Neighbour Not Paying Management Fees

Antar Bolaeisk

Hi There,

There's discussion among fellow apartment owners and the management company (self run) regarding an individual apartment owner who has not paid any management fees for the last few years running yet is continually letting out their apartment. Worse still is that they don't care who they let the apartment out to and often repairs have had to be made to the building, most recently a broken window, at our cost. Additionally, they have full use of the bin which again is paid for from the management fees.

The management company director has been dealing with a solicitor to help out for the last year but it's going absolutely nowhere.

Has anyone here experienced a similar situation before and, if so were you able to get it resolved or is it something you're still dealing with?

antoinolachtnai

Has your neighbour a mortgage on the property?

Has the management company written to the mortgage bank and said that they are going to remove the neighbour and the bank from the list of beneficiaries of the block mortgage scheme?

This often works to inspire payment I understand.

davo10

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

Hi There,

There's discussion among fellow apartment owners and the management company (self run) regarding an individual apartment owner who has not paid any management fees for the last few years running yet is continually letting out their apartment. Worse still is that they don't care who they let the apartment out to and often repairs have had to be made to the building, most recently a broken window, at our cost. Additionally, they have full use of the bin which again is paid for from the management fees.

The management company director has been dealing with a solicitor to help out for the last year but it's going absolutely nowhere.

Has anyone here experienced a similar situation before and, if so were you able to get it resolved or is it something you're still dealing with?

Your management company can begin court proceedings against the owner, requirement to pay management fees is included in the contract of sale.

Also, you can apply for a lean on the property in the amount owing. The outstanding management fees would be deducted from the sale price.

But your solicitor should really be best placed to advise you on this an to initiate any legal action. If he/she is no good, find another one.

squidgeroo

you really need to go down the solicitor route on this and make sure they act on it. Otherwise what most managed estates have done is to bring in permit parking and only those that have paid are entitled to permits. No permit and they will be clamped. We had to do that in our complex. there will always be unfortunately the couple of units that never pay but they can't sell until it is paid in full.

The_Conductor

What you need to do is lodge a formal charge against the property (a lien) which means the owner is unable to sell the property until it is satisfied- and if the property is mortgaged- the lender is informed of an additional lien being placed on the property.

Antar Bolaeisk

There's a few people voting in favour of things like parking permits but I think we're past the whole passive aggressive approach with this person. I'll mention to the management company director about the lien and see if it's something they've already considered or not.

With regards to them letting out the property, is there any way to find out if they're a registered landlord? I've checked on the prtb.ie website but was unable to download the list (maybe I was doing it wrong).

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Has your neighbour a mortgage on the property?

Has the management company written to the mortgage bank and said that they are going to remove the neighbour and the bank from the list of beneficiaries of the block mortgage scheme?

This often works to inspire payment I understand.

I don't know, they've had the property a while so it might be paid off. What is the block mortgage scheme?

gordongekko

What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.

SarahMollie

gordongekko wrote: »

What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.

What? Thats a ridiculous attitude to take. Why should they have to chase down every person individually, and who are you to dictate that you only respond to phonecalls?

When you buy a property thats part of a Multi Unit Development, you are liable for your management fees. Its not being bullied in your own home, its paying what you owe.

cruizer101

gordongekko wrote: »

What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.

So you didn't pay a bill that you knew you had to pay and when you received a letter following up on this you percieved it as bullying. No wonder so many apartments end up having to resort to clamping.

starshine1234

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

I've checked on the prtb.ie website but was unable to download the list (maybe I was doing it wrong).

I've tried to download lists from them as well and it was very difficult.

I can't remember exactly what the problem was but I was able to get the list in the end. I downloaded an .xls list.

Keep trying for the list. The system is very bad but it does work in the end. Finding a person or an address on the list can be very hard as there is no consistency, addresses are all over the place, and people can use the Irish language etc for their addresses.

It really is a terrible system.

Carlos Orange

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

Has anyone here experienced a similar situation before and, if so were you able to get it resolved or is it something you're still dealing with?

