If the Norman had not come here

What do you think would have happened in Ireland.


If the Irish Chiefs and Chieftains has not been decimated by the Norman invasions. The clan's would have eventually become an Irish aristocracy with massive estates the same as the imposed English aristocracy, although with an ingrained Irish culture. As we did not have an industrial revolution we would have ended up an Irish peasant/aristocracy culture similar to France, Maybe we wouldn't have had the famine but us peasants would have been very poor working our tiny plots of leased land and eventually somehow the Chieftains aristocracy would have been over trow and the land distributed? and a modern democracy emerge? We would all be duel Irish/English speakers with a unique culture?.

Fratton Fred

mariaalice wrote: »

What do you think would have happened in Ireland.


If the Irish Chiefs and Chieftains has not been decimated by the Norman invasions. The clan's would have eventually become an Irish aristocracy with massive estates the same as the imposed English aristocracy, although with an ingrained Irish culture. As we did not have an industrial revolution we would have ended up an Irish peasant/aristocracy culture similar to France, Maybe we wouldn't have had the famine but us peasants would have been very poor working our tiny plots of leased land and eventually somehow the Chieftains aristocracy would have been over trow and the land distributed? and a modern democracy emerge? We would all be duel Irish/English speakers with a unique culture?.

I would imagine something like Scotland.

Duckworth_Luas

Whatever about the Norman, when's the Donald visiting again?

Squall Leonhart

Thought you were talking about Harvey Norman haha

Nekarsulm

What happened to the old adage: "Became more Irish, than the Irish themselves"?

looksee

mariaalice wrote: »

What do you think would have happened in Ireland.


If the Irish Chiefs and Chieftains has not been decimated by the Norman invasions. The clan's would have eventually become an Irish aristocracy with massive estates the same as the imposed English aristocracy, although with an ingrained Irish culture. As we did not have an industrial revolution we would have ended up an Irish peasant/aristocracy culture similar to France, Maybe we wouldn't have had the famine but us peasants would have been very poor working our tiny plots of leased land and eventually somehow the Chieftains aristocracy would have been over trow and the land distributed? and a modern democracy emerge? We would all be duel Irish/English speakers with a unique culture?.

The Normans came in to clatter the Vikings, not the Irish. They came at the request of an Irish chief.

BabyE

looksee wrote: »

The Normans came in to clatter the Vikings, not the Irish. They came at the request of an Irish chief.

The Normans were vikings.

mordeith

Whatever about the Normans coming to Ireland the most important question is 'Who's taking the horse to France?'

fatknacker

We wouldn't have all the lovely castles we have now.
Just a load of beehive huts and stone circles made of mud.

Fratton Fred

mordeith wrote: »

Whatever about the Normans coming to Ireland the most important question is 'Who's taking the horse to France?'

Have you asked the horse what the story is?

ShadyAcres

The Norman's were french, led by William the conqueror.

Edit I'm wrong. Just looked at wiki ☺

Nekarsulm

looksee wrote: »

The Normans came in to clatter the Vikings, not the Irish. They came at the request of an Irish chief.

The Normans were Viking a few hundred years before. Norman is a corruption of "Nord Man", after they settled in northern France.

Nekarsulm

ShadyAcres wrote: »

The Norman's were french, led by William the conqueror.

Edit I'm wrong. Just looked at wiki ☺

And of course, what we now call English, are also from Norman stock, for the last 1000 years.

Junkyard Tom

fatknacker wrote: »

stone circles made of mud.

Stone circles made of mud.

fatknacker

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Stone circles made of mud.

That's what I said.

Junkyard Tom

fatknacker wrote: »

That's what I said.

Are you interested in buying some gold jewelry made of steel off me?

fatknacker

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Are you interested in buying some gold jewelry made of steel off me?

Depends. Is it stone steel or mud steel?

Olishi4

Well looking at the origin of my surname, I wouldn't exist!

Stigura

" Stone Circles Made Of Mud " ? That's quite catchy, that. I might have to become a rock star ~ so I can release an album called that.

uck51js9zml2yt

Olishi4 wrote: »

Well looking at the origin of my surname, I wouldn't exist!

