Why do women flake?

rjpf1980

We've all experienced this.
You meet a cute girl on the bus or while shopping in Tesco or the pub or while out for a walk or whatever and you strike up a conversation. You get all the signs she likes you and you share contact details. You text or call her and you get along ok and you arrange to meet up.
You are at the place and time agreed and then you get a text to say she is sorry but she has to work tomorrow or travel to meet a sick aunt or some other bs excuse.
When this happens I just move on to the next women.
I figure women flake because their mood changes or they got their satisfaction from feeling attractive already and don't need to take it further or they don't want to risk rejection or they playing some hard to get game.
Whatever the reason I don't beat myself up about it and arrange a date with as many women as I can so if one blows me off I can just meet another girl. Her loss not mine.
The majority of women will flake in my experience so it's best not to worry about it.
It would be interesting to know why women flake though.

Thoughts?

livedadream

is there a bang of rapist of ya?

naw in all seriousness, ive chickened out of dates, you can feel fat, feel like that spot was in the way, theres a million different reasons.

loads of reasons...

but your grand sure

arrange a date with as many women as I can so if one blows me off I can just meet another girl. Her loss not mine.

they must be queuing up!

rjpf1980

livedadream wrote: »

is there a bang of rapist of ya?

naw in all seriousness, ive chickened out of dates, you can feel fat, feel like that spot was in the way, theres a million different reasons.

loads of reasons...

but your grand sure they must be queuing up!

Women don't queue up or approach me. I always make the first move. There's no other way except to chat up women whenever the opportunity arises and arrange to meet up. The majority lead nowhere.

SarahMollie

rjpf1980 wrote: »

I figure women flake because their mood changes or they got their satisfaction from feeling attractive already and don't need to take it further or they don't want to risk rejection or they playing some hard to get game.

Maybe these women decide the flake because they don't want to go out with a man who thinks women are a collective who all think alike?

But seriously, this happens sometimes, but if its happening often, then the common denominator is you. Is there something in your approach that is putting these women off? Are they not taking you seriously for some reason?

rjpf1980

SarahMollie wrote: »

Maybe these women decide the flake because they don't want to go out with a man who thinks women are a collective who all think alike?

But seriously, this happens sometimes, but if its happening often, then the common denominator is you. Is there something in your approach that is putting these women off? Are they not taking you seriously for some reason?

No man has a 100% success rate. I think if I'm getting numbers and getting one or two dates a week I'm doing ok. Most women who actually do not flake aren't interested in a second date. Usually women who are interested will go out for 3 or more dates before it gets sexual. A lot of women I have met don't want anything serious. So very few of my encounters will lead to a relationship. Most men have a half dozen or so relationships before they meet a woman who wants to settle down with them and have kids. So for me it is a numbers game and whittling them down. A lot of fun along the way of course especially the sex. Most women flake though. A pain but no pain no gain as I see it. Long term the end goal is getting married and having kids but if it doesn't happen suck it up.

Wibbs

SarahMollie wrote: »

Maybe these women decide the flake because they don't want to go out with a man who thinks women are a collective who all think alike?

Indeed so SM. Whodathunk that individuals might exist…

But seriously, this happens sometimes, but if its happening often, then the common denominator is you. Is there something in your approach that is putting these women off? Are they not taking you seriously for some reason?

Aye, or it could be the simple explanation that he's using "pickup" type techniques which a) are a numbers game and b) will illicit some apparently good responses. However those responses are often from a sense of "oh crap say yes so I don't have to reject him directly" or later when second thoughts in the cold light of day kick in they bale, but again do so trying to avoid conflict. People are generally conflict avoidant anyway, but there is some gender difference here. Throughout history Women(™) being generally smaller and weaker than men, really couldn't risk aggressive behaviour from Men(™) so are more likely to demure until escape/safe to reject. IE why Women(™) are more likely to "flake" when approached by a complete stranger.

rjpf1980

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed so SM. Whodathunk that individuals might exist…

Aye, or it could be the simple explanation that he's using "pickup" type techniques which a) are a numbers game and b) will illicit some apparently good responses. However those responses are often from a sense of "oh crap say yes so I don't have to reject him directly" or later when second thoughts in the cold light of day kick in they bale, but again do so trying to avoid conflict. People are generally conflict avoidant anyway, but there is some gender difference here. Throughout history Women(™) being generally smaller and weaker than men, really couldn't risk aggressive behaviour from Men(™) so are more likely to demure until escape/safe to reject. IE why Women(™) are more likely to "flake" when approached by a complete stranger.