Shortly after I moved into my current apartment the management company disabled all the key fobs and issued new ones to the owners who were fully paid up.

antoinolachtnai

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

I don't know, they've had the property a while so it might be paid off. What is the block mortgage scheme?

Sorry, the block insurance scheme is what I meant to say. It is the insurance that covers the development as a whole. The mortgage company will be listed as having an interest in the policy. If they are told that they are being removed they will be upset. The insurance broker will be able to tell the company directors if there is a bank listed as having an interest in relation to that particular unit.

You really are going to have to get legal advice on this at some stage. You need a solicitor who has experience doing this particular thing.

It may well be that finding a way to have a nice chat would be better than taking legal action. There might be some problem, real or perceived that you don't know about.

gordongekko

SarahMollie wrote: »

What? Thats a ridiculous attitude to take. Why should they have to chase down every person individually, and who are you to dictate that you only respond to phonecalls?

When you buy a property thats part of a Multi Unit Development, you are liable for your management fees. Its not being bullied in your own home, its paying what you owe.

What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.

dr.fuzzenstein

gordongekko wrote: »

What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.

Hoping they'll forget about it more like...

squidgeroo

gordongekko wrote: »

What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.

Seriously, you know you have an annual bill to pay - why don't you just pay it without getting stroppy about the whole thing. You get the same bill every year!!! The bill must have got lost somewhere - how about you ringing up to find out what happened and solving the 'issue' without throwing your toys out of the pram. no wonder complexes have problems with attitudes like that.

SarahMollie

gordongekko wrote: »

What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.

I understand perfectly, but what I don't get is why you think a bill getting lost in the post or whatever give you the right to be so petulant?

Management companies are run by a board of directors who are typically your neighbours who volunteer their time for the good of the development. Also, chasing debts costs money, so attitudes like yours actually contribute to the costs that everyone incurs. That solicitor didnt write that letter for free, yet you see fit to throw it in the bin. What was stopping you putting in a call to the Management Agent to inquire when your fees were due?

Also, even if you didn't get the bill, you would have been sent a statement of accounts in a previous correspondence (or have online access) and the minutes from the preceding AGM which would also spell out what the fees would be and when they'd be due.

gordongekko

Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.

gordongekko

gordongekko wrote: »

What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.

it went straight into the bin and from the bin into the shed
and from the shed into a truck paid for by your neighbours just because you
didn't get your special call!! how do you not fall down more often with huge burdened brain of yours!

squidgeroo

gordongekko wrote: »

Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.

Gosh it is like dealing with a teenager. Make the call yourself and grow up!!

SarahMollie

gordongekko wrote: »

Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.

Yes and they review said fee based on the costs the incur in administering said estate the previous year. If everyone had your attitude then fees would certainly rise.

I'm a director on my management company so I know very well how these things work. People like you do cause extra work for the volunteer directors, as the MA have to run everything by the board before they act.

And make no mistake, the solicitors letter needed to be paid for, so thats a direct cost to the Management Agent which will get passed on to the management company.

There was no justifiable reason for you to ignore the solicitors letter, and not to simply be a grown up and phone the MA if it is simply an administrative error, like an adult.

davo10

It's hard to believe the stance people sometimes take when the effect actually is detrimental to themselves. Increased management company costs means increased subscriptions for muppets who cause the costs to rise by not paying their subscriptions or claiming they never got the bill, years of experience should tell even the dimmest bell ever to ring that a subscription is due. Go figure.

L1011

gordongekko wrote: »

Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.

This is a quick way to find a charge on your property and costs found against you. Your fault entirely then.

gordongekko

SarahMollie wrote: »

Yes and they review said fee based on the costs the incur in administering said estate the previous year. If everyone had your attitude then fees would certainly rise.

I'm a director on my management company so I know very well how these things work. People like you do cause extra work for the volunteer directors, as the MA have to run everything by the board before they act.

And make no mistake, the solicitors letter needed to be paid for, so thats a direct cost to the Management Agent which will get passed on to the management company.

There was no justifiable reason for you to ignore the solicitors letter, and not to simply be a grown up and phone the MA if it is simply an administrative error, like an adult.