My family came from Spain, I'm ok. It was a good job they could swim.

NoCrackHaving

Nekarsulm wrote: »

And of course, what we now call English, are also from Norman stock, for the last 1000 years.

They're not actually, the Normans had a negligible impact on the English gene pool like most invaders. With the exception of East Anglia most English people are nearly entirely descended from the original Mesolithic settlers.

RobertKK

Kilkenny castle would not exist, thank you Normans and your good builders.

JupiterKid

The Normans were a mix of Viking and native Northern French. I doubt there would have been the possibility that they would have not invaded Ireland. England was always going to overpower us at some stage.

BTW my surname originates in the North of Holland but its been in Ireland since around the time of the Norman conquest.

Sand

The Normans didn't actually decimate the Irish chiefs or chieftains. The certainly turned the Gaelic power structure upside down with a band of Normans arriving like 16th century conquistadors in Mexico and tearing the place up. But the Normans from the very start married into the Gaelic nobility and recruited and led Gaelic followers and played into the Gaelic alliances and rivalries. Strongbow afterall came to Ireland as an ally of a Gaelic king and married his daughter to seal the alliance, and his Gaelic allies remained loyal to Strongbow throughout his various battles and struggles with Gaelic rivals and the English crown. The Norman-Gaelic alliances/struggles of the 12th and 13th and 14th centuries are one of the most interesting parts of Irish history with historical events straight out of Game of Thrones (or vice versa) such as inviting all your neighbours to a feast and then slaughtering them, deliberate and strategic use of rape to disqualify nuns from their positions of power, peace-talks devolving into bloodbaths and an Irish High-King fighting simultaneous civil wars against his grandfather, his uncles, several of his brothers and his sons whilst his kingdom is invaded by nigh-invincible invaders from across the sea. Meanwhile, the English crown looks on with increasing concern as independent Norman freebooters carve out kingdoms for themselves outside the crowns control.

If the Normans had never arrived, its likely the Gaelic orders would have continued to centralise and be influenced by the Normans and the Norman Church in any case. Gaelic kings were rooted in Brehon law and Gaelic culture which assigned them loose powers and almost ceremonial positions, but they were being heavily influenced by Norman ideas of Kings and their rights which were carried to Ireland by the Church and the monastic orders - Gaelic rulers liked the idea of absolute power and being designated rulers by God, as much as any brutal medieval warlord. And the Church wanted local brutal medieval warlords/kings they could make deals with. So there was already huge centralising drift in Irish politics. Since Brian Boru, the High Kingship of Ireland was seen as open to anyone with the strength to take it where previously it had been an almost ceremonial title considered the domain of the O'Neills only. Meanwhile the tribal Gaelic kings had centralised to the level of provincal powers with armies, forts, and even fleets. They claimed and fought each other for that title, as the Anglo-Saxons had done before them in England. Strongbow was summoned to Ireland because Irish kings had contacts and connections with the Normans already in Wales, England and France. The Irish Kings were already part of the Norman world. Even if the Normans hadn't directly taken power in Ireland they would have heavily influenced Irish concepts of Kings and their rights.

As it was, what decimated the Gaelic order was two accidents of history. 1. The Norman King John of Ireland outlived all his brothers and became King John of England, which forever tied the crown of Ireland to the crown of England in a way that was never initially intended. 2. Henry the VIII wanted to marry his mistress. This required an invalidation of the authority of the Catholic Church, but this was a redline for the old Irish/Norman families whose legitimacy relied on their conquest of Ireland as an order from the Catholic Church. This conflict with the dominant English narrative led their destruction, and with them the Gaelic order they were a part of and allied to.

Undercover Elephant

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The Normans were Viking a few hundred years before. Norman is a corruption of "Nord Man", after they settled in northern France.

Didn't know that bit. It seems obvious now. Thank you.

Yes but would we have ended up with a home grow aristocracy, and opposed to the Anglo Irish one and because they would be Irish would we have identified with them more.

