Systematic Spurious Warnings

the great purveyor of mediocrity

S'up folks. Some advise please. Recently declined to do some unpaid work in my job as I already do between 10 and 20 hours for free every week as it is. The Manager has taken exception to this and decided that I need to be "worked out of the business" through systematic spurious warnings and lies on a weekly basis through performance appraisal. Any advice, what can one do in such a situation? Incidentally, I have documentary evidence of the above.

Tipperary Fairy

What is your documented evidence of this? Do you have a hr department?

livedadream

the great purveyor of mediocrity wrote: »

S'up folks. Some advise please. Recently declined to do some unpaid work in my job as I already do between 10 and 20 hours for free every week as it is. The Manager has taken exception to this and decided that I need to be "worked out of the business" through systematic spurious warnings and lies on a weekly basis through performance appraisal. Any advice, what can one do in such a situation? Incidentally, I have documentary evidence of the above.

let him manage you out.

keep a record and make a complaint for unfair dismissal.

to be fair performance is a hard one to fake, but simple to prove just show your performance is the same or better than everyone elses and your golden.

what to do is easy, keep a record of everything, keep notes when he talks to you, (after the fact dont stop him talking to grab your pen and notebook obvs)

ask him for written notes of his meeting with you, why your not performing etc, how you can improve etc etc.

best of luck.

the great purveyor of mediocrity

Tipperary Fairy wrote: »

What is your documented evidence of this? Do you have a hr department?

It is in the form of emails back and forth between managers. Also when I turned down the chance of unpaid on call weekend work, he remarked "that this will be brought in regardless of my reply". Currently without HR but not for long most probably. Perhaps no more than one month or so.

Stheno

the great purveyor of mediocrity wrote: »

It is in the form of emails back and forth between managers. Also when I turned down the chance of unpaid on call weekend work, he remarked "that this will be brought in regardless of my reply". Currently without HR but not for long most probably. Perhaps no more than one month or so.

Were you copied on the emails between managers?

the great purveyor of mediocrity

Stheno wrote: »

Were you copied on the emails between managers?

No, a colleague passed them on to me.

Stheno

the great purveyor of mediocrity wrote: »

No, a colleague passed them on to me.

You do realise that trying to use them in any sort of case will cause your colleague to get into trouble?

the great purveyor of mediocrity

Stheno wrote: »

You do realise that trying to use them in any sort of case will cause your colleague to get into trouble?

I guess it would. However it would not be known who passed them on to me. Also I don't intend on using them for anything really.

the great purveyor of mediocrity

livedadream wrote: »

let him manage you out.

keep a record and make a complaint for unfair dismissal.

to be fair performance is a hard one to fake, but simple to prove just show your performance is the same or better than everyone elses and your golden.

what to do is easy, keep a record of everything, keep notes when he talks to you, (after the fact dont stop him talking to grab your pen and notebook obvs)

ask him for written notes of his meeting with you, why your not performing etc, how you can improve etc etc.

best of luck.

Thanks very much for the reply. I received a written warning yesterday but it was dated the 23rd of August and said that I had five days to reply. The items they are trying to cobble together to create a warning are almost laughable if they weren't so maddening.

_Brian

livedadream wrote: »

let him manage you out.

keep a record and make a complaint for unfair dismissal.

to be fair performance is a hard one to fake, but simple to prove just show your performance is the same or better than everyone elses and your golden.

what to do is easy, keep a record of everything, keep notes when he talks to you, (after the fact dont stop him talking to grab your pen and notebook obvs)

ask him for written notes of his meeting with you, why your not performing etc, how you can improve etc etc.

best of luck.

Do not just sit back and let him manage you out.. that is poor advice..
Unfair dismissals isnt a breeze and for starters you will need to show that you used whatever internal appeals process and worked wholeheartedly to continue your employment.

My advice is document everything, where possible have a witness document and co-sign what your recording.

Ask for a dated and signed written copy of the disciplinary process, make sure you understand the process and hold them to the details.


Appeal every single warning be that verbal or written. If the appeal is unsuccessful ask for that in writing detailing why it was unsuccessful.

If your given a PIP, be very careful as to the success parameters, as someone who has managed employees out this is the place to set up the big fall, only agree to what is completely and reasonably attainable by an average employee.

If after all that you're expelled from the company then you may indeed have an unfair dismissal case to take.

Mrs OBumble

OP - realistically, just find another job.

As _Brian says, it's possible that you may have and win (not, they're different) an unfair dismissal case.

The the time and energy required to do this is enormous. And if you're working in a smaller area or small industry, then you might find that is very difficult to get any other work if you've won a previous case.

All in all, it's often easier just to leave the plonkers behind and find yourself a nicer place to be.

_Brian

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP - realistically, just find another job.

