Sheep Ireland Sale

grassroot1

Are there many of planning on attending? (oh and yes I do have rams entered):D

Cran

grassroot1 wrote: »

Are there many of planning on attending? (oh and yes I do have rams entered):D

Not unless it's raining which is a good chance, what lot no's?

grassroot1

Early in the Charollais

roosky

Are rams much dearer than a normal sale or does the quantity/choice keep prices reasonable

orm0nd

roosky wrote:

Are rams much dearer than a normal sale or does the quantity/choice keep prices reasonable

Usually dear,

we're going as we need 2 different breeds and will have the choice under 1 roof. Not many breeders near me and I couldn't be bothered driving around the country.

Cran

roosky wrote: »

Are rams much dearer than a normal sale or does the quantity/choice keep prices reasonable

Normally dearer, should have brought a few myself as in ovigen, but just to much to do with commercials at the moment and sales going well from the house....

grassroot1

There are 206 lots in the sale, it will be have to affect sale price that's quite a lot of rams to find a home for.

rangler1

grassroot1 wrote: »

There are 206 lots in the sale, it will be have to affect sale price that's quite a lot of rams to find a home for.

You're right, prices only average at best, gloss gone off the stars now that it's not a requirement of STAP, A lot of ram lambs were weak on the back legs too, heels nearly on the ground, typical sign of overfeeding. Was there a presale inspection

orm0nd

rangler1 wrote: »

You're right, prices only average at best, gloss gone off the stars now that it's not a requirement of STAP, A lot of ram lambs were weak on the back legs too, heels nearly on the ground, typical sign of overfeeding. Was there a presale inspection

a bit of a joke really, no breed or owner's name mentioned but all his rams were terrible on the left back, still made some of the higher prices, 1 ram definately should have been on the factory hook for last easter.

had intended buying a vendeen but was only 2 rams that would interest me so decided not to hang around as I was on milking duty

bought a texel and suffolk, gave a bit over the odds for texel but the suffolk came at ok price wise.

t

Jonny303

From a sellers point of view, we were happy. Run very well, inspections done on arrival rather than being dragged out all day. Sheep gotten ready for the ring by Sheep Ireland staff, auctioneer turning them around very quickly.

grassroot1

Not sure about the pre sale inspection a friend brought mine up, only got there about 1.45 and mine were penned. The pre sale inspection needs to be on farm
Some very high prices and some poor in the same pens very hard to figure out.

paddysdream

What sort of prices for rams ?Just a general average really as hard to know what a sheep is worth without seeing it in the flesh and every farmer has a different idea of what he likes in a ram.

Not a big fan of buying at the ring.Much prefer to buy a ram in the sellers yard.Nice to see the selection and much easier to get an impression of the seller.That can be as important as the actual sheep.On the other hand always buy replacement ewes(only once every few years)in the ring.

rangler1

paddysdream wrote: »

What sort of prices for rams ?Just a general average really as hard to know what a sheep is worth without seeing it in the flesh and every farmer has a different idea of what he likes in a ram.

Not a big fan of buying at the ring.Much prefer to buy a ram in the sellers yard.Nice to see the selection and much easier to get an impression of the seller.That can be as important as the actual sheep.On the other hand always buy replacement ewes(only once every few years)in the ring.

I was helping neighbours with buying texels, what i thought was the best texel made €530 also another bought a nice ram for €475 a texel made 600 but his back heels were nearly on the ground, very hard to check feet with all the straw, suffolks were around 600 but i didnt see them all being sold, belclres made up near 1000 for any thing you'd like, A breeder told me you'd get better rams in the regional sales than the cheaper ones there.
vendeens 4-600, two made 350 for good reason, they weren't great.
Charolais started off bad, back a good bit on last year. teagasc usualy rev up the charolais at the elite sale and they hadn't started buying when i was leaving, saw later on social media where they had nine rams

I like to buy on farm too, bought 4 and 5 startexel hoggets from flor ryan this year, didn't see anything today that i liked bettter, so happy out.
Flor is having a sale with a few other breeders next saturday in blesington, 25 shearling texels 25 shearling charolais and 10 chartex