I'd rather be rejected than never try. I see these sad guys who never go on dates because they don't do anything. I just accept that most women will back out at some stage. That's how you find the diamonds in the rough I suppose. Nothing to do with how smooth or well dressed or cool you are. I've lost out to nerds who got the girl instead of me and can't explain why some gorgeous women are with some total pigs. Who knows? Move on and try it on with the next woman. They only way to find out if she is interested and wants to go out is to try and chat her up. I even like the dates that go nowhere because I love women and female company.

livedadream

rjpf1980 wrote: »

So for me it is a numbers game and whittling them down.

a numbers game, yeap hit the nail on the head there buddy. your a true romantic.

and for your

rjpf1980 wrote: »

most women flake

i have to say i disagree, the only men ive flaked on (three times in 15 odd years) are lads who ive felt obliged to go on a date with be it because they were really pushy, or we were set up by friends or something, theres also the type that dont take no for an answer, sometimes i can be to polite for my own good and find it hard to cut the cord with someone i dont like.

saying something like most women flake nonsense. its something most of my friends would never do and most women i know would never do.

Sam Kade

I thought you were starting a thread about women with peeling skin.

Wibbs

livedadream wrote: »

and for your i have to say i disagree, the only men ive flaked on (three times in 15 odd years) are lads who ive felt obliged to go on a date with be it because they were really pushy, or we were set up by friends or something, theres also the type that dont take no for an answer, sometimes i can be to polite for my own good and find it hard to cut the cord with someone i dont like.

Exactly.

LeinsterDub

Why does anyone do anything?

A billion and one reasons

SarahMollie

Wibbs wrote: »

Aye, or it could be the simple explanation that he's using "pickup" type techniques which a) are a numbers game and b) will illicit some apparently good responses. However those responses are often from a sense of "oh crap say yes so I don't have to reject him directly" or later when second thoughts in the cold light of day kick in they bale, but again do so trying to avoid conflict. People are generally conflict avoidant anyway, but there is some gender difference here. Throughout history Women(™) being generally smaller and weaker than men, really couldn't risk aggressive behaviour from Men(™) so are more likely to demure until escape/safe to reject. IE why Women(™) are more likely to "flake" when approached by a complete stranger.

Having read a few follow up posts, this theory makes a lot of sense to me. The mere mention of "pick up techniques" makes me feel a little sick in my mouth TBH and I'd wager that a lot of women feel the same.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

No man has a 100% success rate. I think if I'm getting numbers and getting one or two dates a week I'm doing ok. Most women who actually do not flake aren't interested in a second date. Usually women who are interested will go out for 3 or more dates before it gets sexual. A lot of women I have met don't want anything serious. So very few of my encounters will lead to a relationship. Most men have a half dozen or so relationships before they meet a woman who wants to settle down with them and have kids. So for me it is a numbers game and whittling them down. A lot of fun along the way of course especially the sex. Most women flake though. A pain but no pain no gain as I see it. Long term the end goal is getting married and having kids but if it doesn't happen suck it up.

Well your posts come across as showing that you date in a very transnational manner. If this comes through in person, I'd run a mile too.

livedadream

SarahMollie wrote: »

The mere mention of "pick up techniques" makes me feel a little sick in my mouth TBH and I'd wager that a lot of women feel the same.

nothing like the guy who thinks calling you fat and flirting with your friend will make you go weak at the knees.

Neil Strauss has alot to answer for.

rjpf1980

livedadream wrote: »

a numbers game, yeap hit the nail on the head there buddy. your a true romantic.

and for your i have to say i disagree, the only men ive flaked on (three times in 15 odd years) are lads who ive felt obliged to go on a date with be it because they were really pushy, or we were set up by friends or something, theres also the type that dont take no for an answer, sometimes i can be to polite for my own good and find it hard to cut the cord with someone i dont like.

saying something like most women flake nonsense. its something most of my friends would never do and most women i know would never do.

I would imagine most men have learned what works or doesn't through a long process of trial and error. A woman who experiences a wonderful date with a guy who takes her to dinner and then makes amazing love to her should keep in mind he has probably tried and failed to do this scores of times but for one reason or other he failed at each stage. Perhaps he was too pushy when he was chatting her up and getting her number. Maybe he sent texts later with spelling mistakes. Maybe he told a joke she found offensive over dinner. Maybe she didn't like the food or the drink? Maybe he was not gentle during sex or didn't make her orgasm? Who knows? I just use the same model I have grown comfortable with when taking women out. Sometimes the conversations are word for word nearly the same. I cut out what doesn't work and use what worked last time. I think every man tweaks what he does the more women he dates.

