Once you've built up a decent muscle base you'll find it much easier to cut and shift the belly fat later.

Or you could do a cut first, which means eating a significant deficit, during which you will gain little or no muscle, until you've lost the belly, and then start bulking from there.

masterK

Mellor wrote: »

Your dual goals are conflicting.

To lose weight you need a calorie deficit. Maybe 2200cals
To build muscle you need a surplus. 3000cals.

I thought the first weight session was Wednesday but you left the day out. It's the same work as 6 sessions no matter how you split it. But doing a spin class before 5x5 squats, not ideal. Any other location is probably better.

That's what I meant about a catch 22 in my original post.

masterK

Thanks for all the help, guys. Its really been an education.

I think its best to focus on adding the mass and hope the belly looks after itself in time. I think the cutting sugar one is a really good point. If I eat granola cereal, 3 pieces of fruit and a yogurt I'm actually totting up about 75 grams of sugar before eating anything else.

I think my best plan of action going forward is:

1) Increase calorie and protein intake, but decrease sugar.
2) Aim for less reps but with higher weights, steadily adding weights
3) Focus on particular areas on particular days (chest, back etc.)

On top of the food I am already eating what foods can I add to my diet that are high in calories and protein but low in sugar? I know oats and peanut butter are 2 obvious ones but are there any others?

Zillah

Nuts generally.
Cheese and milk (lactose will be counted as a sugar on food apps but it's actually very low GI, so functionally is quite a bit better than most sugars).
Eggs.

I'm vegetarian so don't like recommending meat, but, well, meat's really high in protein and has essentially zero carbs, so there's that.

cloudatlas

masterK wrote: »

Thanks for all the help, guys. Its really been an education.

I think its best to focus on adding the mass and hope the belly looks after itself in time. I think the cutting sugar one is a really good point. If I eat granola cereal, 3 pieces of fruit and a yogurt I'm actually totting up about 75 grams of sugar before eating anything else.

I think my best plan of action going forward is:

1) Increase calorie and protein intake, but decrease sugar.
2) Aim for less reps but with higher weights, steadily adding weights
3) Focus on particular areas on particular days (chest, back etc.)

On top of the food I am already eating what foods can I add to my diet that are high in calories and protein but low in sugar? I know oats and peanut butter are 2 obvious ones but are there any others?

How about doing the stronglifts program?

Brian?

cloudatlas wrote: »

How about doing the stronglifts program?

How about not?


Op, seems like you've been set on the right path. To gain muscle you need to eat more, to lose the pot belly you need to eat less.

Your weights program isn't great to be honest. Far too much 2x12 isolation work and not enough compound lifts. I would recommend 3 full body sessions a week concentrating on compound lifts. Forget the tricep kickbacks, flys and more than one type of curl.

You could do worse than:

Monday:
Squat 5x5

3x8:
Pull ups
Shoulder press
Glutes ham raises
DB rows

2x10 a bicep curl and a tricep exercise

Wednesday:
Barbell bench 5x5

Same as Monday

Friday:
Deadlift 5x5

Same as Monday

I'm probably missing some bits and pieces but that's plenty in one session IMO. The intensity is very important. If you can successfully do 5x5 with a weight, you add weight for the next session. You may miss a few reps, that's fine, keep at that weight until you so 5x5 and you then add weight again. Same goes for the 3x8.

Don't do crazy things like go for a 10k run or a spin class before a weights session. That's silly. If you're determined to add mass, focus on that for now. Spinning can can be on a non weights day.

I'll say it again. Intensity is the key!

Brian?

P.S. Don't mind Zillah. Eat whole cows. Tasty little feckers.

Zillah

Brian? wrote: »

Tasty little feckers.

So are you with some BBQ sauce I bet.

Brian?

Zillah wrote: »

So are you with some BBQ sauce I bet.

I'm too old. I'm past prime eating age. If you want to eat a person I'd go for a 12 year old.

Alf Veedersane

Well...this thread sure took a turn for the worse.

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Well...this thread sure took a turn for the worse.

Only if you object to eating children.