10 minute interview - job already gone?

Jane98

Ok, so I went for an interview today., the first one this summer despite 5 years experience.

I have spent the last 2 days preparing for it and my DH took the morning off to look after the kids so I could focus and get ready etc.

I get to the interview, am left waiting for 20 minutes then they take me in and there are 3 people in the room the DP, P and another person. I am asked 4 questions namely:
1. Tell us how you got into teaching
2. How are the kids finding project maths
3. Why should we choose you for the job and
4. What do you you know about the ethos of the school

and then it's so do you have any questions for us. I ask them about the number taking maths to LC HL and then when they expect to make a decision and am told a couple of days.

So as soon as I get out the door I am thinking that the job is already gone?
Anyone else agree with me or have a different opinion? I am a bit gutted as it would be a nice school to work in and it would be my own hours after 5 years of maternity leaves etc.

Eimee90

It does sound like it I'm afraid. Really feel for you, as I'm the same, barely any interviews and going into my third year qualified this year.

The fact that the questions were so general is a big one for me, I can't imagine how they could get a feel of the person with those. Very unfair towards you. I hope you get something soon, and don't give up. There's a lot of positive stories out there as well.

1612

Sounds like lots of interviews I have done . Either very very easy or very very hard.
I have my 6th interview on Friday in Kilkenny .
Hard to have confidence after so many set backs!!
This is my 6th year teaching . To say its soul destroying is an understatement!!

Postgrad10

It doesn't sound great. Had similar myself, felt like they were going through the motions and not listening to my responses. Good luck anyway.

Jane98

Totally soul destroying. I am amazed that this is still going on in this day and age - it's totally corrupt!!! The person who gets the job should be the best qualified and the process should be totally transparent to show that.

I am starting to wonder if the application system should be done by an independent government agency.

1612

Teaching is completely corrupt in my opinion.
There is zero transparency in regards interviews. Remember this is tax payers money.
I rang the department about appealing an interview and my rights.
to cut a long story short there is no obligation for a school to give feedback. Some may give feedback ifrequested but apart from that there is zero accountability. Hire who they like and they do not have to justify their selection.
Experience or a 1.1 degree is not essential if you are in the know.
Any principals children I know have never had long if ever without a job and I can think of st least 4 who were in my class in college and some barely passed college.

man_no_plan

1612 wrote: »

Teaching is completely corrupt in my opinion.
There is zero transparency in regards interviews. Remember this is tax payers money.
I rang the department about appealing an interview and my rights.
to cut a long story short there is no obligation for a school to give feedback. Some may give feedback ifrequested but apart from that there is zero accountability. Hire who they like and they do not have to justify their selection.
Experience or a 1.1 degree is not essential if you are in the know.
Any principals children I know have never had long if ever without a job and I can think of st least 4 who were in my class in college and some barely passed college.

That's really a very unfair generalisation.

spurious

I got a job in a VEC not knowing anyone, so I suppose I must be in the secret inner circle.

While I appreciate people are disappointed when they do not get a job, the bottom line is there is not enough jobs for the people looking for them, not a great web of conspiracy of Principals stuffing staffrooms with their offspring.

Yes, people are part-time for years in a school and yes, maybe they are looked at more favourably than someone 'new' or from outside when a job comes up, because the Principal knows their work and they fit in with the current staff, it's human nature, not a countrywide plot.

mod: Less of the generalisations please.

Mardy Bum

Up the north most interviews are like that.

Those questions are quite open and would allow you to expound on them quite a bit.

Impossible to know the story but it is always important to just commit 100 per cent and go for it.

I would say that took longer than 10 minutes though surely.

1612

I agree it is my opinion and it may be somewhat of a generalisation. I will freely admit I have friends who got jobs on merit and were complete outsiders so not every job goes to an insider not at all! Some people do get a job on merit which is great . but from my experience in schools in Ireland there is high levels of nepotism / corruption and I can only describe it as downright socially accepted corruption / nepotism!!
Let me give some examples.
A secondary school in Stillorgan I subbed in had the principals daughter employed (permanent) a nephew ( rpt) another nephew doing all the general subbing !!
How can anybody in the right state of mind say there is not a conflict of interests in hiring your immediate family with tax payers funds??
My wife a primary school teacher in south east . Her principal had her daughter employed ( permanent) she had another daughter newly qualified full time subbing. Now here is where it gets interesting . The principal started bullying a full time teacher over a long time to try get her out of the school for her newly qualified daughter!! It worked a permanent teacher gave up her job in 2012 after years of harassment . Union was involved but offered limited help . General advice from union If you fall out with a principal for whatever reason there is little they can do . Think about the reference and your future career!!
Then there is the GAA player who are being told to do the dip as there is a job sorted before they even start the dip!!