Jonny303

rangler1 wrote: »

I was helping neighbours with buying texels, what i thought was the best texel made €530 also another bought a nice ram for €475 a texel made 600 but his back heels were nearly on the ground, very hard to check feet with all the straw, suffolks were around 600 but i didnt see them all being sold, belclres made up near 1000 for any thing you'd like, A breeder told me you'd get better rams in the regional sales than the cheaper ones there.
vendeens 4-600, two made 350 for good reason, they weren't great.
Charolais started off bad, back a good bit on last year. teagasc usualy rev up the charolais at the elite sale and they hadn't started buying when i was leaving, saw later on social media where they had nine rams

I like to buy on farm too, bought 4 and 5 startexel hoggets from flor ryan this year, didn't see anything today that i liked bettter, so happy out.
Flor is having a sale with a few other breeders next saturday in blesington, 25 shearling texels 25 shearling charolais and 10 chartex

On the belclares, is it usual for them to make this kind of money or are people gearing up for flock expansions?

rangler1

Jonny303 wrote: »

On the belclares, is it usual for them to make this kind of money or are people gearing up for flock expansions?

It was unusual definitely, but there was only 17 and the demand was huge.
but lesser rams seemed to have no interest.
I was very hard to know what was sold, some sellers went to the office only to find they hadn't sold as many as they thought, so obviously the auctioneer drove them over the reserve himself...a lot were sold after the sale,...strange

orm0nd

rangler1 wrote: »

some sellers went to the office only to find they hadn't sold as many as they thought, so obviously the auctioneer drove them over the reserve himself...a lot were sold after the sale,...strange

& I was the underbidder on 1 , left him sitting in full flight,
he didn't try that sh1t on me second time around,

rangler1

orm0nd wrote: »

& I was the underbidder on 1 , left him sitting in full flight,
he didn't try that sh1t on me second time around,

must say it was very hard to read it, the person i was with got to buy a ram after, that was supposed to be sold.....not saying whether it was the fault of the seller or auctioneer but he claimed to have thought more of his were sold.

J.O. Farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

must say it was very hard to read it, the person i was with got to buy a ram after, that was supposed to be sold.....not saying whether it was the fault of the seller or auctioneer but he claimed to have thought more of his were sold.

Would there be some kind of optics going on with sheep ireland wanting to be able to say that a high percentage of rams were sold while omitting the fact that the wall bought a few.

ganmo

orm0nd wrote: »

& I was the underbidder on 1 , left him sitting in full flight,
he didn't try that sh1t on me second time around,

That **** does nobody any good. Taking the decision out of the hand of the seller and abusing the bidder

orm0nd

TBH it wouldn't bother me, I don't sell at marts but if I was I would instruct the auctioneer to get to the reserve, if he lost the highest bidder doing so then no sweat,


BTW as mentioned earlier I thought that chap yesterday was good, in spite of him trying to pick a 30euro bid off me when I was clearly indicating a tenner,

as I said he only tried it once.

J.O. Farmer

orm0nd wrote: »

TBH it wouldn't bother me, I don't sell at marts but if I was I would instruct the auctioneer to get to the reserve, if he lost the highest bidder doing so then no sweat,


BTW as mentioned earlier I thought that chap yesterday was good, in spite of him trying to pick a 30euro bid off me when I was clearly indicating a tenner,

as I said he only tried it once.

It's fine if the seller says I want X. Put him on the market and if you don't get X sell him to the wall but it sounds here like sellers were mistakenly thinking stock were sold when they weren't.
Was there a reserve put on rams as part of the terms of the sale. It's all well and good thinking your stock is worth X but unless you can get it on the sale day or are confident that it was a poor price you were offered on the day maybe you might take what's being offered in the ring and sellers should be given the chance to make that decision one way or the other.

Sheep breeder

rangler1 wrote: »

It was unusual definitely, but there was only 17 and the demand was huge.
but lesser rams seemed to have no interest.
I was very hard to know what was sold, some sellers went to the office only to find they hadn't sold as many as they thought, so obviously the auctioneer drove them over the reserve himself...a lot were sold after the sale,...strange

Tom wrafter was busy buying with auctioneer looking up at Tom all the time.
A sale like that does nobody any good and give a false view.

