If the Norman had not come here

mariaalice

What do you think would have happened in Ireland.


If the Irish Chiefs and Chieftains has not been decimated by the Norman invasions. The clan's would have eventually become an Irish aristocracy with massive estates the same as the imposed English aristocracy, although with an ingrained Irish culture. As we did not have an industrial revolution we would have ended up an Irish peasant/aristocracy culture similar to France, Maybe we wouldn't have had the famine but us peasants would have been very poor working our tiny plots of leased land and eventually somehow the Chieftains aristocracy would have been over trow and the land distributed? and a modern democracy emerge? We would all be duel Irish/English speakers with a unique culture?.

Fratton Fred

mariaalice wrote: »

What do you think would have happened in Ireland.


If the Irish Chiefs and Chieftains has not been decimated by the Norman invasions. The clan's would have eventually become an Irish aristocracy with massive estates the same as the imposed English aristocracy, although with an ingrained Irish culture. As we did not have an industrial revolution we would have ended up an Irish peasant/aristocracy culture similar to France, Maybe we wouldn't have had the famine but us peasants would have been very poor working our tiny plots of leased land and eventually somehow the Chieftains aristocracy would have been over trow and the land distributed? and a modern democracy emerge? We would all be duel Irish/English speakers with a unique culture?.

I would imagine something like Scotland.

Duckworth_Luas

Whatever about the Norman, when's the Donald visiting again?

Squall Leonhart

Thought you were talking about Harvey Norman haha

Nekarsulm

What happened to the old adage: "Became more Irish, than the Irish themselves"?

looksee

mariaalice wrote: »

What do you think would have happened in Ireland.


If the Irish Chiefs and Chieftains has not been decimated by the Norman invasions. The clan's would have eventually become an Irish aristocracy with massive estates the same as the imposed English aristocracy, although with an ingrained Irish culture. As we did not have an industrial revolution we would have ended up an Irish peasant/aristocracy culture similar to France, Maybe we wouldn't have had the famine but us peasants would have been very poor working our tiny plots of leased land and eventually somehow the Chieftains aristocracy would have been over trow and the land distributed? and a modern democracy emerge? We would all be duel Irish/English speakers with a unique culture?.

The Normans came in to clatter the Vikings, not the Irish. They came at the request of an Irish chief.

BabyE

looksee wrote: »

The Normans came in to clatter the Vikings, not the Irish. They came at the request of an Irish chief.

The Normans were vikings.

mordeith

Whatever about the Normans coming to Ireland the most important question is 'Who's taking the horse to France?'

fatknacker

We wouldn't have all the lovely castles we have now.
Just a load of beehive huts and stone circles made of mud.

Fratton Fred

mordeith wrote: »

Whatever about the Normans coming to Ireland the most important question is 'Who's taking the horse to France?'

Have you asked the horse what the story is?

ShadyAcres

The Norman's were french, led by William the conqueror.

Edit I'm wrong. Just looked at wiki ☺

Nekarsulm

looksee wrote: »

The Normans came in to clatter the Vikings, not the Irish. They came at the request of an Irish chief.

The Normans were Viking a few hundred years before. Norman is a corruption of "Nord Man", after they settled in northern France.

Nekarsulm

ShadyAcres wrote: »

The Norman's were french, led by William the conqueror.

Edit I'm wrong. Just looked at wiki ☺

And of course, what we now call English, are also from Norman stock, for the last 1000 years.

Junkyard Tom

fatknacker wrote: »

stone circles made of mud.

Stone circles made of mud.

fatknacker

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Stone circles made of mud.

That's what I said.

Junkyard Tom

fatknacker wrote: »

That's what I said.

Are you interested in buying some gold jewelry made of steel off me?

fatknacker

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Are you interested in buying some gold jewelry made of steel off me?

Depends. Is it stone steel or mud steel?

Olishi4

Well looking at the origin of my surname, I wouldn't exist!

Stigura

" Stone Circles Made Of Mud " ? That's quite catchy, that. I might have to become a rock star ~ so I can release an album called that.

uck51js9zml2yt

Olishi4 wrote: »

Well looking at the origin of my surname, I wouldn't exist!

My family came from Spain, I'm ok. It was a good job they could swim.

NoCrackHaving

Nekarsulm wrote: »

And of course, what we now call English, are also from Norman stock, for the last 1000 years.

They're not actually, the Normans had a negligible impact on the English gene pool like most invaders. With the exception of East Anglia most English people are nearly entirely descended from the original Mesolithic settlers.

RobertKK

Kilkenny castle would not exist, thank you Normans and your good builders.

JupiterKid

The Normans were a mix of Viking and native Northern French. I doubt there would have been the possibility that they would have not invaded Ireland. England was always going to overpower us at some stage.

BTW my surname originates in the North of Holland but its been in Ireland since around the time of the Norman conquest.

