Aggressive behaviour among cyclists

Michelin

I have often noticed anytime I'm in Dublin cycling about how its quite competitive for road space among commuter cyclists often cutting each other up but this morning while driving in my car (glad to be in it) I witnessed one cyclist thump another one when they were stopped at red just because the first lad bet him to the narrow space of the cycle path while double-decker buses where passing by.

Some nut job on racers out there!

Is there much experience of that here?

PaulieC

Cyclists are people. Some A lot of people are dicks.

Casey78

But cyclists are never wrong! It's always someone elses fault.

endagibson

Casey78 wrote: »

But cyclists are never wrong! It's always someone elses fault.

Don't talk nonsense.

Moflojo

There are ar$eholes in every walk of life, and cycling is no different.

Remember:

Michelin

PaulieC wrote: »

Cyclists are people. Some A lot of people are dicks.

That can be, but I dont really witness this type of behaviour among pedestrians. Cycling does seem to raise the stress levels (of a few)

endagibson

Michelin wrote: »

That can be, but I dont really witness this type of behaviour among pedestrians. Cycling does seem to raise the stress levels (of a few)

I've seen pedestrians push other pedestrians out of the way, sometimes off the footpath and into the road.

Moflojo

Michelin wrote: »

That can be, but I dont really witness this type of behaviour among pedestrians. Cycling does seem to raise the stress levels of many

Have you ever stood and watched pedestrians trying to negotiate their way around a hoard of yellow-bagged English language students that has blocked the entire footpath? Don't tell that doesn't cause aggressive, or passive-aggressive, behaviour!

Fian

Michelin wrote: »

That can be, but I dont really witness this type of behaviour among pedestrians. Cycling does seem to raise the stress levels (of a few)

Cycling in traffic can raise stress levels occasionally, almost always though it reduces stress. I cycle rather than drive because it is a much more pleasant, speedy and less stressful way to travel into dublin city centre than in a car. In fact it is even less stressful than a luas which is normally my alternative if I decided not to bring the bike (e.g. if it is icy or dangerously windy out.)

In 6/7 years of commuting 5 days a week I have never seen a cyclist thump another though. The stress/anger is normally generated by fear, if someone puts me in danger or worse makes me think I am about to die then anger is a natural reaction. You mention a double decker bus was passing a narrow space, I wonder if the guy who lashed out was doing so because the other guy squeezed him into the bus and he thought he was about to go under it. I imagine that there must have been more to it than being annoyed about being "beaten" to the red light.

magicbastarder

Michelin wrote: »

I dont really witness this type of behaviour among pedestrians.

at what point do they stop being pedestrians, and just become people having a fight?

C3PO

Michelin wrote: »

That can be, but I dont really witness this type of behaviour among pedestrians.

Really ... ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/executive-punches-cyclist-for-riding-bike-on-dublin-footpath-1.2715085

Michelin

C3PO wrote: »

Really ... ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/executive-punches-cyclist-for-riding-bike-on-dublin-footpath-1.2715085

Was personally speaking but of course it happens.

It was just not nice seen one cyclist assaulting another just because he couldnt get ahead

seamus

Michelin wrote: »

I have often noticed anytime I'm in Dublin cycling about how its quite competitive for road space among commuter cyclists often cutting each other up but this morning while driving in my car (glad to be in it) I witnessed one cyclist thump another one when they were stopped at red just because the first lad bet him to the narrow space of the cycle path while double-decker buses where passing by.

Some nut job on racers out there!

Is there much experience of that here?

No. I've done about 35,000km cycle commuting Dublin over the last 8 years and have never seen a fight. I think twice I've seen someone shout at another cyclist for doing something stupid. People tend to just get on with things. Same as if someone stops in the middle of Grafton street and you nealry walk into them; you just go on your way, you don't get into an argument about it.

Cycling is naturally pretty stress-relieving, you rarely encounter someone else on a bike who's tense and edgy.

Countless times I've seen people in vehicles though beeping and screaming at each other for fairly minor things, and even people jumping out to shout at each other on occasion.