I could go on with examples such as politicians \ priests on vec interview panels !?

joeharte123

1612 wrote: »

I agree it is my opinion and it may be somewhat of a generalisation. I will freely admit I have friends who got jobs on merit and were complete outsiders so not every job goes to an insider not at all! Some people do get a job on merit which is great . but from my experience in schools in Ireland there is high levels of nepotism / corruption and I can only describe it as downright socially accepted corruption / nepotism!!
Let me give some examples.
A secondary school in Stillorgan I subbed in had the principals daughter employed (permanent) a nephew ( rpt) another nephew doing all the general subbing !!
How can anybody in the right state of mind say there is not a conflict of interests in hiring your immediate family with tax payers funds??
My wife a primary school teacher in south east . Her principal had her daughter employed ( permanent) she had another daughter newly qualified full time subbing. Now here is where it gets interesting . The principal started bullying a full time teacher over a long time to try get her out of the school for her newly qualified daughter!! It worked a permanent teacher gave up her job in 2012 after years of harassment . Union was involved but offered limited help . General advice from union If you fall out with a principal for whatever reason there is little they can do . Think about the reference and your future career!!
Then there is the GAA player who are being told to do the dip as there is a job sorted before they even start the dip!!

I could go on with examples such as politicians \ priests on vec interview panels !?

When there is a massive shortage of opportunities for employment in a sector, this is what happens.

Unfortunate, I know.

raytray

I got my own hours out of a ten minute interview in a vec a few years ago. I didn't know anyone within the vec. I had thought the same as you when I came out of the interview but got a call that night. Since the vec was hiring a lot of people they kept interviews short.

spurious

spurious wrote: »

I got a job in a VEC not knowing anyone, so I suppose I must be in the secret inner circle..............[/B]

Perhaps VECs are less inclined to be run like family businesses.

ethical

Some Vecs are possibly straight but a few are as corrupt as the length of a summers day in Norway.A colleague ,recently applied for an assistant principals post within a school,five of her colleagues of varying experiences and none applied. Before the interviews it was 'commom knowledge' who would get the post (and it wasnt the most appropriate candidate,as per all the guidelines out there).There was an appeals process and my colleague appealed and was more or less bullied by the 'legal' person hired by the VEC to fight their corner.She told the employer that it was disgraceful what had gone on but they had their mind made up and would not listen.Their decision stood.Perhaps we should take a look at the corruption that is presently going on at the Olympics,blatant carry on that has destroyed the hard work of so many sports people .Irish and other nationalities,and then look at the system we have in our schools ,in particular the recruitment of teachers.The pain felt by the various Olympians over the last few weeks is being felt by the job applicant teachers in Ireland for many a long year and it will go on indefinitely if people do not stand up and whistleblow.

Jane98

As expected, I got the letter in the post today to say I had been unsuccessful but they will keep my details on file.

mtoutlemonde

Jane98 wrote: »

As expected, I got the letter in the post today to say I had been unsuccessful but they will keep my details on file.

... in a filing cabinet Sorry I couldn't resist. I'm waiting on an unsuccessful letter aswell - probably get it tomorrow to have a good start to the weekend. Keep the chin up and try again.

TheDriver

Interviews should be standard across each candidate whereby the time allocation should be equal. Now if a candidate just answers every question with one word, it can be over very quickly but thats down to the candidate. Equally sometimes you have to shut up a candidate if they go on and on and on. I would disagree that a job is gone however it can be the case that someone is already in the school and doing a very good job at it hence they will have an edge, particularly in the case of year 2 CIDs. Also it can be the case that one of the candidates did work in the school in another capacity and is very good so unless another candidate shows themselves to be a better bet, then who in their right mind managing a school would pick someone else just for the sake of it. However also in that line, it gives a chance for a change if the person didn't perform well.
I have mentioned many times here before and maybe its only when you sit on interview panels but the absolute crap people say in interviews and the amount of own goals scored would shock you. 70-80% of interview candidates rule themselves out very quickly to be honest. Showing the principal who is boss in an interview is about the biggest number 1 no no

Icepick

Why did it take you only 10 mins to answer those questions is what you should be asking yourself.