Sheep Ireland

rangler1 wrote: »

You're right, prices only average at best, gloss gone off the stars now that it's not a requirement of STAP, A lot of ram lambs were weak on the back legs too, heels nearly on the ground, typical sign of overfeeding. Was there a presale inspection

Hi Rangler. Just wanted to comment on a few things being said here in relation to the sale on behalf of Sheep Ireland. In my opinion prices were fine. This is a sale for commercial sheep farmers. We do not want farmers thinking they will be fleeced if they come to this sale. I spoke to most breeders and farmers leaving the sale and I got no negative comment from anyone in relation to prices given or received.

I also cannot agree about the 'gloss' going off the stars. There was an 85% clearance rate in the sale. These are not my figures, they are the official figures from the mart office. In 2015 the clearance was 87%. In 2015, 30% of the ram buyers were involved in STAP. This year there was no STAP driving attendance, but the crowd was the biggest that I've seen it since the sale began in Kilkenny in 2011.

Overfeeding and associated problems is certainly an issue across ram sales. This can hardly be blamed on Sheep Ireland. One example - most breed societies impose a minimum weight criteria for their sales, what kind of message does this send to breeders? We do not set any such criteria for our sale.

Was there a pre-sale inspection? Of course there was. The inspection was carried out on concrete, in a small pen as each breeder unloaded their rams out of the trailer and I think you know this. 8 rams were rejected. Most for feet issues. We have invited breed society representatives to assist in these inspections in the past but the feedback has been that our people do a good job.

Sheep Ireland

grassroot1 wrote: »

Not sure about the pre sale inspection a friend brought mine up, only got there about 1.45 and mine were penned. The pre sale inspection needs to be on farm
Some very high prices and some poor in the same pens very hard to figure out.

All sheep were inspected on arrival. Lot numbers were attached to lambs once our inspectors were happy with the rams. The inspectors are two very respected commercial farmers involved in sheep farming everyday. No affiliation to any breed society etc.

Doing on farm inspections is not feasible. Breeders bring rams from all over the country to the sale - the cost of sending inspectors to each of these flocks would be huge.

Sheep Ireland

rangler1 wrote: »

It was unusual definitely, but there was only 17 and the demand was huge.
but lesser rams seemed to have no interest.
I was very hard to know what was sold, some sellers went to the office only to find they hadn't sold as many as they thought, so obviously the auctioneer drove them over the reserve himself...a lot were sold after the sale,...strange

In relation to the demand for Belclares and 'lesser rams'. This is the nature of any ram sale in the country. On Saturday it just so happened that demand for Belclares was high. If the sale was next Saturday it could be another breed. Regardless of stars, buyers are still willing to pay more for bigger, more powerful looking rams. Sure the smaller rams, made smaller money - these could turn out to be fantastic hoggets next year.

The comment about some sellers going to the office......how many sellers were in this boat? I was in the office for most of the day and this is not what I witnessed. A handful of rams were sold outside the ring. Again this is common to any ram sale up and down the country.

In relation to the reserve. There was no reserve. I am sure individual breeders had their own reserve. One ram sold for €250 so I think it is unfair to bring the auctioneers reputation into question by creating the impression that he was trying to fool buyers. He is a respected auctioneer that did a professional job in my opinion. Many breeders made the same comment to me after the sale.

Sheep Ireland

rangler1 wrote: »

must say it was very hard to read it, the person i was with got to buy a ram after, that was supposed to be sold.....not saying whether it was the fault of the seller or auctioneer but he claimed to have thought more of his were sold.

The issue here was simple. Some Lots were not presented for sale. The mart clerk who was recording prices and buyer details did not notice that the Lot was skipped. He assigned a buyer to the missing Lot number. In the office it seemed like the lot was sold, but the ram never entered the ring. This is what happened - nothing shady or dodgy. I know, because I was the one who clarified the issue in the mart office.

