Is teacher training still sectarian?

expectationlost

Religion, nursing and teacher training - what's the connection?


http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0822/811138-nursing-teacher-training/ by Emma O'Kelly writes about the entry process for teacher and nurse training

three large Protestant and Catholic teacher training colleges merge in DCU* but the entry process is still based on religion...

However, in order to protect those religious ethos', DCU is maintaining two separate entry routes, with separate CAO codes.
The pathway for Protestant applicants is through CAO code DC004. They need 435 points. This is a "Restricted Entry" route, reserved for Protestants. All applicants must "attend and pass a qualifying interview".
All other Primary Teaching applicants applied this year using a different CAO code; DC002. This is the former Catholic St Patrick's College route. There was no interview, but these applicants needed a higher score - 465 points.
There is another difference too. Applicants through the main DC002 route have to have Honours Leaving Certificate Irish. But Protestant applicants using the DR004 route do not.

https://www101.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=BEDC Restricted entry pathway for Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian, Society of Friends, Baptist and other reformed Christian applicants (formerly CICE BEd).
https://www101.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=BEd&degree_description=BachelorofEducation doesn't mention Catholicism just religious modules

this could be seen as a place quota for a minority (Protestant) which may be ok but why is it only split into Protestant and not-protestant (defacto Catholic)? you still be expected to teach faith in order to guarantee employability.


a UCD historian writes about what might be called Protestant protectionism https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29K0mnGK_voVEcycWtMaFpQRHM/view?usp=sharing

*A new vision of education for all the children of Ireland Incorporation of St Patrick’s College Drumcondra, Mater Dei Institute of Education & Church of Ireland College of Education into Dublin City University
http://cice.ie/a_new_vision-for_education.pdf

in order to ensure that the
distinctive identity and values
of teacher education in both
the Roman Catholic and Church
of Ireland/Reformed Christian
traditions are maintained on an
ongoing basis, two Centres for
Denominational Education shall be
established within the Institute (a
Centre for Catholic Education and a
Church of Ireland Centre).

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

a UCD historian writes about what might be called Protestant protectionism https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29K0mnGK_voVEcycWtMaFpQRHM/view?usp=sharing

That a good article, well worth reading.

I suppose the answer to the question is Yes. As long as certain religious groups are bestowed with the power to allocate well paid jobs on the state payroll then we can hardly expect anything other than jobs for the boys (and girls).
And the training programs will reflect that.

Bristolscale7

Today I learned: protestants have a hard time learning Irish.

expectationlost

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Today I learned: protestants have a hard time learning Irish.

Caro ‏@CarolineH15 12h12 hours ago @rtenews @emma_okelly They ONLY accept people with ordinary if there aren't enough with honours, to my knowledge that has NEVER happened.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%40emma_okelly&partner=Firefox&source=desktop-search

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

this could be seen as a place quota for a minority (Protestant) which may be ok but why is it only split into Protestant and not-protestant (defacto Catholic)?

Nitpick: It's not split into Protestant and non-Protestant: It's split into Protestant and open-to-all.

From memory, something similar happened about twenty years ago when the Meath, Aledaide and National Children's Hospitals were all merged into Tallaght Hospital. The Meath and the Adelaide each had their own nursing schools - I'm not sure about the NCH - and these two institutions still exist, although their students all receive the same clinical education in Tallaght Hospital and the same academic accreditation from TCD. In selecting from among applicants, the Adelaide School of Nursing "has regard to its particular obligation to applicants from the Protestant community and other minorities". Application is through the CAO, and places are awarded by the CAO based on points. I think the way this works is that applications are vetted by the Adelaide School of Nursing, and the CAO will only award a place to an applicant who is confirmed by the School as qualified. Among the qualified applicants, places are assigned to those with the highest points.

The places that are allotted by the Meath School of Nursing are not similarly vetted; they are open to all.

In 2014, the points requirement for the Adelaide course was 295; for the Meath course, 415.

For both teaching and nursing, there are a variety of restricted courses availaable, and not all of the restrictions are religion-based. For example, there are numerous Mature Applicants courses for nursing, and there are Gaeltacht Applicants courses for primary teaching. So this particular mechanism for reverse discrimination/affirmative action/diversity promotion is a well-established one.

Bristolscale7

What is the rationale for giving protestants an out on Irish (even if it's only on paper)? Something along the lines of Karl Marx, " The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living"?

sbsquarepants

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Today I learned: protestants have a hard time learning Irish.