The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.

Carlos Orange

gordongekko wrote: »

The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.

Did you actually need to be reminded?

c montgomery

Back on topic for OP

I'm a director of a management company and we have had thus issue many times in the past.

We have a payback system in place. Pay before March 1st or arrange payment plan get 10% credit the following year. After this date a 1%levy is added per month to non paying owners until they pay.
This results in most paying before march 1st.

We had one who didn't pay for 4 years but then needed the management companies help on an issue so paid.
Another did not pay for 9 years, property was rented all the time. Property was sold last year and we recovered all the money plus levy.

In all cases we sent multiple solicitors letters but I'm sure they didn't care.
It's only when they need your help or the property is being sold that you'll get your money.

You should not have to pay for Windows in a private apartment, only shared spaces.

c montgomery

gordongekko wrote: »

The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.

Maybe the reminder letter went to the same place as the original bill.

Do you not attend management Co. Meetings?

Paulw

We employ multiple approaches.

Those who pay upfront or by standing order each year get a 10% reduction.
Those who fall behind or do not have a standing order get no reduction.
Those who fall more than 1 year behind have access to the common area/parking denied, and no parking permit so are clamped in the common parking area.
Those who fall more than 2 years behind, with no engagement to pay get a solicitor's letter.
If no response within 2 months, after a reminder solicitor's letter, we begin court proceedings.
To date, all cases that have gone fully legal and to court we have won.

Year on year, we have over 90% who pay up front or by standing order.
In total, our income to budget is approx 98% even considering those in arrears.

In the end, they all pay. No way around it.

Oh, and anyone who gets a solicitor's letter, the charge for the solicitor goes on their fees, as well as interest on late payment of fees, as set out in the Lease Contract everyone signs when they buy a property.

MackMack

How are they renting out their apartment? AirBnB or some other letting agency? Is it short term or long term renting?

More importantly if you want to really go nuclear on him ring Revenue to see if he has paid taxes on his rental income. Or just inform them the apartment is being rented out as they probably won't tell you if he is paying taxes on it.

If you don't want to go that far yet a threat to inform Revenue of it if he doesn't pay up might work.

gordongekko

gordongekko wrote: »

The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.

Why are you even waiting for a bill, you pay it every year and I assume its the same amount so why were you not just paying it without being asked.

I'm surprised you even get a bill, I would have assumed its just something people know to pay themselves every year. You are being awkward for the sake of it and deserved to be slapped with extra charges.

Paulw

Kenna Better Oxygen wrote: »

Why are you even waiting for a bill, you pay it every year and I assume its the same amount so why were you not just paying it without being asked.

I'm surprised you even get a bill, I would have assumed its just something people know to pay themselves every year.

In many cases, fees do change from year to year. Up a little, down a little, up a little, etc, depending on costs, the biggest being insurance. Insurance claims drive up fees, while no fees can bring a drop in fees.

But, overall, fees would tend to be similar year on year.

I still don't agree with the poster's stance, but either way, they will pay, as well as pay for the cost of the solicitor's letter, etc.

Lantus

Antar,

I would be concerned that anyone other than the directors and agent has knowledge of non payers. That's a breach of data protection and the directors could face action against them on this matter.

The omc should not of made any repair on that unit where it didn't affect another unit VB if fees were unpaid. Windows as per the lease are nearly always the unit owners responsibility unless it was common area sections. Spending company money on private individuals property is at best negligent and at worst fraud and mis appropriation of company money.

The directors need to toughen up and apply the lease in any way possible to restrict services. Letters to revenue and prtb may help but are a long shot.

Removing access to a common entrance by changing locks is far more effective.

Paulw

Lantus wrote: »

Letters to revenue and prtb may help but are a long shot.

Letters to the Revenue or RTB won't get the management company any money. It will only impact on the unit owner and the Revenue or RTB.

No point in wasting company time with those routes. Just go the direct legal route, if needed. It takes a little time, but does work.

Antar Bolaeisk

starshine1234 wrote: »

I've tried to download lists from them as well and it was very difficult.