Even so the majority of women will always flake in my experience.

Sometimes dating women is like that great scene in Groundhog Day when Bill Murray who is doomed to live the same day again and again keeps blowing it with the same girl.

Malari

rjpf1980 wrote: »

I would imagine most men have learned what works or doesn't through a long process of trial and error. A woman who experiences a wonderful date with a guy who takes her to dinner and then makes amazing love to her should keep in mind he has probably tried and failed to do this scores of times but for one reason or other he failed at each stage. Perhaps he was too pushy when he was chatting her up and getting her number. Maybe he sent texts later with spelling mistakes. Maybe he told a joke she found offensive over dinner. Maybe she didn't like the food or the drink? Maybe he was not gentle during sex or didn't make her orgasm? Who knows? I just use the same model I have grown comfortable with when taking women out. Sometimes the conversations are word for word nearly the same. I cut out what doesn't work and use what worked last time. I think every man tweaks what he does the more women he dates.

Even so the majority of women will always flake in my experience.

Sometimes dating women is like that great scene in Groundhog Day when Bill Murray who is doomed to live the same day again and again keeps blowing it with the same girl.

But you're acting like every girl is the same and the only thing that's changing is you and your lines or technique.

meeeeh

The only time I lead someone was unintentionally. At first I thought he was joking because he was so arrogant and sleazy and when I realized he is serious I just played along and gave him my brother's phone number. The fact he didn't even bother to remove his wedding ring probably had something to do with it. The moron actually called next day and my brother was completely lost what the hell was going on.

livedadream

you know women talk right?

maybe the reason

rjpf1980 wrote: »

the majority of women will always flake in my experience.

is because you are repeating the same cycle with every woman:

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Sometimes the conversations are word for word nearly the same. I cut out what doesn't work and use what worked last time. I think every man tweaks what he does the more women he dates.

dating isnt some robotic, crunch the numbers and it will work thing.

not all women are the same so your dates shouldnt be the same.

you are treating all the women you meet in the same way, we're not all the same, we dont like the same restaurants, the same conversation as each other, engage with us differently, find out what we like and if we have anything in common.

This isnt the 50's were we are expected to swoon and dance with someone because they ask, laugh at their jokes, wait 18 months then get married and pop out some kids while the man goes off to work and we stay silent and nod and smile when or if necessary, engage the brain and the rest will follow.

its not rocket science. youre referring to dating as ground hog day, but thats because you are doing the same thing over and over again. thats your fault not womens, try to take a woman on a date somewhere new, that interests you. and see what happens naturally. you cant force this stuff you cant read off a script at a meal or over coffee and expect her to swoon.

SarahMollie

rjpf1980 wrote: »

I would imagine most men have learned what works or doesn't through a long process of trial and error. A woman who experiences a wonderful date with a guy who takes her to dinner and then makes amazing love to her should keep in mind he has probably tried and failed to do this scores of times but for one reason or other he failed at each stage. Perhaps he was too pushy when he was chatting her up and getting her number. Maybe he sent texts later with spelling mistakes. Maybe he told a joke she found offensive over dinner. Maybe she didn't like the food or the drink? Maybe he was not gentle during sex or didn't make her orgasm? Who knows? I just use the same model I have grown comfortable with when taking women out. Sometimes the conversations are word for word nearly the same. I cut out what doesn't work and use what worked last time. I think every man tweaks what he does the more women he dates.

This speaks VOLUMES. So everyone you go out to is treated to basically the same experience, that you've refined over time? This is honestly one of the most nuts things I've heard in a long time.

This comes back to my original point, that you look at women like commodities and not as individuals. You'll never have any meaningful success with this attitude.

Perhaps when a date goes well, its because two people have a connection, not because the man has finally perfected his routine and some clone of a woman duly rewards him.

Even so the majority of women will always flake in my experience.

Sometimes dating women is like that great scene in Groundhog Day when Bill Murray who is doomed to live the same day again and again keeps blowing it with the same girl.

This is just not true. I've never stood a guy up. Neither have any of my friends. Even if I've given out my number, if I'm not getting the right vibe from texts etc, I won't argee to meet. I never agreed to a date that I didnt want to go on.