Today I learned: Apparently I'm a protestant.......great, as if I hadn't enough problems already:mad:

recedite

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

What is the rationale for giving protestants an out on Irish (even if it's only on paper)? Something along the lines of Karl Marx, " The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living"?

Well, its protestants giving themselves a break when it comes to honours Irish. Not somebody else giving it to them. Its an interesting question, but they are a sort of reverse Gaeltacht. In general, they were never in favour of mandatory Irish in schools; it was imposed on them by the state. They have less of a tradition within the population of being fluent. The standard of Irish is often lower in CoI schools than in RC schools where Irish language and Catholicism have been enthusiastically promoted. Protestant parents are usually less enthusiastic about the language. A significant % of CoI kids have a derogation from learning Irish due to being "dyslexic" but the same kids seem to be able to go on to learn French or Spanish . The question has to be asked, if your ancestors have lived here for hundreds of years, but none have ever spoken Irish fluently, why would you consider it to be your native language?
Also, their teachers are usually less capable at Irish themselves, because they have been educated within the same segregated system themselves.

So you could just as easily ask, what is the rationale for giving Gaelgeoirs bonus points for doing subjects through Irish? If its a form of "positive discrimination" for those whose culture is to be fluent in Irish, then imposing an honours Irish requirement would be a form of "negative discrimination" for those whose culture is to speak English. You can hardly expect this sub-culture to be enthusiastic about imposing negative discrimination on itself.

expectationlost

Looney to head DCU education faculty http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0824/811541-dcu/

graduate of Mater Dei, where she trained as a religion teacher

she is one of them

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

Looney to head DCU education faculty http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0824/811541-dcu/

Wouldn't be the first time an Irish university faculty was headed by a religious looney :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

In general, they were never in favour of mandatory Irish in schools; it was imposed on them by the state.

Many others weren't either; and aren't.

The standard of Irish is often lower in CoI schools than in RC schools where Irish language and Catholicism have been enthusiastically promoted.

We often hear complaints that the standard of and enthusiasm for Irish is low across the board. LC results show many capable students who do the bare minimum in Irish, if that. That's what I did and it makes perfect sense when you have a subject to discard for points purposes and no interest in it. If there's a case for linking this to CoI schools specifically then let's see it. The issue is much broader than that.

Protestant parents are usually less enthusiastic about the language. A significant % of CoI kids have a derogation from learning Irish due to being "dyslexic" but the same kids seem to be able to go on to learn French or Spanish . The question has to be asked, if your ancestors have lived here for hundreds of years, but none have ever spoken Irish fluently, why would you consider it to be your native language?

Was never a protestant, have never considered Irish my native language.
The minority of parents enthusiastic about it will surely be looking for gaelscoil places? of course, not all will get them.
Most of the rest don't care about Irish or would rather it be done away with at school.

Also, their teachers are usually less capable at Irish themselves, because they have been educated within the same segregated system themselves.

Again this appears to be a complaint of the Irish lobby across the board in English medium schools. And those guys never ever exaggerate

You can hardly expect this sub-culture to be enthusiastic about imposing negative discrimination on itself.

It appears to be down to demand. The catholic non-protestant places will easily be filled despite the higher Irish requirement. The former CICE didn't appear to be so certain. They were prepared to compromise on Irish to ensure they didn't have to on religion.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It appears to be down to demand. The catholic non-protestant places will easily be filled despite the higher Irish requirement. The former CICE didn't appear to be so certain. They were prepared to compromise on Irish to ensure they didn't have to on religion.

Yes, I agree totally. I'm just saying they have been given a hand of cards by the state, and they are playing that hand as well as it can be played for their own advantage. Its to be expected.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nitpick: It's not split into Protestant and non-Protestant: It's split into Protestant and open-to-all.

Getting back to that point, which has remained unchallenged thus far. In the article it says....

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0822/811138-nursing-teacher-training/ by Emma O'Kelly

This year sees the full incorporation into DCU of three former colleges of education - the Catholic St Patrick's and Mater Dei colleges, and the Church of Ireland College of Education (CICE).

I'm seeing two catholic institutions and one protestant institution sharing facilities to save money. A very laudable move, but not exactly a secular move. The other two are "open to all" in a missionary sense. "All" are welcome to come and learn how to teach in a true catholic way, by incorporating the one true religion so that it "permeates" the school day. Yes, I believe "permeates" is the word they like to use.