Jane98

Icepick wrote: »

Why did it take you only 10 mins to answer those questions is what you should be asking yourself.

Seriously? If you anticipate a lot more than 4 questions you do not want to spend more than an average 2.5 mins answering any one question.

I have done a fair amount of interviews up to now and I would say it is more usual to be asked between 15 and 20 questions, not just 4.

gaiscioch

I've said it so many times here, and I'll say it again: there is zero research done on what the situation is for the entire profession and it is really important that basic things like the number of qualified teachers on part-time hours, and for long they've been on part-time hours, is revealed.

While I have little-to-no sympathy for teachers who go into teaching with subjects which are not in demand and expect to be given jobs without going back and getting qualified in more employable subjects, I have immense sympathy for what seems like thousands (again, no statistics) of teachers who are going into years 5/6/7/8/9/10 on part-time contracts where they are being strung along by managements who are determined to get as many hours of unpaid work out of part-time teachers who are eager to please.

That's a crazy number of years for anybody's life to be on hold. Mortgages, kids, everything. Life is way, way too short - even though people in their early 20s doing this part-time insecure work mightn't be as aware as older teachers just how fast life goes! (at least I wasn't that aware in my early 20s).

The teaching profession has been made into a two-tier mess directly because of government policy, not only with yellow pack Made-in-England so-called-"reform" employment conditions for those unfortunate enough to have joined after 2011 but for all the above teachers who have been part-time for years and years. The whole system is now at the stage where government policy has given school managements a vested interest in always keeping some teachers part-time, while universities have been given a vested interest in making even more millions by turning out graduates for this mess/export regardless of how suitable said graduates' subjects are for teaching.

Above all else, as long as this state avoids establishing a centralised recruitment system for teachers à la An Garda Síochána in Ireland or teaching in France, Spain, Germany, Italy and the majority of other EU countries this problem of unemployed and seriously underemployed teachers and teachers teaching subjects they are unqualified to teach is absolutely certain to perpetuate itself. (Locally recruited teacher systems versus centrally recruited teacher systems in the EU: in this 1991 study (p. 9) and this 2004 study (p. xiv) - I can't find a more recent study.)

Eimee90

gaiscioch wrote:

While I have little-to-no sympathy for teachers who go into teaching with subjects which are not in demand and expect to be given jobs without going back and getting qualified in more employable subjects, I have immense sympathy for what seems like thousands (again, no statistics) of teachers who are going into years 5/6/7/8/9/10 on part-time contracts where they are being strung along by managements who are determined to get as many hours of unpaid work out of part-time teachers who are eager to please.

I'm sorry but that's unfair, my subjects are English and history, I chose them because I love them and guess what I'm good at teaching them. I make no excuses for that.

Why should I have to go back and spend another few grand on subjects I'm not good at or passionate at.

No one should have to retrain, that's such an arrogant statement. The amount of graduates need to be capped.

TheDriver

elsa21 wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's unfair, my subjects are English and history, I chose them because I love them and guess what I'm good at teaching them. I make no excuses for that.

Why should I have to go back and spend another few grand on subjects I'm not good at or passionate at.

No one should have to retrain, that's such an arrogant statement. The amount of graduates need to be capped.

I would think being history only would be the issue

evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

I would think being history only would be the issue

English and History are a common enough combo for a lot of teachers though no?

TheDriver

it is common yes but also in fairly good demand due to English being a core subject and history going hand in hand with it. Couple this with resource generally requires an english teacher

Mardy Bum

elsa21 wrote: »

gaiscioch wrote:

While I have little-to-no sympathy for teachers who go into teaching with subjects which are not in demand and expect to be given jobs without going back and getting qualified in more employable subjects, I have immense sympathy for what seems like thousands (again, no statistics) of teachers who are going into years 5/6/7/8/9/10 on part-time contracts where they are being strung along by managements who are determined to get as many hours of unpaid work out of part-time teachers who are eager to please.