Squall Leonhart

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Even so the majority of women will always flake in my experience.

Something has got to be up on your end if this is your honest view. I have had more than one woman back out of a date while I'm sitting at agreed location waiting on her, I get it can happen. Overwhelming majority have turned up however (sometimes I wished they hadn't though )

Could be way off the mark here but you sound perhaps like you expect a lot off a woman you've no history with, like she owes you something. The attitude is all wrong.

Malari

SarahMollie wrote: »

This is just not true. I've never stood a guy up. Neither have any of my friends. Even if I've given out my number, if I'm not getting the right vibe from texts etc, I won't argee to meet. I never agreed to a date that I didnt want to go on.

I don't think "flake" is even being used in the context of failing to show up or letting him down at the last minute. It's just used to mean that they don't want to continue dating him. Which he sees as a failure of his technique or a indicator of their reliability perhaps, rather than a feeling of incompatibility, lack of adequate attraction, etc. It's actually bizarre!

Big Bag of Chips

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Whatever the reason I don't beat myself up about it and arrange a date with as many women as I can so if one blows me off I can just meet another girl. Her loss not mine.

This might come as a huge shock, but most women aren't thick! They can tell a line, they can spot a chancer/wannabe Romeo a mile off. I'd guess the women who flake on you have the measure of you, and they realise that this particular date isn't all that important because you have another few lined up! So if you don't catch this one, you'll get the next. No biggie.

And they're right. It is no biggie, because you "can just meet another girl". Right?!

Everyone's happy.

cookiexx

Because you're treating women as though they're a game to play and a prize to be won and not connecting with them on an individual basis so that they might develop enough interest or intrigue to want to meet you again.

From personal experience I can tell you that the lads who are out there cold-approaching dozens of women every week with the same cookie-cutter chat-up lines and the objective to get as many numbers as possible are as obvious as a smack in the face and someone you want to get away from as fast as humanly possible. It just smacks of 'player' and someone who is disinterested in you as an individual and more as a potential conquest, which is seriously off-putting.

It sounds like you're "trapping" women into giving you their number for the reasons Wibbs mentioned and failing to spark any interest in your subsequent texts.

SarahMollie

Malari wrote: »

I don't think "flake" is even being used in the context of failing to show up or letting him down at the last minute. It's just used to mean that they don't want to continue dating him. Which he sees as a failure of his technique or a indicator of their reliability perhaps, rather than a feeling of incompatibility, lack of adequate attraction, etc. It's actually bizarre!

Yeah true enough.... but surely loads of first dates stay as just that, the first and only date. Like you have a nice enough time but both know that you're probably not meant for each other and agree to leave it at that. Most people don't get bent out of shape about it, which is why I'm finding this whole thread so strange!

rjpf1980

Malari wrote: »

But you're acting like every girl is the same and the only thing that's changing is you and your lines or technique.

Every girl is different but the law of averages still applies. I mean we have a jury of twelve random people who if presented with the same evidence generally will come to same verdict as any other twelve random people. People are individuals but the sum of all people add up to a rough model. This is how we model human behaviour. So in the same way there are patterns that work and patterns that don't. I suppose it's similar to cold calling. The more people you call and the more you tweak your pitch the more successful you will be. The best sales people constantly get blown off the same way a striker misses most of his shots on goal.

Wibbs

Malari wrote: »

But you're acting like every girl is the same and the only thing that's changing is you and your lines or technique.

Because to the pickup mentality they are. It seems to attract a certain type of man; socially inept and needs to learn later in life all the way to autism spectrum types who just don't get social cues. So you have empathic social stuff being ignored in favour of a system approach. This feels safer and much easier to understand for this kind of mind. The idea that the system works I just need to tweak parts of it. People/women are variables. The comparison to Groundhog Day an interesting and for me illuminating one. There are a couple of regular reregistering previous banned users into this stuff and yeah very much the obsessive sheldon cooper systems type.

eviltwin

It says a lot that this was posted in this forum and aimed at men

I would have thought the best people to ask were women.

livedadream

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Every girl is different but the law of averages still applies. I mean we have a jury of twelve random people who if presented with the same evidence generally will come to same verdict as any other twelve random people. People are individuals but the sum of all people add up to a rough model. This is how we model human behaviour. So in the same way there are patterns that work and patterns that don't. I suppose it's similar to cold calling. The more people you call and the more you tweak your pitch the more successful you will be. The best sales people constantly get blown off the same way a striker misses most of his shots on goal.

you cannot compare a jury to a group of 12 women. some women dont even know what they want until it hits them, you cant be all things to all women thats why your plan of attack isnt working.

there are friends of mine going out with lads i would get up on if you paid me.
the same as i have friends who have boyfriends or husbands i really respect and am just downright jealous of their relationship.

dating is a fickle world. dont play the odds, try and relate to the woman on her level.