Bristolscale7

So the Catholic Gaelgeoirs use Irish so that all their kids can get jobs for life as primary teachers in Catholic schools, and the protestants use "positive discrimination" so their kids can get jobs in Protestant schools. Such tribalism for a modern democracy.

vector

So, now all students from three colleges will get "DCU degrees"....
but does this also mean that the COI premises is no longer being used? are students going to be attending DCU physically?

Hoagy

vector wrote: »

So, now all students from three colleges will get "DCU degrees"....
but does this also mean that the COI premises is no longer being used? are students going to be attending DCU physically?

Yes the college in Rathmines has closed.

Peregrinus

vector wrote: »

So, now all students from three colleges will get "DCU degrees"....
but does this also mean that the COI premises is no longer being used? are students going to be attending DCU physically?

The DCU Institute of Education (which includes CICE) operates in the buildings that formerly housed St. Pat's, Drumcondra. It's a campus of DCU now, but it's not part of the main campus in Glasnevin.

I don't know what the plans are for the future use of the Rathmines property.

recedite

Perhaps they will donate it to the state for the purposes of social housing.
Or perhaps not, $$$

Peregrinus

Given that they'er a charitable trust, they're not free to deal with it as they wish. They have to apply their property to the purposes of the trust.

If you think it should be made available for the purposes of social housing, perhaps you and a few like-minded friends could buy it from them, and then donate it for that purpose? The charity could then apply the sale proceeds to their charitable purposes.

recedite

Hmmm, well I'm guessing the property is beneficially owned by the RCB which is the financial arm of the CoI and controls a considerable investment portfolio. Its a sort of charity I suppose, in the sense that "all charity begins at home" .... by helping yourself.

recedite

Just noticed in the link that the RCB is actually based in an office which is inside the campus in question. This must be one of the most under-utilised properties in Rathmines, or even in south Dublin, at the moment.

Pherekydes

Anyway, has anyone worked out the pathway for teachers of no religion or the points required by atheists?

recedite

It appears to be similar to getting a place on a school bus; atheists default to being catholics. If they don't like that, they can feck off.

Peregrinus

Pherekydes wrote: »

Anyway, has anyone worked out the pathway for teachers of no religion or the points required by atheists?

There are 69 different courses offering qualifications in education for which you can apply through the CAO. 68 of them are open to applicants of all religions and none. Each has its own points requirement but none offers a special points requirement for atheists.

it may or may not be obectionable that there's a pathway open only to Protestants. But if the objection is sustained by a suggestion that this means there are no pathways open to atheists, it's not going to be taken very seriously.

recedite wrote: »

It appears to be similar to getting a place on a school bus; atheists default to being catholics. If they don't like that, they can feck off.

The only person asserting that atheists default to Catholics, Rec, is you.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

The only person asserting that atheists default to Catholics, Rec, is you.

The default "religious studies" module at DCU appears to be this one, which they say is virtually the same for part-time and full-time students. It is a module to teach prospective teachers the fine art of RCC indoctrination.

The protestants have their own separate stream with an opt-out, substituting their own version. What mechanism is there for all the others opt out of this, while still getting a degree, and still being qualified to teach in all state funded Irish schools? As you say, the RC controlled version of the course is "open to all". All who will obey, that is.

CptMackey

recedite wrote: »

The default "religious studies" module at DCU appears to be this one, which they say is virtually the same for part-time and full-time students. It is a module to teach prospective teachers the fine art of RCC indoctrination.

The protestants have their own separate stream with an opt-out, substituting their own version. What mechanism is there for all the others opt out of this, while still getting a degree, and still being qualified to teach in all state funded Irish schools? As you say, the RC controlled version of the course is "open to all". All who will obey, that is.

It boggles my mind that in this day and age if you want to be a teacher in a national school etc and be paid by the state that you have to promote religion and submit to religious whims to do so.

What this country needs is complete separation of church and state.

expectationlost

* Emma O Kelly adds: Since I wrote the above some people have asked "Is this legal? Surely legislation doesn't allow for such discrimination in admission to a university course?"

The Employment Equality Act does outlaw discrimination against applicants to courses on the basis of religion and other grounds. However that legislation also allows the Minister for Education to override this prohibition, in the case of schools and hospitals, by issuing a special order.

In 2013, the then Minister for Education Ruairi Quinn signed an order allowing the CICE to reserve 32 places for Protestant applicants. It looks like that derogation has now transferred with the CICE course to DCU.