Sand

The Normans didn't actually decimate the Irish chiefs or chieftains. The certainly turned the Gaelic power structure upside down with a band of Normans arriving like 16th century conquistadors in Mexico and tearing the place up. But the Normans from the very start married into the Gaelic nobility and recruited and led Gaelic followers and played into the Gaelic alliances and rivalries. Strongbow afterall came to Ireland as an ally of a Gaelic king and married his daughter to seal the alliance, and his Gaelic allies remained loyal to Strongbow throughout his various battles and struggles with Gaelic rivals and the English crown. The Norman-Gaelic alliances/struggles of the 12th and 13th and 14th centuries are one of the most interesting parts of Irish history with historical events straight out of Game of Thrones (or vice versa) such as inviting all your neighbours to a feast and then slaughtering them, deliberate and strategic use of rape to disqualify nuns from their positions of power, peace-talks devolving into bloodbaths and an Irish High-King fighting simultaneous civil wars against his grandfather, his uncles, several of his brothers and his sons whilst his kingdom is invaded by nigh-invincible invaders from across the sea. Meanwhile, the English crown looks on with increasing concern as independent Norman freebooters carve out kingdoms for themselves outside the crowns control.

If the Normans had never arrived, its likely the Gaelic orders would have continued to centralise and be influenced by the Normans and the Norman Church in any case. Gaelic kings were rooted in Brehon law and Gaelic culture which assigned them loose powers and almost ceremonial positions, but they were being heavily influenced by Norman ideas of Kings and their rights which were carried to Ireland by the Church and the monastic orders - Gaelic rulers liked the idea of absolute power and being designated rulers by God, as much as any brutal medieval warlord. And the Church wanted local brutal medieval warlords/kings they could make deals with. So there was already huge centralising drift in Irish politics. Since Brian Boru, the High Kingship of Ireland was seen as open to anyone with the strength to take it where previously it had been an almost ceremonial title considered the domain of the O'Neills only. Meanwhile the tribal Gaelic kings had centralised to the level of provincal powers with armies, forts, and even fleets. They claimed and fought each other for that title, as the Anglo-Saxons had done before them in England. Strongbow was summoned to Ireland because Irish kings had contacts and connections with the Normans already in Wales, England and France. The Irish Kings were already part of the Norman world. Even if the Normans hadn't directly taken power in Ireland they would have heavily influenced Irish concepts of Kings and their rights.

As it was, what decimated the Gaelic order was two accidents of history. 1. The Norman King John of Ireland outlived all his brothers and became King John of England, which forever tied the crown of Ireland to the crown of England in a way that was never initially intended. 2. Henry the VIII wanted to marry his mistress. This required an invalidation of the authority of the Catholic Church, but this was a redline for the old Irish/Norman families whose legitimacy relied on their conquest of Ireland as an order from the Catholic Church. This conflict with the dominant English narrative led their destruction, and with them the Gaelic order they were a part of and allied to.

Undercover Elephant

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The Normans were Viking a few hundred years before. Norman is a corruption of "Nord Man", after they settled in northern France.

Didn't know that bit. It seems obvious now. Thank you.

mariaalice

Yes but would we have ended up with a home grow aristocracy, and opposed to the Anglo Irish one and because they would be Irish would we have identified with them more.

Sand

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes but would we have ended up with a home grow aristocracy, and opposed to the Anglo Irish one and because they would be Irish would we have identified with them more.

That reminds me of an Irish journalist/republican/socalist whose name escapes me who wrote that Irish republicanism has long objected to foreigners exploiting the poor Irish people, when there was Irishmen perfectly willing to do the job themselves. Something we see in our politicians and civil service today.

I don't think the peasant starving in a hut has ever really identified with the aristocracy living lives of unimaginable wealth and power. Even in England as recently as 1819, the English aristocracy unleashed a fricking heavy cavalry charge on people gathering to call for parliamentary reform - the Tienanmen Square of its era. It doesn't really speak to common cause between the ruled and the rulers in even the most powerful and wealthy superpower.

I have visited several of the grand old houses of the Anglo Irish nobility in Ireland. They are usually built on the same site as the original Norman forts that preceded them. And they are all impressive structures, which were built by taxing the wealth of tens of thousands of tenants who were squeezed to provide the funds to build the pretty lakes, gardens and palaces. Regardless of who lived in those grand old houses, there would never be common cause or identification with the people they were squeezing.

As it was, it was actually the Anglo-Irish who reinvented modern Irish identity separate to British identity, rebirthed the Gaelic language, and 'Celtic' traditions and indeed Irish nationalism however unwittingly. Plenty of modern Irish republicans would and do happily identify with Anglo-Irish figures.

Mint Aero

to question ones own derived cultural identity is to question ones place in a world within a world. The world which has been forged cannot be undone without the smelting iron from whence it came. The coldness of steel shears the grain to which you bear your arms.

Eamondomc

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes but would we have ended up with a home grow aristocracy, and opposed to the Anglo Irish one and because they would be Irish would we have identified with them more.

We,d have had an Irish revolution and beheaded them all by now anyway.
But if we had a king I reckon it would have been an O Brien!

endacl

fatknacker wrote: »

That's what I said.

Which would be mud circles, I guess was the point?

Kinda like a wooden bridge made out of cake?

Whooooooosh.....?

jimmy blevins

Afters hours may be a lot of thing's but historically accurate it's not.