SarahMollie

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Every girl is different but the law of averages still applies. I mean we have a jury of twelve random people who if presented with the same evidence generally will come to same verdict as any other twelve random people. People are individuals but the sum of all people add up to a rough model. This is how we model human behaviour. So in the same way there are patterns that work and patterns that don't. I suppose it's similar to cold calling. The more people you call and the more you tweak your pitch the more successful you will be. The best sales people constantly get blown off the same way a striker misses most of his shots on goal.

These situations are largely professional examples, this is not how people behave in their personal lives.

If I feel like I'm getting a stock response, how am I supposed to connect with someone. Sure I may as well try to have a relationship with Siri on my iPhone.

rjpf1980

rjpf1980 wrote: »

No man has a 100% success rate. I think if I'm getting numbers and getting one or two dates a week I'm doing ok...........

I'd struggle to meet enough ladies to have one or two dates a week given at least half of the conquests would be a PFO pre date.

Fair play to you, it must be like a full time job to you.

seamus

Most people are not comfortable being propositioned in everyday situations such as on the bus, in Tesco or out for a walk in the park. Because it's not something that normally happens. But they're also not comfortable being blunt or horrible either, so will maintain a friendly conversation as long as they have to.

Most likely if you ask for their number, they will give it to you in the hope that it will make you walk away and then they can just ignore you if you call.

That might sound blunt but if you're going around asking random women on the street out on dates and a large number of them are ignoring your follow-up, then they're being nice to you in the hope that you'll go away and leave them alone.

Protip: Most people aren't on the lookout for potential partners 24/7. They have no interest in being chatted up by strangers in public. A genuine conversation that randomly occurs is fine. A guy making obvious moves, is not.

SarahMollie

seamus wrote: »

Protip: Most people aren't on the lookout for potential partners 24/7. They have no interest in being chatted up by strangers in public. A genuine conversation that randomly occurs is fine. A guy making obvious moves, is not.

This is very true. Sometimes you strike up a conversation with a stranger naturally, but just being stopped in the street for no reason is a bit strange to me.

Anytime I've been asked for my number out of the blue, I've never given it. Thankfully this doesn't happen much in Ireland, but I do notice it a fair bit in the UK (I'm there a lot with work) and it just never sits right with me.

I did recently get asked out by a guy I was sitting beside in wagamamas recently when I was alone (work travel) - it seemed natural because of the communal tables and we were both smiling a bit as the service seemed a bit chaotic. He asked what my dish was called, lead to a bit of small talk and then ask for my number as I was leaving. If I was single, that probably would have worked because it was natural and I didnt get the impression that he made a habit of it.

rjpf1980

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

This might come as a huge shock, but most women aren't thick! They can tell a line, they can spot a chancer/wannabe Romeo a mile off. I'd guess the women who flake on you have the measure of you, and they realise that this particular date isn't all that important because you have another few lined up! So if you don't catch this one, you'll get the next. No biggie.

And they're right. It is no biggie, because you "can just meet another girl". Right?!

Everyone's happy.

Who said women are thick?

Women are not going to date every guy who approached them and asks them out. Women are physically weaker than men have to worry about rape or pregnancy. Women have a lot to lose if a man appears controlling or aggressive because he might be violent later on is she married him. A guy who is too easy going or has a low paying job might not be a reliable father. Women make these calculations all the time.

A guy who wants to be successful with women has to learn about female intuition which is much is evolved to be highly tuned and learn how to circumvent it.

Let's face it most women are highly self conscious about their bodies and the end goal for a man is to persuade her to be naked and allow him to penetrate her with his erect penis.

To get from a casual hello in a non sexual environment when a woman's may well be elsewhere to getting her to strip naked and have sex takes a lot of skill which has to be learned through a long period of trial and error.

Women will find an excuse to back out at any moment. A lot of hard work can be undone by one slip and you can be found out. A man always has to be wary and not screw it up.