The minister's order runs out in 2018.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0822/811138-nursing-teacher-training/

Employment equality act 1998 (section 12) (Church of Ireland College of Education) order 2013 (2013.)
http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/desdoclaid300713_152750.pdf

Employment Equality Act, 1998 s 12 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/21/section/12/enacted/en/html

committee debate on the motion https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2013-06-19a.8

looksee

CptMackey wrote: »

It boggles my mind that in this day and age if you want to be a teacher in a national school etc and be paid by the state that you have to promote religion and submit to religious whims to do so.

What this country needs is complete separation of church and state.

You could be right, stick around and argue for it!







you are new in here I think?

cazzer22

recedite wrote: »

Well, its protestants giving themselves a break when it comes to honours Irish. Not somebody else giving it to them. Its an interesting question, but they are a sort of reverse Gaeltacht. In general, they were never in favour of mandatory Irish in schools; it was imposed on them by the state. They have less of a tradition within the population of being fluent. The standard of Irish is often lower in CoI schools than in RC schools where Irish language and Catholicism have been enthusiastically promoted. Protestant parents are usually less enthusiastic about the language. A significant % of CoI kids have a derogation from learning Irish due to being "dyslexic" but the same kids seem to be able to go on to learn French or Spanish . The question has to be asked, if your ancestors have lived here for hundreds of years, but none have ever spoken Irish fluently, why would you consider it to be your native language?
Also, their teachers are usually less capable at Irish themselves, because they have been educated within the same segregated system themselves.

So you could just as easily ask, what is the rationale for giving Gaelgeoirs bonus points for doing subjects through Irish? If its a form of "positive discrimination" for those whose culture is to be fluent in Irish, then imposing an honours Irish requirement would be a form of "negative discrimination" for those whose culture is to speak English. You can hardly expect this sub-culture to be enthusiastic about imposing negative discrimination on itself.

I have know idea what you think you're talking about. Who are you to say that the standard of Irish is' often' lower in COI schools than RC schools? Have you personally gone in and inspected each one and compared with each RC school?
Didn't think so.
How do you know if COI parents are less enthusiastic about the language? What are you basing these statements on?

cazzer22

Peregrinus wrote: »

The DCU Institute of Education (which includes CICE) operates in the buildings that formerly housed St. Pat's, Drumcondra. It's a campus of DCU now, but it's not part of the main campus in Glasnevin.

I don't know what the plans are for the future use of the Rathmines property.

Alexandra college is using it for a boarding house I think.

cazzer22

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Today I learned: protestants have a hard time learning Irish.

Wow. What a well- educated comment.

looksee

cazzer22 wrote: »

Wow. What a well- educated comment.

Wow. Just think about it a little bit more...

Hotblack Desiato

It's in situations like this that I wish the ECHR had a police force and could initiate its own cases. There's a lot of crap that goes on in this country which wouldn't last five minutes if it ever came before the ECHR.

Instead the government gets a telling off every few years at the UN and does nothing about it.

cazzer22

looksee wrote: »

Wow. Just think about it a little bit more...

It's a complete throwaway comment with no fact behind it.

recedite

cazzer22 wrote: »

Alexandra college is using it for a boarding house I think.

Students these days... its all brand new kitchenettes and en suite bathrooms now. Dormitories and bedsits are hardships consigned to the 20th century

Hoagy

recedite wrote: »

Students these days... its all brand new kitchenettes and en suite bathrooms now. Dormitories and bedsits are hardships consigned to the 20th century

I think it is only a temporary arrangement for Alexandra College boarders while their own accommodation gets a revamp.
Private rooms and ensuites, as you say.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

The default "religious studies" module at DCU appears to be this one, which they say is virtually the same for part-time and full-time students. It is a module to teach prospective teachers the fine art of RCC indoctrination.

The protestants have their own separate stream with an opt-out, substituting their own version. What mechanism is there for all the others opt out of this, while still getting a degree, and still being qualified to teach in all state funded Irish schools? As you say, the RC controlled version of the course is "open to all". All who will obey, that is.

I think you're confusing (deliberately?) the issues of (a) whether a particular course is open to atheists, with (b) whether atheists are vewy special pwincesses who don't want to study material that doesn't interest them, but are still entitled to be guaranteed a job.

The starting point here is one that you explicitly acknowledge; most of the entrants to these courses, theist or atheist, do want to get a job at the end, teaching in a state-funded Irish school. Given the patronage of those schools, they all include religious education in the curriculum. Therefore, if you want to work in them, you need to be equipped to handle that part of the curriculum. Therefore, the teacher training course provides this this. Even the atheist applicants, if they are rational and self-interested, want it. Even the entirely secular, private-sector colleges offer it.