As _Brian says, it's possible that you may have and win (not, they're different) an unfair dismissal case.

The the time and energy required to do this is enormous. And if you're working in a smaller area or small industry, then you might find that is very difficult to get any other work if you've won a previous case.

All in all, it's often easier just to leave the plonkers behind and find yourself a nicer place to be.

Its possible that's what they're hoping for and indeed the easiest situation.. but you'd wonder how a reference will go..

dreamers75

Jesus find another job is not an option sometimes. Why is it the go to post on this forum from people who know nothing about anything.


OP

If the company is constructivley dismissing you, just document everything from the above point to now. LRC is in the favor of employees if the company either has a dismissal SOP and does not adhere to it or does not and dismissed someone.

_Brian

dreamers75 wrote: »

Jesus find another job is not an option sometimes. Why is it the go to post on this forum from people who know nothing about anything.


OP

If the company is constructivley dismissing you, just document everything from the above point to now. LRC is in the favor of employees if the company either has a dismissal SOP and does not adhere to it or does not and dismissed someone.

Sometimes it is the best option.

For whatever number of reasons the relationship between employer and employee just reaches a natural end where there is no longer respect or any sort of willingness to work together. Right or wrong often an immediate manager will be tasked with the job of managing the employee out of the company, mostly this is an easy enough process and within a few months the employee is dismissed or leaves to find new work and the problem is solved. I've done this on occasion, sometimes I thought it was the right thing to do and other times I resented having to do it.

glued

_Brian wrote: »

Sometimes it is the best option.

For whatever number of reasons the relationship between employer and employee just reaches a natural end where there is no longer respect or any sort of willingness to work together. Right or wrong often an immediate manager will be tasked with the job of managing the employee out of the company, mostly this is an easy enough process and within a few months the employee is dismissed or leaves to find new work and the problem is solved. I've done this on occasion, sometimes I thought it was the right thing to do and other times I resented having to do it.

Doesn't really sound like the best option. In this instance it seems as if the employer isn't happy that the staff member won't work more free hours. OP, I would get in contact with a union rep or a solicitor about this. You shouldn't have to walk away from a job becuase your employer expects you to work for free on occasion.

They're in the wrong and you shouldn't allow them to manage you out of the business

Chuchote

Do you have a union?

Mrs OBumble

dreamers75 wrote: »

Jesus find another job is not an option sometimes.

It is always an option.

Even if you work in a very specialist industry which has only one employer in the whole of Ireland - there are likely to be branches in other places. Or you could move overseas. Or take a lower-level position in another industry.

Often it is the option that will cause less stress and disruption overall.

Yes it's not fair that the OP should have to change jobs. But life ain't fair. That's just the way it goes.

Chuchote

Life isn't fair, but asking people to work for free comes outside that rule.

_Brian

Chuchote wrote: »

Life isn't fair, but asking people to work for free comes outside that rule.

Lots of folk are expected to put in extra hours for free. I've seen lads managed out because they refused OT when the company was really stuck for extra bodies on the factory floor, senior manager took the hump because he refused, he was gone within six months

Chuchote

_Brian wrote: »

Lots of folk are expected to put in extra hours for free. I've seen lads managed out because they refused OT when the company was really stuck for extra bodies on the factory floor, senior manager took the hump because he refused, he was gone within six months

If you work, you should be paid. It's not a charity.

_Brian

Chuchote wrote: »

If you work, you should be paid. It's not a charity.

But work's not all black and white like that... Many jobs have a swings and roundabouts sort of vibe going on.. People put in extra hours when its needed and they get flexibility at other times, when it works its a real nice environment to work in, demonstrates trust and respect on both sides...

Sometimes working where every minute is recorded and must be accounted for, where you must be at your work post from 9am to 5pm no matter what can be frustrating.

Chuchote

I've worked extra hours in emergency, but there's always been payback of some sort for them - and it was only in dire emergency of the all-hands-on-deck-or-we-sink sort. Otherwise, you work, they pay.

Wanderer2010

I hate the mindset of "you are expected to do extra hours". I don't mind putting in a few extra hours when deadlines are looming or when you need to get something out the door but I do expect to get paid for putting that time in plus I consider the extra hours as the occasional and not the norm. People need money to survive and therefore if you work extra hours either pay them or give them extra time off. These sad little worker-bee types who slave away 10 hrs a day and weekends are the worst type of worker or boss I have ever encountered in my career.