The ram was bought afterwards in the trailer outside the mart and the sale was put through the office. There was no issue with the ram. He was a substitute that we failed to enter into the catalogue - our fault completely. We did not want any subs on the day to minimise confusion among buyers, so we did not allow the ram into the sale. Harsh, I know, but that's what happened.

Sheep Ireland

orm0nd wrote: »

TBH it wouldn't bother me, I don't sell at marts but if I was I would instruct the auctioneer to get to the reserve, if he lost the highest bidder doing so then no sweat,


BTW as mentioned earlier I thought that chap yesterday was good, in spite of him trying to pick a 30euro bid off me when I was clearly indicating a tenner,

as I said he only tried it once.

Trying to take a €30 bid from you instead of a €10 is a bit cheeky, but it is a far lesser offence than falsely picking bids from nowhere. Like I said one ram sold for €250 and many sold for small money - these are the facts.

rangler1

Sheep Ireland wrote: »

Hi Rangler. Just wanted to comment on a few things being said here in relation to the sale on behalf of Sheep Ireland. In my opinion prices were fine. This is a sale for commercial sheep farmers. We do not want farmers thinking they will be fleeced if they come to this sale. I spoke to most breeders and farmers leaving the sale and I got no negative comment from anyone in relation to prices given or received.

I also cannot agree about the 'gloss' going off the stars. There was an 85% clearance rate in the sale. These are not my figures, they are the official figures from the mart office. In 2015 the clearance was 87%. In 2015, 30% of the ram buyers were involved in STAP. This year there was no STAP driving attendance, but the crowd was the biggest that I've seen it since the sale began in Kilkenny in 2011.

Overfeeding and associated problems is certainly an issue across ram sales. This can hardly be blamed on Sheep Ireland. One example - most breed societies impose a minimum weight criteria for their sales, what kind of message does this send to breeders? We do not set any such criteria for our sale.

Was there a pre-sale inspection? Of course there was. The inspection was carried out on concrete, in a small pen as each breeder unloaded their rams out of the trailer and I think you know this. 8 rams were rejected. Most for feet issues. We have invited breed society representatives to assist in these inspections in the past but the feedback has been that our people do a good job.

You didn't put up the average prices of the dfferent breeds and comparisons,
AnywayI was there on the day to help two buyers, maybe we were just unfortunate but it took a while to find a ram that was correct out of numbers they were picking. once i cleared the straw they went off looking again, one of them threw up a ram last year( or was it two years ago, can't remember) for that very reason....... he wasn't going to be caught again

Jonny303

Any average prices coming through for overall/any of the breeds?

The only slightly negative feedback i would have, and it is actually wrong to call it negative is that its a long day. We left after we sold (suffolks). Usually I would like to meet the buyers etc, but with another 100 potential lots, I wasn't hanging around, having been there from 9.

If I found out next year that I was down around the 200's, I probably might think twice about going but look, there is not much you can do about this! The draw of big numbers draws bigger numbers, its a catch 22 I know!

Again, I thought it wen't off well. Well done!

Sheep Ireland

rangler1 wrote: »

You didn't put up the average prices of the dfferent breeds and comparisons,
AnywayI was there on the day to help two buyers, maybe we were just unfortunate but it took a while to find a ram that was correct out of numbers they were picking. once i cleared the straw they went off looking again, one of them threw up a ram last year( or was it two years ago, can't remember) for that very reason....... he wasn't going to be caught again

Didn't get a chance to complete the full sale report today but it'll be on the website tomorrow. I'll post a link here when it is.

We have asked to use saw dust in the mart in the past and I've been told that it causes massive issues for them when trying to clean it up - it blocks up their drainage system when washing down the floor. I am not a fan of straw either - we'll try and eliminate it somehow next year.

I'm sorry to hear that buyer had a bad experience, one issue is too many. While there is straw in the pens, there is no hiding in the ring. Should these rams be caught in the inspection? Ideally yes. Was there a few 50:50 calls? Yes. In these incidences, both inspectors consulted and at least one or two other Sheep Ireland people were consulted and a decision was made.