I can't remember exactly what the problem was but I was able to get the list in the end. I downloaded an .xls list.

Keep trying for the list. The system is very bad but it does work in the end. Finding a person or an address on the list can be very hard as there is no consistency, addresses are all over the place, and people can use the Irish language etc for their addresses.

It really is a terrible system.

I can find the list but every time I try to download the file it makes me log in, once I'm logged in I can't get back to the list without getting logged out again at which point the cycle repeats.

psinno wrote: »

Shortly after I moved into my current apartment the management company disabled all the key fobs and issued new ones to the owners who were fully paid up.

We recently did the whole changing of the locks routine (no fancy key fobs around here ) which is a relatively awkward exercise to be doing on a regular basis. I'm fairly certain this person didn't get a key at the time so I'm not sure how they're getting in and out.

c montgomery wrote: »

Back on topic for OP

I'm a director of a management company and we have had thus issue many times in the past.

We have a payback system in place. Pay before March 1st or arrange payment plan get 10% credit the following year. After this date a 1%levy is added per month to non paying owners until they pay.
This results in most paying before march 1st.

We had one who didn't pay for 4 years but then needed the management companies help on an issue so paid.
Another did not pay for 9 years, property was rented all the time. Property was sold last year and we recovered all the money plus levy.

In all cases we sent multiple solicitors letters but I'm sure they didn't care.
It's only when they need your help or the property is being sold that you'll get your money.

You should not have to pay for Windows in a private apartment, only shared spaces.

We do something similar, once the fees for the year are agreed upon at the AGM there's a timetable laid out for payment. If we pay within a certain time there's a E100 discount.

Lantus wrote: »

Antar,

I would be concerned that anyone other than the directors and agent has knowledge of non payers. That's a breach of data protection and the directors could face action against them on this matter.

The omc should not of made any repair on that unit where it didn't affect another unit VB if fees were unpaid. Windows as per the lease are nearly always the unit owners responsibility unless it was common area sections. Spending company money on private individuals property is at best negligent and at worst fraud and mis appropriation of company money.

The directors need to toughen up and apply the lease in any way possible to restrict services. Letters to revenue and prtb may help but are a long shot.

Removing access to a common entrance by changing locks is far more effective.

It's our own management company of which we're all members. Damage was in the common area.

Lantus

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

We recently did the whole changing of the locks routine (no fancy key fobs around here ) which is a relatively awkward exercise to be doing on a regular basis. I'm fairly certain this person didn't get a key at the time so I'm not sure how they're getting in and out.


It's our own management company of which we're all members. Damage was in the common area.

Not sure what you mean by your own omc? Is it a Ltd company by guarantee with the company in every contract lease at the point if sale? Or not? Occasionally the articles do allow payment schedules to be divulged. Generally it's a no no.

I would investigate the lock. In a large block they
May either be getting help from another tenant or their agent.

The way around this is keys that cannot be cut except by the original locksmith. We have issued these and had estate agents down to get copies cut within the hour. The locksmith rang to let me know. Really pissed them off as a lot of the landlord's were not paying fees. I would look at additional security as well beyond keys. Expensive but long term the only real solution.

Kings Inns or bust

OP, IF you can manage it it's a waiting game. Keep charging the management fee, keep adding the interest and keep billing for any damage you can prove, on the balance of probabilities, was the result of the occupants of the apartment in question. Anything that's witnessed or recorded on CCTV, make sure you are involving the guards.

Eventually the person will come to sell and that's when you can recoup your losses as they can't complete the sale without going through the OMC, assuming your company constitution and leases are properly drafted, of course. Doing anything else, locks, clamping etc. etc. is just a hassle for you.

I do stress that's if you're OMC can facilitate that. I do feel for people in smaller complexes. Then your only option is the legal route which is probably going to be ineffective once it comes to enforcement.

Kings Inns or bust

Sorry I can't edit posts for some reason. I just wished to express some doubts over the legalities of changing locks etc. even in common areas. I suspect if tested it would be quite expensive for the OMC.