I think your beef is with the patronage pattern of Irish schools. But, given that pattern, colleges responding to student demand for employable qualifications are acting predictably and rationally in including the religious education element of the course.

Your beef with the patronage pattern may be a legitimate one (although I have to say that I think the pattern of school types provided should be driven by the desires of parents, not the desires of teachers or student teachers). But I think it's a quite different point from the fact that the (former) CICE course is only open to Protestants, regardless of an applicants willingness to engage with the religious education element of the course.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

..most of the entrants to these courses, theist or atheist, do want to get a job at the end, teaching in a state-funded Irish school. Given the patronage of those schools, they all include religious education in the curriculum. Therefore, if you want to work in them, you need to be equipped to handle that part of the curriculum.

That is a fair point, but the religious indoctrination modules of both the CoI and the RCC should be offered outside of the DCU course, and run directly by the religions concerned. It would then be up to the students to select one or both of these indoctrination modules, if they thought it would broaden their employment choice.
Equally they could opt for neither, if their intention was only to teach in an ET school.
The state university should instead offer a common "religion beliefs and ethics" course synchronised with the new national curriculum.
Only one course is needed, with one intake stream and all classes in common.

Peregrinus wrote: »

But I think it's a quite different point from the fact that the (former) CICE course is only open to Protestants, regardless of an applicants willingness to engage with the religious education element of the course.

Its a somewhat spurious argument though, considering that both RC and CoI can avail of the same loopholes in Equality legislation to discriminate against employing graduates of the "wrong" religious ethos. Thankfully the employment legislation loophole which allowed schools to discriminate against those of the "wrong" sexual orientation or marital status is being closed, but it is still legal for a school to discriminate against a prospective employee on religious grounds. Even though it is the state that pays the salary.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

That is a fair point, but the religious indoctrination modules of both the CoI and the RCC should be offered outside of the DCU course, and run directly by the religions concerned. It would then be up to the students to select one or both of these indoctrination modules, if they thought it would broaden their employment choice.
Equally they could opt for neither, if their intention was only to teach in an ET school.
The state university should instead offer a common "religion beliefs and ethics" course synchronised with the new national curriculum.
Only one course is needed, with one intake stream and all classes in common.

AFAIK neither has a religious indoctrination module? The idea that students should have to take an additional course outside of their University in order to be able to teach the offered curricula in 96% of existing schools does seem rather more based on your own prejudice than the needs of the student who is looking to become a teacher, do you not think? Particularly when you're claiming the University should instead offer a module on teaching a curriculum that isn't taught in any school at the moment. Why should a University offer a module on something that Teachers are actually not required to teach rather than something they are? That makes no sense at all, either from the student's or the University's point of view.

recedite wrote: »

Its a somewhat spurious argument though, considering that both RC and CoI can avail of the same loopholes in Equality legislation to discriminate against employing graduates of the "wrong" religious ethos. Thankfully the employment legislation loophole which allowed schools to discriminate against those of the "wrong" sexual orientation or marital status is being closed, but it is still legal for a school to discriminate against a prospective employee on religious grounds. Even though it is the state that pays the salary.

That doesn't seem to make it at all spurious though; all you're saying is whilst Protestant colleges can prefer Protestants to train as Teachers for Protestant schools, Protestant schools are legally permitted to prefer Protestants as Teachers.

recedite

I'm saying that protestant schools use religious discrimination at entry to the course and at entry to employment, whereas RC schools only use it at entry to employment.
Its not like one "ethos" uses religious discrimination as a barrier to entry to their schools, and the other does not.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

I'm saying that protestant schools use religious discrimination at entry to the course and at entry to employment, whereas RC schools only use it at entry to employment.
Its not like one "ethos" uses religious discrimination as a barrier to entry to their schools, and the other does not.

But the schools aren't preferring a religion at entry to the course, that's the university. Schools may prefer candidates aligned with their ethos when selecting employees, but that has nothing to do with the university, does it?

expectationlost

IT carries this college view article http://www.irishtimes.com/student-hub/religious-identity-a-determining-factor-in-dcu-primary-school-teaching-courses-1.2774443?utm_content=sf-man along with this opinion piece http://www.thecollegeview.com/2016/08/27/opinion-outrage-absent-in-view-of-educations-religious-discrimination/ that I didn't think was particularily good, a copy of the RTE story

The easy option here would be to blame religious institutions, but it is not really their fault. All they want is qualified teachers willing to carry on their ethos.

t was up to DCU to not unnecessarily placate them. If they had created a single course for people of all faiths, Protestant teenagers would still have had open avenues to become primary school teachers. Instead the university facilitated discrimination.

what would have happened if there'd be a single entry point, can DCU ignore the facts on the ground of denominational faith schools and not positively discriminate for protestants schools?