Sheep Ireland

Jonny303 wrote: »

Any average prices coming through for overall/any of the breeds?

The only slightly negative feedback i would have, and it is actually wrong to call it negative is that its a long day. We left after we sold (suffolks). Usually I would like to meet the buyers etc, but with another 100 potential lots, I wasn't hanging around, having been there from 9.

If I found out next year that I was down around the 200's, I probably might think twice about going but look, there is not much you can do about this! The draw of big numbers draws bigger numbers, its a catch 22 I know!

Again, I thought it wen't off well. Well done!

If we have more entries next year, we'll go with 2 rings I think. However, this will disperse the crowd and kill some of the atmosphere around the ring, but I agree that the sale is a bit too long. Obviously if people want two ram breeds, this may cause an issue, but most people came to the sale with someone else so I think its unlikely they would miss out on a purchase. They can cover a ring each.

Sheep breeder

Fair play sheep Ireland for clarifying about the sale and how it was conducted, see to many ram sale were false bidding takes place and is no good to any breed.
From watching from the sideline sheep Ireland is improving slowly from day one when a couple of people from different societies were trying to take over for their own gain and the money and these people still have an axe to grind with sheep Ireland all the time.

rangler1

Sheep Ireland wrote: »

In relation to the demand for Belclares and 'lesser rams'. This is the nature of any ram sale in the country. On Saturday it just so happened that demand for Belclares was high. If the sale was next Saturday it could be another breed. Regardless of stars, buyers are still willing to pay more for bigger, more powerful looking rams. Sure the smaller rams, made smaller money - these could turn out to be fantastic hoggets next year.

The comment about some sellers going to the office......how many sellers were in this boat? I was in the office for most of the day and this is not what I witnessed. A handful of rams were sold outside the ring. Again this is common to any ram sale up and down the country.

In relation to the reserve. There was no reserve. I am sure individual breeders had their own reserve. One ram sold for €250 so I think it is unfair to bring the auctioneers reputation into question by creating the impression that he was trying to fool buyers. He is a respected auctioneer that did a professional job in my opinion. Many breeders made the same comment to me after the sale.

You know which sellers sold outside the ring, ask them was there a problem, because some claimed to be confused.

orm0nd

orm0nd wrote: »

TBH it wouldn't bother me, I don't sell at marts but if I was I would instruct the auctioneer to get to the reserve, if he lost the highest bidder doing so then no sweat,


BTW as mentioned earlier I thought that chap yesterday was good, in spite of him trying to pick a 30euro bid off me when I was clearly indicating a tenner,

as I said he only tried it once.

Sheep Ireland wrote: »

Trying to take a €30 bid from you instead of a €10 is a bit cheeky, but it is a far lesser offence than falsely picking bids from nowhere. Like I said one ram sold for €250 and many sold for small money - these are the facts.

welcome on board and thanks for posting, as I had posted previous I had no issues what so ever with the auctioneer, both of us had (different) tasks on hand

However I still agree with rangler about the inspections
1 breeder had x number of rams there that should never have a ped cert. 1 ram in particular that made big money will definately last no longer than 1 or 2 seasons

how the inspector missed these? judging in a 4x4 pen is not on

also why still the straw in the pens?
I raised this issue with sheep ireland 2 years ago & they agreed to look in to it

also I noticed that some vendors were not too happy with people entering the pens

overall it was a very well organized event with the staff very helpful, but I would prefer to see must better pre sale inspection, not for my benefit but for the good of the sheep industry as whole

I'm on the road a long time & will not be fooled by a rogue seller, (or a fast speaking auctioneer )

rangler1

orm0nd wrote: »

welcome on board and thanks for posting, as I had posted previous I had no issues what so ever with the auctioneer, both of us had (different) tasks on hand

However I still agree with rangler about the inspections
1 breeder had x number of rams there that should never have a ped cert. 1 ram in particular that made big money will definately last no longer than 1 or 2 seasons

how the inspector missed these? judging in a 4x4 pen is not on

also why still the straw in the pens?
I raised this issue with sheep ireland 2 years ago & they agreed to look in to it

also I noticed that some vendors were not too happy with people entering the pens

overall it was a very well organized event with the staff very helpful, but I would prefer to see must better pre sale inspection, not for my benefit but for the good of the sheep industry as whole