Stealthfins

Cyclists can be very aggressive,you'd notice in this forum they tend to gang up on anyone who has a problem with them.

Some actually promote dangerous cycling and endangering other road user's.

Eamonnator

magicbastarder wrote: »

at what point do they stop being pedestrians, and just become people having a fight?

And likewise, at what point do cyclists stop being cyclists, and just become people having a fight?
I can see this thread becoming quite philosophical.

Wishbone Ash

Michelin wrote: »

...Some nut job on racers out there!

Is there much experience of that here?

In my experience most of the 'nut jobs' are on MTB's/hybrids/Dublin bikes and seem to feel that they have to prove themselves in the vicinity of a Lycra clad road cyclist.

Taking the space in front at the lights is a habit often exhibited by slower cyclists with no awareness of how frustrating it is for those who travel faster.

endagibson

Stealthfins wrote: »

Cyclists can be very aggressive,you'd notice in this forum they tend to gang up on anyone who has a problem with them.

Some actually promote dangerous cycling and endangering other road user's.

Examples please?

Chips Lovell

Stealthfins wrote: »

Cyclists can be very aggressive,you'd notice in this forum they tend to gang up on anyone who has a problem with them.

Some actually promote dangerous cycling and endangering other road user's.

If you've any issues with posts on this forum, report them and the mods will deal with them.

Thank you

Stealthfins

endagibson wrote:

Examples please?

Like thinking its OK to cycle the new line in the Burren two abreast that's a lethal road.

Then I notice here a lot of posters who are cyclists take any problems with cyclists very personal rather than being neutral about it.

Cyclists can be very aggressive,I remember there used to be a guy on YouTube cycling around looking for trouble.
Very aggressive and vindictive I might add.

Zillah

Stealthfins wrote: »

Cyclists can be very aggressive,you'd notice in this forum they tend to gang up on anyone who has a problem with them.

Some actually promote dangerous cycling and endangering other road user's.

http://imgur.com/gallery/FOwZ77O

I met one of these in real life. Didn't think they existed. We were talking about commute times and out of the blue he went off on an incoherent rant about cyclists taking their lives in their own hands/they'll lose in a fight with a car/they're arrogant and up on an high horse and looking down from an ivory tower who do they think they are.

So that was surreal, and sometimes people do behave in real life the way I had once thought was only online.

DirkVoodoo

Stealthfins wrote: »

Like thinking its OK to cycle the new line in the Burren two abreast that's a lethal road.

What makes it lethal? Riding two abreast?

Please educate yourself before you embarrass yourself further.

You can't accuse people of "ganging up" if you deliberately try and spew uninformed and ridiculous statements. I mean, if it hasn't worked for Trump, why would it work for you?

And yes, that's exactly who you sound like...maybe not in your own head, but to the majority of people.

Beasty

Stealthfins has been (separately) instructed not to post in this thread again, so please do not respond to their posts further

Thanks

DirkVoodoo

I'd also like to add that the "Irish-ism" of "That's a lethal road!" normally means:

The road is perfectly fine
The road is narrow and winding, which is fine at a speed appropriate for the road
The road is marked by a "100 km/hr" speed limit sign
Road users believe that means that you must travel at or just above this limit
The road is not safe at that speed
The road is now lethal because drivers are unable to exercise any judgement and are simply "sticking to the speed limit"
Death ensues

odyssey06

You could blame the professionals:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/philip-deignan-rodriguez-split-my-lip-with-a-punch-on-climb-30571873.html

Also, there does seem to be in general not much widely publicised info on cycling etiquette in terms of other cyclists. The focus is very much on cars \ truck v cyclists. Of course, there are some people who that would not make a difference to...

NUTLEY BOY

endagibson wrote: »

Examples please?

Certainly.

Bus stop beside Foxrock Church going south. Lots of school kids waiting for 46A or 145. Cyclist comes downhill from Stillorgan direction at considerable speed. His priority was to gesticulate wildly at all assembled at the stop to get to hell out of his way so as to facilitate him lashing through. Luckily the kids got out of his way in time.