Sand

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes but would we have ended up with a home grow aristocracy, and opposed to the Anglo Irish one and because they would be Irish would we have identified with them more.

That reminds me of an Irish journalist/republican/socalist whose name escapes me who wrote that Irish republicanism has long objected to foreigners exploiting the poor Irish people, when there was Irishmen perfectly willing to do the job themselves. Something we see in our politicians and civil service today.

I don't think the peasant starving in a hut has ever really identified with the aristocracy living lives of unimaginable wealth and power. Even in England as recently as 1819, the English aristocracy unleashed a fricking heavy cavalry charge on people gathering to call for parliamentary reform - the Tienanmen Square of its era. It doesn't really speak to common cause between the ruled and the rulers in even the most powerful and wealthy superpower.

I have visited several of the grand old houses of the Anglo Irish nobility in Ireland. They are usually built on the same site as the original Norman forts that preceded them. And they are all impressive structures, which were built by taxing the wealth of tens of thousands of tenants who were squeezed to provide the funds to build the pretty lakes, gardens and palaces. Regardless of who lived in those grand old houses, there would never be common cause or identification with the people they were squeezing.

As it was, it was actually the Anglo-Irish who reinvented modern Irish identity separate to British identity, rebirthed the Gaelic language, and 'Celtic' traditions and indeed Irish nationalism however unwittingly. Plenty of modern Irish republicans would and do happily identify with Anglo-Irish figures.

Mint Aero

to question ones own derived cultural identity is to question ones place in a world within a world. The world which has been forged cannot be undone without the smelting iron from whence it came. The coldness of steel shears the grain to which you bear your arms.

Eamondomc

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes but would we have ended up with a home grow aristocracy, and opposed to the Anglo Irish one and because they would be Irish would we have identified with them more.

We,d have had an Irish revolution and beheaded them all by now anyway.
But if we had a king I reckon it would have been an O Brien!

endacl

fatknacker wrote: »

That's what I said.

Which would be mud circles, I guess was the point?

Kinda like a wooden bridge made out of cake?

Whooooooosh.....?

jimmy blevins

Afters hours may be a lot of thing's but historically accurate it's not.

jimmy blevins

jimmy blevins wrote: »

Afters hours may be a lot of thing's but historically accurate it's not.

Well its more of cultural question.

machiavellianme

JupiterKid wrote: »

The Normans were a mix of Viking and native Northern French. I doubt there would have been the possibility that they would have not invaded Ireland. England was always going to overpower us at some stage.

BTW my surname originates in the North of Holland but its been in Ireland since around the time of the Norman conquest.

Ah the old Jupiterkid family from the North Netherlands, know them well.

Badly Drunk Boy

machiavellianme wrote: »

Ah the old Jupiterkid family from the North Netherlands, know them well.

Van der Jupiterkid, I think.

baaba maal

jimmy blevins wrote: »

Afters hours may be a lot of thing's but historically accurate it's not.

In fairness, Sand pretty much summarised the whole thing in one brilliant post. Very insightful stuff (and I hope this doesn't read as being sarcastic, it is a gift to be able to reduce such a big complicated historical era into a few well-assembled paragraphs imho).

dresden8

Eamondomc wrote: »

We,d have had an Irish revolution and beheaded them all by now anyway.
But if we had a king I reckon it would have been an O Brien!

Jaysus, not that fncker who had "a corrupt relationship" with a certain politician.....

BabyE

It is a fascinating question in alternate history.

dresden8

The Normans were a virus that spread all over Europe and the middle east. They were a machine, we were never going to escape them.

Charles Babbage

No Normans, no sugar, no rabbits, no gassons.

Things evolve anyway, my boss who used to be a decent enough skin, now thinks he is a medieval king.

D!armu!d

Sand wrote: »

The Norman-Gaelic alliances/struggles of the 12th and 13th and 14th centuries are one of the most interesting parts of Irish history....

Any good books to read up on this ?