I'm on the road a long time & will not be fooled by a rogue seller, (or a fast speaking auctioneer )

Weak on the pasterns as a lamb is a poor outlook for when he gets older and heavy

rangler1

Don't think a pedigree cert is required for that elite sale, just has to be in lambplus

Sheep Ireland

orm0nd wrote: »

welcome on board and thanks for posting, as I had posted previous I had no issues what so ever with the auctioneer, both of us had (different) tasks on hand

However I still agree with rangler about the inspections
1 breeder had x number of rams there that should never have a ped cert. 1 ram in particular that made big money will definately last no longer than 1 or 2 seasons

how the inspector missed these? judging in a 4x4 pen is not on

also why still the straw in the pens?
I raised this issue with sheep ireland 2 years ago & they agreed to look in to it

also I noticed that some vendors were not too happy with people entering the pens

overall it was a very well organized event with the staff very helpful, but I would prefer to see must better pre sale inspection, not for my benefit but for the good of the sheep industry as whole

I'm on the road a long time & will not be fooled by a rogue seller, (or a fast speaking auctioneer )

On the inspections - fair enough. In future any 50:50 call will be a rejection. Our number one focus is the commercial sheep farmer and giving all buyers the best chance of going home with a good ram - physically and genetics. In saying this we were trying our best to be fair to all breeders involved too - the vast,vast majority of whom are genuine ram breeders who have been in the game for many years for good reason.

On the straw - its on the insistence of the mart. We'll organise something else for next year.

Why breeders had an issue with people entering their pens is beyond me? I would have thought all vendors would encourage buyers into the pen. We certainly encourage all farmers to check the ram before purchase - regardless of €uroStar rating.

Cran

Sheep Ireland wrote: »

On the inspections - fair enough. In future any 50:50 call will be a rejection. Our number one focus is the commercial sheep farmer and giving all buyers the best chance of going home with a good ram - physically and genetics. In saying this we were trying our best to be fair to all breeders involved too - the vast,vast majority of whom are genuine ram breeders who have been in the game for many years for good reason.

On the straw - its on the insistence of the mart. We'll organise something else for next year.

Why breeders had an issue with people entering their pens is beyond me? I would have thought all vendors would encourage buyers into the pen. We certainly encourage all farmers to check the ram before purchase - regardless of €uroStar rating.

Fair play great to see such direct responses. Have great time for star system if given time and people learn how to read accuracies and DQI etc

As for being in the pens I wouldn't dream of buying a ram without running out into passage from the pen, and don't think any breeder would. If they do have issue walk out and don't look back....

rangler1

Cran wrote: »

Fair play great to see such direct responses. Have great time for star system if given time and people learn how to read accuracies and DQI etc

As for being in the pens I wouldn't dream of buying a ram without running out into passage from the pen, and don't think any breeder would. If they do have issue walk out and don't look back....

Not great either, a good ram could be dragged out a dozen or more times by prospective buyers, better to allow 30 mins after hammer drops

grassroot1

Sheep Ireland wrote: »

All sheep were inspected on arrival. Lot numbers were attached to lambs once our inspectors were happy with the rams. The inspectors are two very respected commercial farmers involved in sheep farming everyday. No affiliation to any breed society etc.

Doing on farm inspections is not feasible. Breeders bring rams from all over the country to the sale - the cost of sending inspectors to each of these flocks would be huge.

Well not really if a ram is wrong in the mouth at scanning he will still be wrong at sale time.
The point I am making is as an elite sale standards must be kept high, to expect 2 people to vet 215 sheep in the time allowed is unfair.
There were sheep at the sale that should have been in the cull ring.
I am not complaining I did well last year maybe not so good this year but I would hate to miss it, I proud to have sheep good enough to attend.

orm0nd

Sheep Ireland wrote: »

On the inspections - fair enough. In future any 50:50 call will be a rejection. Our number one focus is the commercial sheep farmer and giving all buyers the best chance of going home with a good ram - physically and genetics. In saying this we were trying our best to be fair to all breeders involved too - the vast,vast majority of whom are genuine ram breeders who have been in the game for many years for good reason.