The core worries here were the ignorance, arrogance, aggression, negligence and attitude of the idiot on 2 wheels.

The ideas of shared space and vulnerabilities are concepts to which the cyclist was obviously a stranger.

I drive, walk, commute by public transport and cycle frequently so I take a rounded view. In my direct experience as a cyclist some of my fellow 2 wheelers are at times more hazardous to me than cars such is the poverty of their road craft.

buffalo

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Certainly.

Bus stop beside Foxrock Church going south. Lots of school kids waiting for 46A or 145. Cyclist comes downhill from Stillorgan direction at considerable speed. His priority was to gesticulate wildly at all assembled at the stop to get to hell out of his way so as to facilitate him lashing through. Luckily the kids got out of his way in time.

The core worries here were the ignorance, arrogance, aggression, negligence and attitude of the idiot on 2 wheels.

The ideas of shared space and vulnerabilities are concepts to which the cyclist was obviously a stranger.

I drive, walk, commute by public transport and cycle frequently so I take a rounded view. In my direct experience as a cyclist some of my fellow 2 wheelers are at times more hazardous to me than cars such is the poverty of their road craft.

As much as the guy sounds like he could be a wanker, maybe the concept of shared space is the problem here.

If the school children were waiting on the tarmac of the dual carriageway, what would you expect to happen? If someone beeped their horn, would that be arrogant, or a warning of potential danger?

DirkVoodoo

buffalo wrote: »

As much as the guy sounds like he could be a wanker, maybe the concept of shared space is the problem here.

If the school children were waiting on the tarmac of the dual carriageway, what would you expect to happen? If someone beeped their horn, would that be arrogant, or a warning of potential danger?

Indeed. While you can't excuse the behavior, the conflict shouldn't exist in the first place. I hate shared use paths, the risk is incredible: bus shelters, pedestrian lights, yields at every minor junction or entrance to an estate.

I used to use that section at Foxrock church and it was not fit for purpose. The other side was nearly as bad because kids would hang out behind the bus shelter in your path.

cython

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In my experience most of the 'nut jobs' are on MTB's/hybrids/Dublin bikes and seem to feel that they have to prove themselves in the vicinity of a Lycra clad road cyclist.

Taking the space in front at the lights is a habit often exhibited by slower cyclists with no awareness of how frustrating it is for those who travel faster.

I actually had an experience of this only this morning. I cycle through the Phoenix Park daily, and took note of one guy around Castleknock who, while I wouldn't jump to 'nut job' as a description, was not someone I would class as a good cyclist either. For example, crossing to the other side of the road and onto the footpath to avoid/break the traffic lights at the gate of the park, and shoaling past at a previous red light to pause in the middle of a junction before breaking it as well. Generally my attitude to this is "Gob****e, but sure pay him no heed", and as often happens I later caught up with him in the park anyway, and overtook him.

Now I know for a fact I kept a constant speed in catching and overtaking him, because it was always the same speed on my Garmin as I passed him, and pulled left again, but lo and behold he obviously got a bit bent out of shape at being passed as he decided he had to up the speed, and then pass me in turn, only to then slow down again as he got past me (again, based on the speed on my Garmin). While some people might call what follows a rush of blood to the head on my part, I got fed up at this point, as this guy had already basically been acting the twat, and he was now just getting in my way. However, needless to say I did not resort to violence as in the OP, but instead said "screw this", and just upped my speed to pass him and kept it up to burn him off. Might be small, petty, whatever, but basically once his dicking about started to impact me, I thought it best to get away from him before he raised my blood pressure any higher

ED E

Sometimes I feel like becoming a nut when morons with too small MTBs filter to the front of the cyclist line at lights only to hold up the entire lot. Its fine, you're slow, don't inflict it on everyone else.