I'm sorry but that's unfair, my subjects are English and history, I chose them because I love them and guess what I'm good at teaching them. I make no excuses for that.

Why should I have to go back and spend another few grand on subjects I'm not good at or passionate at.

No one should have to retrain, that's such an arrogant statement. The amount of graduates need to be capped.

Capping graduates is a daft idea. A teaching qualification can be used in plenty of countries. I don't hear anyone talking about capping a profession when they are studying to join it. However some people seem fine pulling up a ladder.

Now if a person is un/underemployed for years and can't get a job in their subjects it is them that is being arrogant in not upskilling further.

gordongekko

elsa21 wrote: »

No one should have to retrain, that's such an arrogant statement. The amount of graduates need to be capped.

That's the arrogant statement right there

Bananaleaf

1612 wrote: »

Teaching is completely corrupt in my opinion.
There is zero transparency in regards interviews. Remember this is tax payers money.
I rang the department about appealing an interview and my rights.
to cut a long story short there is no obligation for a school to give feedback. Some may give feedback ifrequested but apart from that there is zero accountability. Hire who they like and they do not have to justify their selection.
Experience or a 1.1 degree is not essential if you are in the know.
Any principals children I know have never had long if ever without a job and I can think of st least 4 who were in my class in college and some barely passed college.

Agree with you totally

man_no_plan wrote: »

That's really a very unfair generalisation.

What's said above is not actually a generalisation as the poster has written about what they have experienced. They haven't heaped all schools/principals into the same pile and swept over them with the same brush.

It is generalisation to suggest that all schools are like this, but it is the most serious case of delusion I've seen yet to suggest that none are.

About 7 or 8 years ago I was working in a school and a colleague of mine (who I team taught with) did not have her contract renewed due to lack of hours. Who replaced her? The principal's son. From team-teaching with him I got the stench of inexperience off him but put it down to the fact that he was probably just finished the dip or maybe even preparing himself for it. Neither. He needed the cash to save up for his big move to Australia. He was an engineer!

Now how in the hell can that be justified on any level? That was a VEC by the way.

Dickie10

So your saying he had no teaching qualifications at all??! Thats a crazy scenario if true, but I wouldnt be overly surprised. I have heard a lot of stories like this in primary and secondary schools, as a student teacher I know the score and how important it is to network with principals and boards of management.

You would want to be pretty naive to think that playing the game and networking through the GAA and Catholic Church with regard to teaching jobs was not an important part of job hunting. I know for me that both GAA connections and being a "Mass goer" got me my teaching practice school, which was beside me. I would say it may help when people are looking for jobs as QT also.

Mardy Bum

Dickie10 wrote: »

You would want to be pretty naive to think that playing the game and networking through the GAA and Catholic Church with regard to teaching jobs was not an important part of job hunting. I know for me that both GAA connections and being a "Mass goer" got me my teaching practice school, which was beside me. I would say it may help when people are looking for jobs as QT also.

Well it is not something to boast about as it will only draw ire upon yourself similar to the story above.

xtralong

Dickie10 wrote: »

So your saying he had no teaching qualifications at all??! Thats a crazy scenario if true, but I wouldnt be overly surprised. I have heard a lot of stories like this in primary and secondary schools, as a student teacher I know the score and how important it is to network with principals and boards of management.

You would want to be pretty naive to think that playing the game and networking through the GAA and Catholic Church with regard to teaching jobs was not an important part of job hunting. I know for me that both GAA connections and being a "Mass goer" got me my teaching practice school, which was beside me. I would say it may help when people are looking for jobs as QT also.

You're totally right, do absolutely everything to maximise your chances and give yourself the edge, these things make all the difference. Involvement in local GAA club trumps being part of your local cycling club, being an avid mass goer trumps being head of your local atheist/humanist group regardless of the underlying skills and competencies gained. Giving the 'right' impression and having contacts matters greatly. Also try your very best to get an A grade in your teaching practice. Was told by a deputy principal very recently that their ETB were only shortlisting candidates for interview this year with an A in teaching practice.

Mardy Bum

xtralong wrote: »

Was told by a deputy principal very recently that their ETB were only shortlisting candidates for interview this year with an A in teaching practice.

Utterly daft metric for shortlisting. No surprise the ETB are using it.

mtoutlemonde

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Utterly daft metric of shortlisting. No surprise the ETB are using it.