A woman has to want it to happen and a man has to be able to differentiate between women who are open and women who are not. The only way as I see it a guy can learn is through continuous rejection. Even so most women will flake. There is no such thing as clairvoyance. You have to try your luck.

El_Duderino 09

rjpf1980 wrote:

I'd rather be rejected than never try. I see these sad guys who never go on dates because they don't do anything. I just accept that most women will back out at some stage. That's how you find the diamonds in the rough I suppose. Nothing to do with how smooth or well dressed or cool you are. I've lost out to nerds who got the girl instead of me and can't explain why some gorgeous women are with some total pigs. Who knows? Move on and try it on with the next woman. They only way to find out if she is interested and wants to go out is to try and chat her up. I even like the dates that go nowhere because I love women and female company.

You can't understand why a woman would choose a 'total pig' when they have you and your numbers game as an alternative? Maybe you should look into the concept of character rather than PUA literature.

Malari

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Every girl is different but the law of averages still applies. I mean we have a jury of twelve random people who if presented with the same evidence generally will come to same verdict as any other twelve random people. People are individuals but the sum of all people add up to a rough model. This is how we model human behaviour. So in the same way there are patterns that work and patterns that don't. I suppose it's similar to cold calling. The more people you call and the more you tweak your pitch the more successful you will be. The best sales people constantly get blown off the same way a striker misses most of his shots on goal.

There are patterns that work in general human contact! People you meet in every day life, whether in business or socially. You be polite, don't ask very personal questions, don't make rude observations, chat about current affairs and so on. This is how you can make friends, but when you are trying to date someone there is a huge level of importance of individuality. People have many friends that they like, even love, but generally only a few that they can envisage entering a relationship with.

professore

I think what many women don't get is that a guy, unless he's Brat Pitt, HAS to ask out a lot of girls. It's different for girls, they just sit there and talk to guys and generally the expectation is that the guy will ask them out - but some girls are super bitches and pretend to be interested in a guy so he will ask her out and she can reject him publically - maybe for an ego boost or whatever, I don't know. So you need a thick skin. Also a lot of the girls I liked and that liked me were in long term relationships - so that added a further complication.

It took me a while "back in the day" to realise this. A guy who sits around waiting for "the one" so he can ask her out will still be sitting when he's 90. For most guys, it's literally a numbers game, ask out lots of women, some will say yes, and a percentage of those you might actually like, or might not be completely crazy, jealous, paranoid or controlling. That was my experience anyway .... lucked out in the end and happily married 20 years now

Also I think the whole thing that a lot of guys only go for looks is equally true for girls - in fact girls are more picky than guys if anything. You have to look good on her arm so she can show you off to her friends.

A big difference nowadays though is that the end goal always seems to be sex - for most of us back in the late 80s early 90s it was just getting into a relationship, where sex might be on the table at some point, or maybe the odd shift and a bit of "heavy petting". Or maybe that was just me.

rjpf1980

SarahMollie wrote: »

This is very true. Sometimes you strike up a conversation with a stranger naturally, but just being stopped in the street for no reason is a bit strange to me.

Anytime I've been asked for my number out of the blue, I've never given it. Thankfully this doesn't happen much in Ireland, but I do notice it a fair bit in the UK (I'm there a lot with work) and it just never sits right with me.

I did recently get asked out by a guy I was sitting beside in wagamamas recently when I was alone (work travel) - it seemed natural because of the communal tables and we were both smiling a bit as the service seemed a bit chaotic. He asked what my dish was called, lead to a bit of small talk and then ask for my number as I was leaving. If I was single, that probably would have worked because it was natural and I didnt get the impression that he made a habit of it.

But the reality is he probably did that time and time again. Men aren't born with the ability. They have to learn it. That guy might have been told to f*ck off a few minutes previously even though it was almost the exactly the same scenario. You might have been persuadable and he might have succeeded with the next woman he approached.

Malari

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Who said women are thick?

Women are not going to date every guy who approached them and asks them out. Women are physically weaker than men have to worry about rape or pregnancy. Women have a lot to lose if a man appears controlling or aggressive because he might be violent later on is she married him. A guy who is too easy going or has a low paying job might not be a reliable father. Women make these calculations all the time.

A guy who wants to be successful with women has to learn about female intuition which is much is evolved to be highly tuned and learn how to circumvent it.

Let's face it most women are highly self conscious about their bodies and the end goal for a man is to persuade her to be naked and allow him to penetrate her with his erect penis.