I commute from the south of the city into the centre through rathmines which is a long straight with lights every 200m or so. Play hopscotch with the light breakers in the morning. Not worth your breath though.

bazermc

I blame Strava

jive

Whatever about anecdotal examples about cyclists; any aggressive cyclists are total morons. They perpetuate the issue between cyclists and other road users which is increasingly noticeable. It's a pity we can't have:

1) Proper infrastructure for cycling in Irish cities.
2) Some patience with a dash of sharing is caring attitude until #1 exists.

90% of problems posted on boards are to do with crap infrastructure (see above examples re: shared paths, people waiting for buses and cyclists are meant to navigate through a bunch of school children who we can only assume are somewhat erratic due to the fact they are children). Like aggressive cyclists, half-baked hare-brained cycle lanes also create issues because people don't understand why cyclists 'can't just use the bloody cycle lane our 'road' tax has paid for'.

NUTLEY BOY

buffalo wrote: »

As much as the guy sounds like he could be a wanker, maybe the concept of shared space is the problem here.

If the school children were waiting on the tarmac of the dual carriageway, what would you expect to happen? If someone beeped their horn, would that be arrogant, or a warning of potential danger?

I agree with you fully about the shared space problem at quite a number of locations including this one. In some instances I regard the layouts as being defectively engineered in the first instance.

The school children were not on the tarmac of the dual carriageway so that analogous argument just does not carry IMHO. If they were on the tarmac on the road I would expect them to be hooted out of it and quite rightly.

What I did expect was that the cyclist would conduct himself to the same standard of care required of all road users namely that of reasonable care as distinct from being insufferably overbearing. The very existence of a shared space places a significant legal duty of care on the cyclist approaching to do so correctly with proper consideration of what lies in front of him.

As one judge put it many years ago, use of the highway rarely involves absolute rights and does involve some elements of inconvenience as well as give and take. Unfortunately, this is applied by some to mean that they take and everyone else gives.

magicbastarder

regarding stress, i reckon what kept me sane during a stressful period in my job years ago was the cycle to and from work. not that i had any real hills to deal with - blanchardstown to leopardstown - the uphill sections were good to take stress out on.

endagibson

I did ask for an example...

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Bus stop beside Foxrock Church going south. Lots of school kids waiting for 46A or 145. Cyclist comes downhill from Stillorgan direction at considerable speed. His priority was to gesticulate wildly at all assembled at the stop to get to hell out of his way so as to facilitate him lashing through. Luckily the kids got out of his way in time.

Conversations about the inadequacies of "shared space" aside, the behaviour described above was not acceptable.

However, if one wished to look for a silver lining in that particular cloud, I doubt that this chap's behaviour magically improves when in a car. Best that he's on a bike really rather than 1,500kg+ of motorised vehicle.

rtmie

Maybe I should do some research before posting this question but hey ho.
Is there a motoring/car driving forum on boards? And if so do people post to it asking motoring enthusiasts on said forum to take responsibility for any piece bad driving/bad behaviour by a driver that they encounter?

magicbastarder

rtmie wrote: »

Is there a motoring/car driving forum on boards? And if so do people post to it asking motoring enthusiasts on said forum to take responsibility for any piece bad driving/bad behaviour by a driver that they encounter?

on the first question, yes. second question, i couldn't say.

tomasrojo

endagibson wrote: »

Conversations about the inadequacies of "shared space" aside, the behaviour described above was not acceptable.

Also, those off-road cycle tracks that go by bus stops usually have Yield triangles at the point they meet the bus stop. Not that bullying school children would be ok if there weren't Yield triangles.

Macy0161

rtmie wrote: »

Maybe I should do some research before posting this question but hey ho.
Is there a motoring/car driving forum on boards? And if so do people post to it asking motoring enthusiasts on said forum to take responsibility for any piece bad driving/bad behaviour by a driver that they encounter?

There's normally several threads on the first page giving out about enforcement. Today's one is on the N7 average speed camera's. "Do as I say, not as I do"....