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

But the schools aren't preferring a religion at entry to the course, that's the university. Schools may prefer candidates aligned with their ethos when selecting employees, but that has nothing to do with the university, does it?

OK, technically I should have used the word "patrons" there instead of "schools", but the meaning is the same.
Each patron previously controlled the training of teachers for their respective schools, and that discrimination has been transferred with their courses to DCU.
The tragedy here is that their ways (religious discrimination and indoctrination) have been admitted into the state third level system. I think it may be the first instance of such in a state university situation?
Previously third level education in this country was generally unsullied by the religious shenanigans of primary and second level education.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

along with this opinion piece http://www.thecollegeview.com/2016/08/27/opinion-outrage-absent-in-view-of-educations-religious-discrimination/ that I didn't think was particualrily good

I agree, not great. If we translate this..

DCU will be in affect sending out fully qualified teachers with lower Irish skills to work in any school that will have them. Is it any wonder we face so many problems teaching children out native tongue?

into my native tongue (English) as follows..

DCU will be in effect be sending out fully qualified teachers with lower Irish skills to work in any school that will have them. Is it any wonder we face so many problems teaching children our native tongue?

I find myself thinking, well no two candidates will have exactly the same standard anyway, so its up to the jobs market to decide what minimum standard is required for any given post.

expectationlost wrote: »

what would have happened if there'd be a single entry point, can DCU ignore the facts on the ground of denominational faith schools and not positively discriminate for protestants schools?

Yes, as a state institution, they can and should choose equality. We can speculate on what would happen. Fewer protestants would manage to get onto the course. The CoI would still use discriminatory employment practices in the schools, so any CoI graduate would be snapped up. Then the CoI schools would have to recruit more non-CoI personnel than they do currently (onto the state payroll BTW) They may not be happy with this, and may decide to re-establish their entirely separate teacher training college. And then get public funding for it.

It becomes a very tangled web. As tends to happen, whenever there is a lack of separation between the church and the state.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

Yes, as a state institution, they can and should choose equality. We can speculate on what would happen. Fewer protestants would manage to get onto the course. The CoI would still use discriminatory employment practices in the schools, so any CoI graduate would be snapped up. Then the CoI schools would have to recruit more non-CoI personnel

....to teach COI faith in schools? if they do that?

recedite

Well particularly in the infant and junior classes, to have a good rapport with small children, and be able to relate to them, and be liked by them is the most important thing IMO. Any religious doctrine or Irish language being taught is going to be at a very basic level in an English speaking school, regardless of the religious ethos.

If the CoI and RCC wanted to, they could offer their religious modules outside of the DCU course, and make them open to anybody. But why should they, if they can have their cake and eat it.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

If the CoI and RCC wanted to, they could offer their religious modules outside of the DCU course, and make them open to anybody.

because that would still end up with more non-COI teachers teaching COI faith

recedite

Yes. But school patronage is a different issue. This thread is about access to teacher training in DCU, and the course content.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

Yes. But school patronage is a different issue. This thread is about access to teacher training in DCU, and the course content.

could you reply to people actual posts. because Im not sure if that was reply to me, because I was talking about the end result of of not having a Protestant quota in DCU.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

..more non-COI teachers teaching COI faith

Have you got a problem with that?

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

Have you got a problem with that?

I think theres a real issue there.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

OK, technically I should have used the word "patrons" there instead of "schools", but the meaning is the same.
Each patron previously controlled the training of teachers for their respective schools, and that discrimination has been transferred with their courses to DCU.

Well, no, that's not true either, is it? The patrons of the schools didn't control the training of teachers for their respective schools. Teacher training was provided by religious organisations aligned with the patrons of schools, but that is a different thing... and to be expected, given that the schools want to provide a particular flavour of education, and a college providing teachers cabable of fulfilling that desire is likely to place more teachers, and therefore get more students.

recedite wrote: »

The tragedy here is that their ways (religious discrimination and indoctrination) have been admitted into the state third level system. I think it may be the first instance of such in a state university situation? Previously third level education in this country was generally unsullied by the religious shenanigans of primary and second level education.

That's a point of view, though describing it as a tragedy might be a bit histrionic. And I seem to recall that Trinity College was for quite some time considerably more 'sullied' by religious shenanigans than it is now, so that rosy tint may not be all that justified...