I have applied for numerous jobs and have never been asked for TP results.

I wonder what about the candidates that 'mistype' their TP result? Does that mean IF offered the job and qualifications are checked and the results don't match that your offer of employment would be terminated? (Just to note, I don't condone this but wondering what would happen if someone did it? Obviously if someone has been offered work - does a TP mark matter then?)

Bananaleaf

Dickie10 wrote: »

So your saying he had no teaching qualifications at all??!

Yep that's exactly what I'm saying. He had either done a weekend TEFL course or was planning to do one before he went to Australia and I think his plan was to stop off along the way and teach English for a bit, but yeah, he was an engineer.

Also, he used to smoke in the school yard during his periods off and could be seen by students going class to class or from classroom windows which has nothing to do with the story really but I always felt it said a lot about his attitude towards young people

Eimee90

gordongekko wrote:

That's the arrogant statement right there

Fair enough capping was probably unfair of me to say, but something needs to be done

NufcNavan

Well I notice a similar theme here. Schools who don't care about failed applicants and job interviewees.

I attended a job interview in a Dublin school for my subjects on Friday. Was told at the end of the interview that the job would start on Tuesday (tomorrow) and they would be in touch on Monday. Guess what? Not a peep from them. Left over the weekend wondering if I had gotten it or not. Most likely told the successful applicant to start and didn't bother telling the rest.

Should I ring them up and tell the school it's not good enough, or am I wasting my time. The secretary was very rude upon arrival too incidentally so if I get through to her than I reckon I might be.

mtoutlemonde

NufcNavan wrote: »

Well I notice a similar theme here. Schools who don't care about failed applicants and job interviewees.

I attended a job interview in a Dublin school for my subjects on Friday. Was told at the end of the interview that the job would start on Tuesday (tomorrow) and they would be in touch on Monday. Guess what? Not a peep from them. Left over the weekend wondering if I had gotten it or not. Most likely told the successful applicant to start and didn't bother telling the rest.

Should I ring them up and tell the school it's not good enough, or am I wasting my time. The secretary was very rude upon arrival too incidentally so if I get through to her than I reckon I might be.

If it were me, I wouldn't bother - you're the one who will be upset if you get a bad reception from the secretary because they she will probably madden you further. Also principals know each other and you could get a bad name.

Principals are extremely bad mannered that they don't get back to unsuccessful/unshortlisted candidates and maybe a letter to their organisation would be better. I had to ring a few schools last week enquiring about posts I had applied for during the summer. When I was told that the position was filled, I just said thank you and keep me in mind for any substitution that may arise during the year.

NufcNavan

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

If it were me, I wouldn't bother - you're the one who will be upset if you get a bad reception from the secretary because they she will probably madden you further. Also principals know each other and you could get a bad name.

Principals are extremely bad mannered that they don't get back to unsuccessful/unshortlisted candidates and maybe a letter to their organisation would be better. I had to ring a few schools last week enquiring about posts I had applied for during the summer. When I was told that the position was filled, I just said thank you and keep me in mind for any substitution that may arise during the year.

I don't see how I would get a bad name if I just remind them that they said they'd let me know. It is really poor form on the school's part and responding to the issue with silence will likely mean they will continue to do it.

mtoutlemonde

NufcNavan wrote: »

I don't see how I would get a bad name if I just remind them that they said they'd let me know. It is really poor form on the school's part and responding to the issue with silence will likely mean they will continue to do it.

Well it's likely you won't be considered for subbing work that could occur. Principals ring principals when looking for teachers at short notice - if you did well in the interview - they will keep your CV on file and pass it on.

I know it's difficult after submitting an application and attending interview but think of yourself as the better person and let it go. It usually takes a week to get the letter of regret. I once got a letter after a month

NufcNavan

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Well it's likely you won't be considered for subbing work that could occur. Principals ring principals when looking for teachers at short notice - if you did well in the interview - they will keep your CV on file and pass it on.

I know it's difficult after submitting an application and attending interview but think of yourself as the better person and let it go. It usually takes a week to get the letter of regret. I once got a letter after a month

I don't mind the letter of regrets but given the short notice of the interview combined with being so close to the start of the school year you'd think that they'd let you know by phone.