FFS cut out the bullsh1t how could 1 breeder who's every single ram was wrong be 50/50 & allowed into the sale

1 particular ram was a disgrace

I wouldnt keep similar ewes for commercial breeding

rangler1

orm0nd wrote: »

FFS cut out the bullsh1t how could 1 breeder who's every single ram was wrong be 50/50 & allowed into the sale

1 particular ram was a disgrace

I wouldnt keep similar ewes for commercial breeding

It was only last week i was warning posters to watch out for weak pasterns, it is getting more prevalent, I'm surprised at the buyers that gave good money for the rams affected

Sheep Ireland

orm0nd wrote: »

FFS cut out the bullsh1t how could 1 breeder who's every single ram was wrong be 50/50 & allowed into the sale

1 particular ram was a disgrace

I wouldnt keep similar ewes for commercial breeding

I'm not trying to spoof anyone. I'm just telling ye what happened on the day. I'll take the point on the inspections. Next year, there will be alot more rejections. I hope your point above isn't insinuating that we treated one breeder differently than another, because this does not happen. Regardless of who the breeder is, regardless of their position within Sheep Ireland or elsewhere - they get treated with the same rules.

Sheep Ireland

grassroot1 wrote: »

Well not really if a ram is wrong in the mouth at scanning he will still be wrong at sale time.
The point I am making is as an elite sale standards must be kept high, to expect 2 people to vet 215 sheep in the time allowed is unfair.
There were sheep at the sale that should have been in the cull ring.
I am not complaining I did well last year maybe not so good this year but I would hate to miss it, I proud to have sheep good enough to attend.

We have scanned close to 7,000 lambs so far this year. It just won't be practical to carry out a sale level inspection accurately on all of these lambs. The entry point of the sale is still the best place in my opinion. We had two inspection points going and there was never that much pressure on the guys. We will be more ruthless next year.

rangler1

Sheep Ireland wrote: »

I'm not trying to spoof anyone. I'm just telling ye what happened on the day. I'll take the point on the inspections. Next year, there will be alot more rejections. I hope your point above isn't insinuating that we treated one breeder differently than another, because this does not happen. Regardless of who the breeder is, regardless of their position within Sheep Ireland or elsewhere - they get treated with the same rules.

TBF I know the two inspectors and there'd be nothing crooked going on and mistakes had to be genuine. Theres no way that there was favouritism
To err is human etc etc

MayoAreMagic

I will say fair play to Sheep Ireland for coming on and engaging with people and their queries. It shows a genuine desire to take people's opinions on board and improve.
Fair enough, they accept that in future they could be more strict with close calls and that is a good thing, the tougher they are the better the product, but look with that many animals, inevitably some things are going to get through. People shouldn't view their involvement as a guarantee of a perfect animal either.

Green farmer

grassroot1 wrote: »

Well not really if a ram is wrong in the mouth at scanning he will still be wrong at sale time.

As previously mentioned I got badly stung at a regional society sale 2 years ago with a hog mouthed ram with 5 stars. Haven't bought a star rated ram since. Maybe I should have gone to a sheep Ireland sale instead, if I had reassurance Rams like that wouldn't get through. Also Would it be feasible for Rams to be inspected before stars awarded ? Llyen breeders bring their Rams to one designated location once a year and society guys fly over from the uk to inspect before they get their pedigree cert ? From my little understanding, stars are awarded on the figures breeders input into a spreadsheet ?

Edit
I'd also like to mention that I'm bord bia approved, but I cannt use this approval to get extra money for my lambs unless they inspect me regularly. Do breeders that use the star to sell their Rams have any inspections of their stock ? Maybe they do , I just don't know the answer ?