To get from a casual hello in a non sexual environment when a woman's may well be elsewhere to getting her to strip naked and have sex takes a lot of skill which has to be learned through a long period of trial and error.

Women will find an excuse to back out at any moment. A lot of hard work can be undone by one slip and you can be found out. A man always has to be wary and not screw it up.

A woman has to want it to happen and a man has to be able to differentiate between women who are open and women who are not. The only way as I see it a guy can learn is through continuous rejection. Even so most women will flake. There is no such thing as clairvoyance. You have to try your luck.

Good grief.

SarahMollie

rjpf1980 wrote: »

But the reality is he probably did that time and time again. Men aren't born with the ability. They have to learn it.

What, the ability to be a normal human being and not a pickup artist? Actually that is something most people have innately.

I can spot the difference a mile off, I've had the pick up techniques tried on me in the past, and I've found them repugnant.

El_Duderino 09

rjpf1980 wrote:

I would imagine most men have learned what works or doesn't through a long process of trial and error. A woman who experiences a wonderful date with a guy who takes her to dinner and then makes amazing love to her should keep in mind he has probably tried and failed to do this scores of times but for one reason or other he failed at each stage. Perhaps he was too pushy when he was chatting her up and getting her number. Maybe he sent texts later with spelling mistakes. Maybe he told a joke she found offensive over dinner. Maybe she didn't like the food or the drink? Maybe he was not gentle during sex or didn't make her orgasm? Who knows? I just use the same model I have grown comfortable with when taking women out. Sometimes the conversations are word for word nearly the same. I cut out what doesn't work and use what worked last time. I think every man tweaks what he does the more women he dates.

And thus technique is working really well for you right? That's why you never change it.

Imagine being on the receiving end of a conversation technique that has been used and failed with dozens of women? How bored must these women be by your patter? But you say it's working so don't change or talk about anything interesting or unique or spontaneous. And definitely don't find out about what SHE likes to talk about and whether you could have a genuine connection or a future.

You seem to have it all sussed so why, oh why are all these women flaking? Why?

seamus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You can't understand why a woman would choose a 'total pig' when they have you and your numbers game as an alternative? Maybe you should look into the concept of character rather than PUA literature.

It makes me smile though to think that PUA has moved from being this pseudo-intellectual psychological game where PUAs claim to be able to seduce women with simple mind tricks, to admitting that being a PUA is about using the scattergun approach to getting your hole and nothing more.

SarahMollie

rjpf1980 wrote: »

A guy who wants to be successful with women has to learn about female intuition which is much is evolved to be highly tuned and learn how to circumvent it.

So you want to circumvent a womens intuition, rather than simple being a good person who's worth her time without mindgames?

Says it all really.

rjpf1980

Malari wrote: »

There are patterns that work in general human contact! People you meet in every day life, whether in business or socially. You be polite, don't ask very personal questions, don't make rude observations, chat about current affairs and so on. This is how you can make friends, but when you are trying to date someone there is a huge level of importance of individuality. People have many friends that they like, even love, but generally only a few that they can envisage entering a relationship with.

So if you want to get with her you have to learn how to get past her barriers. When you chat up a girl the shutters will come down like a shot unless you have the correct combination of actions and words. What that is is any one's guess. Which means you will fail 99% of the time. The more you try the more you learn and the more you learn the more likely you will meet someone who is interested.
But even so most women will flake.
Just my personal experience.

Widdershins

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed so SM. Whodathunk that individuals might exist…

Aye, or it could be the simple explanation that he's using "pickup" type techniques which a) are a numbers game and b) will illicit some apparently good responses. However those responses are often from a sense of "oh crap say yes so I don't have to reject him directly" or later when second thoughts in the cold light of day kick in they bale, but again do so trying to avoid conflict. People are generally conflict avoidant anyway, but there is some gender difference here. Throughout history Women(™) being generally smaller and weaker than men, really couldn't risk aggressive behaviour from Men(™) so are more likely to demure until escape/safe to reject. IE why Women(™) are more likely to "flake" when approached by a complete stranger.

^ That is why, whenever I am approached by oddballs, I don't follow the advice of my other half and ''just tell them to f**k off'', I say as little as possible and evade them. With regards to men looking for a date, I don't exactly find them threatening or anything so I don't have to acquiesce, but I would still prefer to avoid any conflict with a stranger, so I understand why some women might agree to it just to get rid of them.