I know if I was a principal I would be ashamed to treat a teacher like that.

mtoutlemonde

NufcNavan wrote: »

I don't mind the letter of regrets but given the short notice of the interview combined with being so close to the start of the school year that they'd let you know by phone.

I know if I was a principal I would be ashamed to treat a teacher like that.

I've had a lot of interviews and I only recall one phone call to say that I was unsuccessful. I don't think principals ring unsuccessful candidates because 1. No one wants to disappoint anyone and 2. The unsuccessful candidate may question the principal for reasons why they were not unsuccessful.

I agree with you, if I were a principal, I would like to let candidates know asap.

daveharnett

elsa21 wrote: »

my subjects are English and history, I chose them because I love them and guess what I'm good at teaching them. I make no excuses for that.

That's cool, good for you. I love ancient Greek folk music, but I also love eating so I learned other skills too.

elsa21 wrote: »

No one should have to retrain, that's such an arrogant statement.

So people should ignore supply and demand, study what they love, and the world will conspire to provide them with a dream job for life?

elsa21 wrote: »

The amount of graduates need to be capped.

Hang on. So I should study what I love, but if I love teaching then shouldn't be allowed to?

Dickie10

I think elsa has some merit in her comments, its no harm to pursue the subjects you like and are good at. I would love to be good at maths, sciences etc , in demand subjects but im not so i cant get qualified to teach them. i dont think i would still pass leaving cert ordinary level maths if i had to now. just cant deal with it at all, that and tech drawing!

teaching is a tough occupation and it really does not suit people who are driven to become financially successful, i suppose its a bit like farming, its a way of life more than a way to make money! as they say about farming we should keep teaching til all our money is gone!

NufcNavan

Had another terrible interview experience. Applied for a position in an ETB school. I was told upon arrival that they did not in fact have my CV at all and they only had some other CV of a guy who had the same name as me but taught different subjects. There was a fcuk up in their database where you upload your details so in effect they knew nothing about me.

The interview as a result turned into a farce. It was very informal and I was asked very few questions (nothing on subject knowledge, discipline etc.). The interview was finished in well under ten minutes. The principal was apologetic and embarrassed at the time but the whole thing just felt a waste of time. It was a two hour return journey as well which added to the sting.

I was called the next day to be told that I didn't get the job (someone more experienced got it). There was no mention or apology again for how farcical the interview was. Fair enough the school are well within their rights to pick someone with more experience, but I did in no way get a fair crack of the whip. After a summer of interviews with no luck and no long term prospects of work I am becoming very disillusioned with the education process. This was the cherry on the cake.

man_no_plan

NufcNavan wrote: »

Had another terrible interview experience. Applied for a position in an ETB school. I was told upon arrival that they did not in fact have my CV at all and they only had some other CV of a guy who had the same name as me but taught different subjects. There was a fcuk up in their database where you upload your details so in effect they knew nothing about me.

The interview as a result turned into a farce. It was very informal and I was asked very few questions (nothing on subject knowledge, discipline etc.). The interview was finished in well under ten minutes. The principal was apologetic and embarrassed at the time but the whole thing just felt a waste of time. It was a two hour return journey as well which added to the sting.

I was called the next day to be told that I didn't get the job (someone more experienced got it). There was no mention or apology again for how farcical the interview was. Fair enough the school are well within their rights to pick someone with more experience, but I did in no way get a fair crack of the whip. After a summer of interviews with no luck and no long term prospects of work I am becoming very disillusioned with the education process. This was the cherry on the cake.

We took on two teachers last December for a mat leave on 11 hours each as we couldn't match the subjects fully. On an ordinary day they might not have gotten a job due to experience and interview technique etc.

They're both on full hours in our school this year cos they're great teachers. In the past we have had great interviewees who weren't great in the classroom. The knew their stuff and all but didn't click with the students, probably went on to be great in a different type of school.

The point is that the interview is only a moment in time and if you're unsuccessful it doesn't mean you're bust. Sometimes things work out, I'm sure people told the two we have that they were mad to take 11 hours that weren't their own etc. etc.,

oneright

I have to say I had an interview last Monday, told me Id hear in the next couple of days. I didnt so I rang today, I didnt get the job but what I got was very useful feedback and a place on their panel. Maybe a phone call is not the right way but I hate sitting in limbo