D!armu!d

D!armu!d wrote: »

Any good books to read up on this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donal_Cam_O%27Sullivan_Bearen

After the fall of Dursey and Dunboy, O'Sullivan Beare, Lord of Beara and Bantry, gathered his remaining followers and set off northwards on a 500 kilometre march with 1,000 of his remaining people, starting on 31 December 1602. He hoped to meet Hugh O'Neill on the shores of Lough Neagh.

or

Hugh Roe O'Donnell (later Earl of Tyrconnell) had escaped the castle in the previous year, only to be betrayed while on the run. His second attempt was a success, and although he suffered frostbite O'Donnell was guided to Glenmalure, whence O'Byrne despatched him home to the province of Ulster. The grave of Art O'Neill (son of Shane O'Neill), a fellow prisoner who died during the escape, lies south-west of Granabeg towards Glenmalure, in the townland of Oakwood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiach_McHugh_O%27Byrne

That is two random bits of history about the decline and end of the clan system in Ireland. It is a very interesting subject.

Jawgap

Squall Leonhart wrote: »

Thought you were talking about Harvey Norman haha

Really?......

I thought he was talking about Fatboy Slim's gig in Belfast tomorrow - so I was going to say they'd have probably got someone else for that slot!! :D:D

jmayo

Olishi4 wrote: »

Well looking at the origin of my surname, I wouldn't exist!

Actually just reminded me ...
if the Normans had never come here we wouldn't have to put up with that singer with the massive eyebrows and the insufferable daughter.
Fecking Normans. :mad:

mariaalice wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donal_Cam_O%27Sullivan_Bearen

Hugh Roe O'Donnell (later Earl of Tyrconnell) had escaped the castle in the previous year, only to be betrayed while on the run. His second attempt was a success, and although he suffered frostbite O'Donnell was guided to Glenmalure, whence O'Byrne despatched him home to the province of Ulster. The grave of Art O'Neill (son of Shane O'Neill), a fellow prisoner who died during the escape, lies south-west of Granabeg towards Glenmalure, in the townland of Oakwood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiach_McHugh_O%27Byrne

That is two random bits of history about the decline and end of the clan system in Ireland. It is a very interesting subject.

And every year one can relive their journey by doing the Art O'Neill challenge from Dublin Castle to Glenmalure.
BTW bring multiple torches.

Sand

D!armu!d wrote: »

Any good books to read up on this ?

Well, you could read through 'A New History of Ireland Vol II: Medieval Ireland 1169-1534'. Be warned, its a book big enough that you could reasonably expect to beat someone to death with it. But it certainly covers the politics, society, struggles of the era in the level of detail you need to get the scale of what happened in Ireland. For example, Strongbows campaign in Ireland was simultaneous with a political struggle with an English king who hated him and wanted him to fail and die in Ireland. Strongbow won some desperate victories against the Irish but was eventually forced to travel to France to seek aid from that king. Which he managed to pull off. There is characters like Hugh De Lacey who was a Tywin Lannister figure in Norman Ireland for decades - to the point where he intimidated the supposed King of Ireland, John, into fleeing back to England such was his power in the country. He too suffered a very poetic end. There are conquistadors like John De Courcy who arrived in Ireland as a mercenary and adventurer and ended up carving out a practically independent kingdom for himself in eastern Ulster by sword and by marriage. And the aforementioned feasts and peace-talks ending in slaughter - suffice to say if you were a Gaelic noble and your Norman neighbour invited you to dinner, you ought to arrive in numbers and heavily armed if at all. And then you have the Gaelic kings, like Diarmait who was an amoral ruler of his time with some deeds to prove it.

There is also stories so unbelievable you would think they are made up, such as Thomas FitzGerald, 5th Earl of Desmond. He was out hunting, a storm struck so he took shelter at the home of one his Gaelic vassals, the MacCormacs. There he set eyes on his vassals daughter and fell in love, which was a bad idea for a brutal medieval warlord. He married her despite her being far below his station in life. Though romantic, this caused a scandal, and his uncle led a faction to overthrow him and he died in exile in France - though his tale was famous enough that the Kings of England and France attended his funeral, and he had two sons with his wife. So maybe not all a loss.