Dermot Illogical

Cyclists have collective responsibility, motorists individual.
Every time some numpty runs a red on a bike, I'm to blame because I also have a bike. That's just the way things are.

rtmie wrote: »

Maybe I should do some research before posting this question but hey ho.
Is there a motoring/car driving forum on boards? And if so do people post to it asking motoring enthusiasts on said forum to take responsibility for any piece bad driving/bad behaviour by a driver that they encounter?

endagibson

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Cyclists have collective responsibility, motorists individual.
Every time some numpty runs a red on a bike, I'm to blame because I also have a bike. That's just the way things are.

Everytime a journalist writes one of "those" articles about cycling, we should all ask them when they are going to take responsibility for the death of Princess Diana.

tomasrojo

And Jayne Mansfield! They've been at it for decades.

CramCycle

Its really annoying when I check my voicemail and it says no new messages because they have already been listened to by Piers.

steamengine

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In my experience most of the 'nut jobs' are on MTB's/hybrids/Dublin bikes and seem to feel that they have to prove themselves in the vicinity of a Lycra clad road cyclist.

Taking the space in front at the lights is a habit often exhibited by slower cyclists with no awareness of how frustrating it is for those who travel faster.

Is this shaping up similar to Mods and Rockers in Brighton in the 60's - Can we perhaps look forward to running battles on Bray's seafront in summers to come ?

Lycras versus the MTB'rs - must fix more mirrors on my MTB.

Beasty

steamengine wrote: »

Lycras versus the MTB'rs - must fix more mirrors on my MTB.

We've already been there

Not sure one particular forum regular wants reminding of his "duel" with mockler though...

buffalo

Pertinent post...

my eldest son and I took our bikes onto the subway and headed downtown for Summer Streets, which is this thing where they close Park Avenue and you can ride (or walk, or run, or unicycle, or skateboard, or Rollerblade, I saw them all) up and down Manhattan unmolested by drivers:

...

In all it was a very pleasant (if uncomfortably hot) morning. It's also worth noting that New York City cyclists get a lot of crap for salmoning and all the rest of it, but as it it turns out we're all quite civil when we're not under constant attack by drivers.

...

Though I bet you'll never guess which road users don't understand the concept of sharing:

http://gothamist.com/2016/08/14/shared_streets_experiment.php#photo-3

terrydel

Michelin wrote: »

I have often noticed anytime I'm in Dublin cycling about how its quite competitive for road space among commuter cyclists often cutting each other up but this morning while driving in my car (glad to be in it) I witnessed one cyclist thump another one when they were stopped at red just because the first lad bet him to the narrow space of the cycle path while double-decker buses where passing by.

Some nut job on racers out there!

Is there much experience of that here?

Anyone behaving like that, even just racing others while commuting, would want to take a good, hard look at themselves.

07Lapierre

I've seen plenty of rows between road users. The most common i've come across are:

Cyclist v Driver ( Verbal abuse, Hand gestures etc.)

Driver V Driver ( Car horn, Hand gestures etc.)

But I've never come across two road users actually assaulting each other!..
(I guess i need to get out more! )

Chips Lovell

I've seen it plenty of times. People getting out of their cars to bate the heads off each other.

Last one I saw was a Saturday evening on Parnell Street. Fella in a Micra hopped out and gestured at another car. Gravely underestimated his opposition. Turned out to be four guys half his age.

magicbastarder

i was kicked by a pedestrian once, when on my bike. i'd say he was about five years old, and his dad was mortified. he came off far worse than i did.

ThisRegard

Beasty wrote: »

Not sure one particular forum regular wants reminding of his "duel" with mockler though...

What became of him, did he retire from boards in a blaze of glory or still active under different name?

Or was he simply swept up by a pro team after his win and out there making his millions?

ThisRegard

07Lapierre wrote: »

But I've never come across two road users actually assaulting each other!..
(I guess i need to get out more! )

Years ago standing at a bus stop across from the Central Bank one rush hour evening and a courier on a motorbike and a guy in a trade van had some cross words for each other. The lights went red and each got out/off from their chosen mode of transport.

Both start laying into each other, the biker swinging his lock but the tradesman was well able for it.

The lights went green and bizarrely both instantly stopped fighting, jumped on/got in and off they went as if nothing happened.