Sheep Ireland

Green farmer wrote: »

As previously mentioned I got badly stung at a regional society sale 2 years ago with a hog mouthed ram with 5 stars. Haven't bought a star rated ram since. Maybe I should have gone to a sheep Ireland sale instead, if I had reassurance Rams like that wouldn't get through. Also Would it be feasible for Rams to be inspected before stars awarded ? Llyen breeders bring their Rams to one designated location once a year and society guys fly over from the uk to inspect before they get their pedigree cert ? From my little understanding, stars are awarded on the figures breeders input into a spreadsheet ?

Edit
I'd also like to mention that I'm bord bia approved, but I cannt use this approval to get extra money for my lambs unless they inspect me regularly. Do breeders that use the star to sell their Rams have any inspections of their stock ? Maybe they do , I just don't know the answer ?

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience Green Farmer. The €uroStars are not necessarily allocated to a ram based on his individual performance or appearance. The €uroStars are allocated based on the performance of the bloodline. The more data that Sheep Ireland have for a bloodline the better chance we have to give accurate €uroStar evaluations. Unfortunately if we have a small amount of data for a bloodline, the €uroStars are less reliable. The situation is improving year on year as we get more data across all breeds and bloodlines, but it will take time.

Sources of data include breeders themselves and independent Sheep Ireland commercial flocks. The €uroStars of your flock is affected by how related animals perform in other flocks. As a result, the more flocks involved, the better for everyone.

For most breeds, animal inspections take place at the entry to society sales. Outside of sales it up to the breeder themselves to decide on an animals suitability for breeding. Its in any breeders long term interest to ensure the rams they are selling are physically correct.

Sheep Ireland

Sheep Ireland sale report is now available from our homepage sheep.ie.

rangler1

Every time breeders have to follow a new fad something suffers, 15 yrs ago it was scrapie genotyping and not a word about it now, there's no doubt there was good lines lost then because they were the wrong genotype...''Th'ould ram isn't great but sure he's a class 1 genotype''
Conformation suffered to genotype, I'm wondering is the pasterns the casualty in the stars race, are breeders blinded to faults by five stars.
Alraedy been said here that some rams in the sale wouldn't be kept but for their 5 stars.
We sold three 5 star ram lambs to teagasc for a trial, their progeny out performed the other 5star ram breeds, 12 mths after selling those rams, their star rating was two and three star and they would've been high accuracy....follow that

Sheep Ireland

rangler1 wrote: »

Every time breeders have to follow a new fad something suffers, 15 yrs ago it was scrapie genotyping and not a word about it now, there's no doubt there was good lines lost then because they were the wrong genotype...''Th'ould ram isn't great but sure he's a class 1 genotype''
Conformation suffered to genotype, I'm wondering is the pasterns the casualty in the stars race, are breeders blinded to faults by five stars.
Alraedy been said here that some rams in the sale wouldn't be kept but for their 5 stars.
We sold three 5 star ram lambs to teagasc for a trial, their progeny out performed the other 5star ram breeds, 12 mths after selling those rams, their star rating was two and three star and they would've been high accuracy....follow that

What is a 'good line'. For Sheep Ireland a good line is a profitable one for commercial sheep farmers. We can only use the data we have available to us to produce the €uroStars. For some breeds this level of data is pretty small, I wish this wasn't the case, but that's the reality. You are insinuating that bad pasterns in rams is due to the €uroStars. I think bad pasterns have been around long before Sheep Ireland - Our advice to breeders and farmers is to choose a ram by his physical appearance FIRST - then look at the stars.

The Teagasc trial that you refer to involved three breeds - Vendeen, Ile de France and Charollais used to mate just over 300 ewe lambs. The Vendeen progeny averaged 31.5kg at weaning, Charollais 30.5kg & Ile de France 29.4kg. There were 3 rams per breed used. This trial was run in a single flock. The results were interesting, but I would not say it discredited the use of €uroStarred rams.

Its a pity the rams index dropped, but this can happen unfortunately. It all depends on the data available to us. The key is that when we look at the average performance of 5 Star sheep Vs 1 Star sheep, the 5 Star sheep are performing better across all the key profit traits.