I think its the most fascinating period of Irish history tbh. There are no heroes. No right side of history, and no side we are supposed to cheer for. For instance, the Bruce Invasions, which occasioned the first explicit pan-Gaelic cause against a common English enemy when the Scots invaded Ireland. Braveheart buddies right? But the Scottish army lived off the land and inflicted such hardship and famine on the Gaelic Irish that they celebrated as much as the English did at the final defeat of the Bruce army. Politics today are complicated, politics then were complicated too.

ClovenHoof

Sand's post is a bit odd. He states that Brehon Law was defacto in Ireland, yet the Irish power classes were influenced by the Normans. This is the part I do not get.

He also demonstrates this typical sense of Irish self hatred in regards to the implication that Irish kings were murderous dictators while the Norman were a civilizing force.

The Harrying of the North whereby, the Norman basically killed everything in the north of England from the common snail up, was a savage act of murderous and planned genocide, and yet here is the thread's resident historian acting as if the Irish were mad killers and the Normans the paragons of virtue.

buried

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Sand's post is a bit odd. He states that Brehon Law was defacto in Ireland, yet the Irish power classes were influenced by the Normans. This is the part I do not get.

He also demonstrates this typical sense of Irish self hatred in regards to the comment about Irish kings were murderous dictators while the Norman were a civilizing force.

The Harrying of the North whereby the Norman basically killed everything in the north of England from a common snail up was a savage act of murderous and planned genocide, and yet here is the thread's resident historian acting as if the Irish were mad killers and the Normans the paragons of virtue.

Yeah, well said. I actually never heard of that atrocity until I read 'The Norman Conquest' by Marc Morris (good read for anyone interested here BTW). Crazy brutal stuff.

ClovenHoof

buried wrote: »

Yeah, well said. I actually never heard of that atrocity until I read 'The Norman Conquest' by Marc Morris (good read for anyone interested here BTW). Crazy brutal stuff.

The Harrying of the North was perhaps the first genocide in Europe and took place long before the Cathar Crusade. The Normans were brutal and efficient killers who really only brought crushing taxation and totalitarian rule to these islands.

Culturally they were a wasteland, while the Medieval Irish had a culture which would have been the envy of much of Europe at the time and one which even seduced the Normans and English.

I think the cheap Chinese dye from Sand's annual Great War poppy on his collar has leaked into this skin. The Irish were a more moderate and far more cultured society than the genocide happy and totalitarian rule imposing Normans.

buried

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The Harrying of the North was perhaps the first genocide in Europe and took place long before the Cathar Crusade. The Normans were brutal and efficient killers who really only brought crushing taxation and totalitarian rule to these islands.

Any good books you could recommend on that period and place? Only ones I've read are the Morris one and David Carpenter's 'The Struggle for Mastery', plus the heavy propaganda writing of 'Gerald of Wales' from that timeline. Would appreciate it Clovenhoof!

ClovenHoof

buried wrote: »

Any good books you could recommend on that period and place? Only ones I've read are the Morris one and David Carpenter's 'The Struggle for Mastery', plus the heavy propaganda writing of 'Gerald of Wales' from that timeline. Would appreciate it Clovenhoof!

as you yourself cited The Norman Conquest by Marc Morris is a great place to start.

“I persecuted the native inhabitants of England beyond all reason. Whether nobles or commons, I cruelly oppressed them; many I unjustly disinherited; innumerable multitudes, especially in the county of York, perished through me by famine and sword…I am stained with the rivers of blood that I have shed.” - William of Normandy

“In his anger at the English barons, William commanded that all crops and herds, chattels and foods should be burned to ashes, so that the whole of the North be stripped of all means of survival. So terrible a famine fell upon the people, that more than 100,000 young and old starved to death. My writings have often praised William, but for this act I can only condemn him.” - Orderic Vitalis

There's the great civilizing force for you.

buried

ClovenHoof wrote: »

as another posted cited The Norman Conquest by Marc Morris is a great place to start.

lol That was me man!:)

Your Face

Well they did come, so why waste your time?
We're still dealing what actually happened.