Do your work and get out of there and live your life. If a job expects you to do hours and hours of unpaid overtime look for a better job. A company would drop you in a millisecond if it needed to and every company will survive you if you aren't there, absolutely nobody is irreplaceable.

screamer

The problem is that if your co workers are working additional hours for free, and upping their productivity, and you aren't then there could well be an issue for you. More and more companies are expecting more and more these days, its the way of things unfortunately, and it's an employers market. I'd agree that if they are going to those lengths to get rid of you, I'd jump before I'm pushed and find another job. I've seen people managed out before for lack of delivery and there was nothing they could do about it. As regards references, a company is not obliged to provide one, indeed, for many, even if you've worked there a long time, they will just confirm that you worked there and the date you started and finished. If you really need a reference, you need a manager in the company who you know well and ask them if they'd agree to give you a reference to future employers.

Chuchote

And yet, when Sweden cut the work day to six hours, productivity soared

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/21/business/international/in-sweden-an-experiment-turns-shorter-workdays-into-bigger-gains.html?_r=0

_Brian

Chuchote wrote: »

And yet, when Sweden cut the work day to six hours, productivity soared

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/21/business/international/in-sweden-an-experiment-turns-shorter-workdays-into-bigger-gains.html?_r=0

I'm going to take guess here but OP doesn't live or work in sweeden.

In workplaces you usually have to go with the norm for that workplace, sitting back and saying something isn't fair or your not doing it because in principal you want to be paid for every second you work is the remit of public sector or highly unionised environments.
The Majority of work environments outside these work on a give and take scenario, yes overtime is essential, but salaried employees for example don't get OT. In my own position or those who work for me OT payments don't exist. But we can take back time or in Emergency drop everything and nip home to deal with something that might come up.

Chuchote

This is why unions are needed. A union would put a stop to this kind of exploitation immediately; a union would be able to negotiate for a worker and stop victimisation.

Tipperary Fairy

The very idea of work is providing a service and getting paid for it in return. I dunno about you, but I value my time.

Esel

_Brian wrote: »

I'm going to take guess here but OP doesn't live or work in sweeden.

In workplaces you usually have to go with the norm for that workplace, sitting back and saying something isn't fair or your not doing it because in principal you want to be paid for every second you work is the remit of public sector or highly unionised environments.
The Majority of work environments outside these work on a give and take scenario, yes overtime is essential, but salaried employees for example don't get OT. In my own position or those who work for me OT payments don't exist. But we can take back time or in Emergency drop everything and nip home to deal with something that might come up.

Unless you own the business, people don't work for you, they work with you...

Even if you are the owner, 'with' is the better mindset.

Chuchote

Nice cartoon going the rounds:

Mrs OBumble

Chuchote wrote: »

This is why unions are needed. A union would put a stop to this kind of exploitation immediately; a union would be able to negotiate for a worker and stop victimisation.

You've not had much experience with unions, then.

Particularly for head office type workers - the ones who might need to deal with out-of-hours emergencies and the like, unions often suck, because they adopt positions based on what suits the majority of workers, not the exceptions.

Esel wrote: »

Unless you own the business, people don't work for you, they work with you...

Even if you are the owner, 'with' is the better mindset.

If you are a hiring manager at any level, then there are people who work for you. You are responsible for their health and safety and various other things, including their productivity.

The "with" mindset can be useful to keep small business owners (where there are less checks and balances) from power tripping. But ultimately the manager is responsible.

Chuchote

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You've not had much experience with unions, then.

Particularly for head office type workers - the ones who might need to deal with out-of-hours emergencies and the like, unions often suck, because they adopt positions based on what suits the majority of workers, not the exceptions.

I have, and yes, this is true; however, everywhere I've worked except one place has had unions, and they've negotiated good deals, and they've stood up for individuals being treated unfairly. (That one place closed; we were told a couple of days before, got no redundancy.)

Wanderer2010

Unions are a great thing for workers rights and ensuring that the average working Joe has someone in their corner to make sure they are getting paid right and not getting bullied etc.Yes they are useless when it comes to saving jobs as they cant influence business decisions but no unions are a dangerous idea. I'm very very wary of someone who tries to actively cut out unions.

Without them, if you have a little dcikhead of manager shouting at you and demanding you work all hours day and night etc who can help you? You make a complaint and a few months later you are out the door on the basis of some made up error or "performance" error. Then the bully keeps his or her job and the cycle continues.

Oh, and salaried employees DO get paid overtime. They do in my industry anyway (Engineering), I got paid overtime on my last 3 salaried jobs.

Kings Inns or bust

the great purveyor of mediocrity wrote: »

S'up folks. Some advise please. Recently declined to do some unpaid work in my job as I already do between 10 and 20 hours for free every week as it is. The Manager has taken exception to this and decided that I need to be "worked out of the business" through systematic spurious warnings and lies on a weekly basis through performance appraisal. Any advice, what can one do in such a situation? Incidentally, I have documentary evidence of the above.

Only read your OP so sorry if this has been covered. The only solution is to engage a good employment solicitor early. I love it when people get managed out - payday all round - companies that engage in this sort of behaviour do it so sloppily.