Lantus

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

Sorry I can't edit posts for some reason. I just wished to express some doubts over the legalities of changing locks etc. even in common areas. I suspect if tested it would be quite expensive for the OMC.

It's a fairly standard approach for a lot of omcs. They own the common areas and owners have right of access as per the main contract lease. The lease will typically state subject to all fees being paid however.

Marcusm

Lantus wrote: »

It's a fairly standard approach for a lot of omcs. They own the common areas and owners have right of access as per the main contract lease. The lease will typically state subject to all fees being paid however.

Standard but probably not lawful. The right of way is required to achieve the quiet enjoyment covenant of the lease which is absolute unless the lease is forfeit. A number of people have suggested that the covenants are interdependent but have not tabled any relevant clauses. I'd love to see them if they exist. (And no, I am not condoning any non payers or late payers.)

Lantus

Marcusm wrote: »

Standard but probably not lawful. The right of way is required to achieve the quiet enjoyment covenant of the lease which is absolute unless the lease is forfeit. A number of people have suggested that the covenants are interdependent but have not tabled any relevant clauses. I'd love to see them if they exist. (And no, I am not condoning any non payers or late payers.)

I guess it will take a court case to decide. Omcs need better powers of enforcement though. The existing legal system of debt collection is too lengthy and costly. Companies are failing or being taken to the brink of failure through non payers. Developments are bevoming run down and often have faults from day 1.

The mud act is toothless and almost impossible to enforce.

Kings Inns or bust

Lantus wrote: »

I guess it will take a court case to decide. Omcs need better powers of enforcement though. The existing legal system of debt collection is too lengthy and costly. Companies are failing or being taken to the brink of failure through non payers. Developments are bevoming run down and often have faults from day 1.

The mud act is toothless and almost impossible to enforce.

They do and they don't really. As I say there is an issue in regard to smaller complexes but ultimately self-interest takes over at some point. Enforcement is a tricky one, how do you get blood out of a stone?

Ultimately OMC's have the perfect judgement mortgage on apartments without ever having set foot in court or accruing legal fees.

Lantus

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

They do and they don't really. As I say there is an issue in regard to smaller complexes but ultimately self-interest takes over at some point. Enforcement is a tricky one, how do you get blood out of a stone?

Ultimately OMC's have the perfect judgement mortgage on apartments without ever having set foot in court or accruing legal fees.

What do you mean by perfect judgement mortgage?

Kings Inns or bust

Lantus wrote: »

What do you mean by perfect judgement mortgage?

A way of recovering debt is to place a mortgage over someone's property. One might not have the means to pay €15K in back management fees but there is an asset there which can be encumbered. The OMC generally have the power to require arrears in management fees are paid before any sale closing so the net effect is the same.

Lantus

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

A way of recovering debt is to place a mortgage over someone's property. One might not have the means to pay €15K in back management fees but there is an asset there which can be encumbered. The OMC generally have the power to require arrears in management fees are paid before any sale closing so the net effect is the same.

Is this not generally sought after normal debt recovery? I don't think you can jump straight to a judgement mortgage in terms of legal process. So several expensive trips to court to get this.

Also, it's not an ideal solution. It lasts 10 years before you need to renew it. Insurance and critical maintenance is required annually.

Edit: waiting for a property sale with no legal judgement typically only nets you the last 6 years of fees. That's the statute of limitations.

Kings Inns or bust

Lantus wrote: »

Is this not generally sought after normal debt recovery? I don't think you can jump straight to a judgement mortgage in terms of legal process. So several expensive trips to court to get this.

Also, it's not an ideal solution. It lasts 10 years before you need to renew it. Insurance and critical maintenance is required annually.

Edit: waiting for a property sale with no legal judgement typically only nets you the last 6 years of fees. That's the statute of limitations.

You're kinda making my point for me there.

There is no real alternative for OMCs. If it comes to it they'd have to start eviction proceedings. By that point though there's very little chance there will be a functioning OMC and therefore the properties become almost unmarketable.

Edit: You're referring, I believe, to S11 of the SoL - I don't believe management fees fall under that section.