Carlos Orange

eviltwin wrote: »

It says a lot that this was posted in this forum and aimed at men

I would have thought the best people to ask were women.

How many nanoseconds would this thread have lasted in the the ladies' lounge?

meeeeh

Op I don't think you are learning much. You are perfecting fax machine in the age of internet.

livedadream

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Who said women are thick?

you didnt say it but are implying it.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Women are not going to date every guy who approached them and asks them out. Women are physically weaker than men have to worry about rape or pregnancy. Women have a lot to lose if a man appears controlling or aggressive because he might be violent later on is she married him. A guy who is too easy going or has a low paying job might not be a reliable father. Women make these calculations all the time.

are you on drugs? this is ridiculous... no we dont.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

A guy who wants to be successful with women has to learn about female intuition which is much is evolved to be highly tuned and learn how to circumvent it.

depends on what you mean by being successful i guess.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Let's face it most women are highly self conscious about their bodies and the end goal for a man is to persuade her to be naked and allow him to penetrate her with his erect penis.

again, are you on drugs??

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Women will find an excuse to back out at any moment. A lot of hard work can be undone by one slip and you can be found out. A man always has to be wary and not screw it up.

just to reiterate, are you on drugs? this is nonsense.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

To get from a casual hello in a non sexual environment when a woman's may well be elsewhere to getting her to strip naked and have sex takes a lot of skill which has to be learned through a long period of trial and error.

a nice smile, a good suit and a few rum and cokes is all it takes for me to be honest... oh no wait... i need to check with my boyfriend what skill it too him to get me into bed... ill report back.

Widdershins

seamus wrote: »

Most people are not comfortable being propositioned in everyday situations such as on the bus, in Tesco or out for a walk in the park. Because it's not something that normally happens. But they're also not comfortable being blunt or horrible either, so will maintain a friendly conversation as long as they have to.

Most likely if you ask for their number, they will give it to you in the hope that it will make you walk away and then they can just ignore you if you call.

That might sound blunt but if you're going around asking random women on the street out on dates and a large number of them are ignoring your follow-up, then they're being nice to you in the hope that you'll go away and leave them alone.

Protip: Most people aren't on the lookout for potential partners 24/7. They have no interest in being chatted up by strangers in public. A genuine conversation that randomly occurs is fine. A guy making obvious moves, is not.

Dead right

Malari

rjpf1980 wrote: »

So if you want to get with her you have to learn how to get past her barriers. When you chat up a girl the shutters will come down like a shot unless you have the correct combination of actions and words. What that is is any one's guess. Which means you will fail 99% of the time. The more you try the more you learn and the more you learn the more likely you will meet someone who is interested.
But even so most women will flake.
Just my personal experience.

No you don't have to learn to get past barriers! You have to learn how to treat her as an individual. You keep saying you are perfecting your technique to get someone interested in you. But what about your interest in them? Are women really all the same to you?

rjpf1980

SarahMollie wrote: »

So you want to circumvent a womens intuition, rather than simple being a good person who's worth her time without mindgames?

Says it all really.

To convince a woman that you are a good person and worth her time when you genuinely ARE a good person and worth her time requires you use some sort of persuasive skill doesn't it?
I mean her time and patience is limited and there are other men some of who are very good at pretending to be genuine who will steal her off you aren't they?
A genuine nice guy has to hit on as many woman as he can or he will get nobody.
The guy who lies and cheats uses the same skills too.
You have to risk being rejected by a woman who mistakes your sincerely for manipulation if you want to have any chance with the opposite sex.
If you are too afraid to try nothing will happen.
The nicest guys in the world are constantly rejected.

rjpf1980

Malari wrote: »

No you don't have to learn to get past barriers! You have to learn how to treat her as an individual. You keep saying you are perfecting your technique to get someone interested in you. But what about your interest in them? Are women really all the same to you?

No they aren't. But if you focus on just one woman and don't spread your bets you are going to lose.

Women flake. It's just an occupational hazard.

You cushion yourself by hitting on as many women has humanly possible so that it doesn't leave you in the lurch.

kunst nugget

Jesus, this is an awful view of women and dating and is pretty sociopathic. The reason women flake on you? It's probably because it's blindingly obvious to them that you really don't give two shíts about them and you're playing a numbers game. I think you need to spend less time working on your technique and a little more time working on your personality. This is probably one of the most depressing threads I've read on here in a while.