Problem tenants

gustus

Hi,
Im a landlord with tenants who have decided to not communicate, not pay rent, and not respond to any questions about the property or requests to access the property.
We were friends. They then said that they tested the property for radon (over a max two week period) and found it to be high.(I've read this takes 3 months) Instead of informing me of this, they instead attacked me with aggressive and threatening what'sapp messages. I said I'd come by first thing in the morning and was met with silence. I ordered the epa (environmental protection agency) tester and have since requested 4 times to gain access to input it and have met with silence.
The rent remains unpaid and they simply directed me by email to issue them with the 14 day notice period which I've done as I didn't know what else to do.
In law there is no obligation regarding testing for or reducing radon. I didn't know there was an issue. I Still dont in fact as I've no idea what test they did, how they carried it out, and I'm quite sure they blocked up the house vents some time ago for heating purposes.
They have a conspiracy theory that I knowingly put them in a high radon house and that the water tank and house vent (it's a 140 year old cottage) are part of that conspiracy.
Anyway that's the background. When you take that away I basically have tenants who won't communicate and won't pay rent and won't give access.
Any input would be welcome.
Thanks

Toots

Have you been in touch with the RTB to ask for advice? If not, they'd be my first port of call.

Lantus

Sounds like they want to not pay rent. Radon can cause lung cancer so even staying rent free is undesirable. If they were really worried they would be leaving asap. They're not which tells you everything you need to know.

Start all eviction proceedings asap.

gustus

Toots wrote: »

Have you been in touch with the RTB to ask for advice? If not, they'd be my first port of call.

Hi Toots. I have indeed. I've logged about 5 calls with them. However your options seem very limited as a landlord. Just looking for people that may have had similar experiences.
Thanks anyway

gustus

Lantus wrote: »

Sounds like they want to not pay rent. Radon can cause lung cancer so even staying rent free is undesirable. If they were really worried they would be leaving asap. They're not which tells you everything you need to know.

Start all eviction proceedings asap.

When you look at it like that it does seem very clear. Thanks.
14 Day notice has been served as has a house inspection.

Sad Professor

Are you sure they are still there? Maybe they already left?

gustus

Sad Professor wrote: »

Are you sure they are still there? Maybe they already left?

Definitely still there. Saw them the other day. Their car was blocking the garage.

antoinolachtnai

If you don't know about this you definitely need advice, from IPOA, a solicitor, a knowledgeable landlord or elsewhere.

The RTB are not your friend. They are a dispute resolution service. They cannot really offer you advice.

My broad suggestion is that you need to get into the RTB process as quickly as possible. You need to follow through on the process without delay.

I would be inclined to ask them to leave to allow remedial and survey work to be carried out. But the 14 day letter and so on is also important.

utmbuilder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you don't know about this you definitely need advice, from IPOA, a solicitor, a knowledgeable landlord or elsewhere.

The RTB are not your friend. They are a dispute resolution service. They cannot really offer you advice.

My broad suggestion is that you need to get into the RTB process as quickly as possible. You need to follow through on the process without delay.

I would be inclined to ask them to leave to allow remedial and survey work to be carried out. But the 14 day letter and so on is also important.

I think he is liable to put them up in a hotel if he asks them to leave for repairs, or trys a notice to quit without sending out the notices.

Really should call threshold.ie they can advise better.

To be honest its a scary story if its true about the radon they will be out of that house like a bat out of hell.

Musketeer4

Situations like this is exactly why landlords should be very, very picky about who they let in to their property.

antoinolachtnai

Threshold are not the landlord's friend either. They do their best, but it is really not their job to give advice to landlords.

For sure, you would have to tell them the tenancy has ended because works have to be carried out. There are lots of pitfalls to this, certainly. You have to be cautious and adept at this point. It really would help to have an experienced person guiding you.

It is certainly an option to send one notice, and then another. Even if there is a question of legitimacy over the first one, there won't be on the second one.

The trick is to them out as painlessly as possible. There may be a 'human' or 'social' way to get this done, which you may be able to do in parallel with the legal steps you must take.

Musketeer4

Do you or a family member live nearby? Just tell them you want to move back into the house and use that avenue to get the house back? You could go with the story your wife threw you out or whatever. Who's to prove otherwise?

spaceHopper

Don't go the repairs root, lets say they leave and you find there is no radon issue and relet it they can lodge a case that you falsely evicted them. Stick to they aren't paying rent. Pay the arrears or go.

notharrypotter

Radon Map Ireland

Not all of Ireland is affected equally, some areas are more prone than others.

Use this as a guide to support your contention to get it tested properly.

Using this as a pretext for repairs is unlikely to work.

Re

Stick to they aren't paying rent. Pay the arrears or go

Simple and straight forward advice.

Follow the steps in the correct order, do not take shortcuts as this will undermine your position.

We were friends.

You are running a business.
Keep all interactions professional.

chillin117

Thats like calling a property a fire hazard but staying there anyway (Rent Free) They just want free accommodation. .Fcuk them out asap

Ms Doubtfire1

Indeed, Unfortunately in cases like this the LL has very little support. Stick to the official procedure. Make sure you document everything.Start proceedings right away.

gustus

Thank you all. Proceedings are ongoing. Sticking to formal steps for now and allowing them to continue behaving badly. Can only but strengthen my case. Definitely learned my lesson to keep business and pleasure separate. Its a bloody disgrace though how little power you have as a landlord to gain access to your own property and to deal with rent arrears.

utmbuilder

there should be some form of credit protection , when this happens and if a landlord is unable to meet the mortgage repayments. even insurance.

gustus

I just got my EPA (Environmental protection Agency) Radon test results back. They are 40 Becquerels / M3. Thats 5 times below the safety level. It appears the whole thing was a load of cobblers.
I am planning to bring this to the PRTB and claim all lost earnings. Any experience with this anyone?

handlemaster

gustus wrote: »

I just got my EPA (Environmental protection Agency) Radon test results back. They are 40 Becquerels / M3. Thats 5 times below the safety level. It appears the whole thing was a load of cobblers.
I am planning to bring this to the PRTB and claim all lost earnings. Any experience with this anyone?

I cant believe your still fuss ing about. Did they pay any rent ?

Uriel.

gustus wrote: »

I just got my EPA (Environmental protection Agency) Radon test results back. They are 40 Becquerels / M3. Thats 5 times below the safety level. It appears the whole thing was a load of cobblers.
I am planning to bring this to the PRTB and claim all lost earnings. Any experience with this anyone?

Typically the best you can hope for is their lawful removal from the property after approximately one year, a large repair and clean up bill and possibly a civil judgment for costs that won't be worth the paper it's printed on.

Nonetheless stick to the legal processes and try move forward as quickly as possible. If you have savings, subject to your financial status, dont go blowing your savings in the near future because you may need to pay all manner of costs to secure a judgment, to exercise that judgment through the courts etc.

awful situation for your and landlords have next to no protection at all in these scenarios

gustus

handlemaster wrote: »

I cant believe your still fuss ing about. Did they pay any rent ?

Still fussing? Sure I only just got the radon result back and house has now been empty for 4 months. All the while paying the mortgage with no income. They were "friends" and completely screwed me over. I'll keep fussing

gustus

Uriel. wrote: »

Typically the best you can hope for is their lawful removal from the property after approximately one year, a large repair and clean up bill and possibly a civil judgment for costs that won't be worth the paper it's printed on.

Nonetheless stick to the legal processes and try move forward as quickly as possible. If you have savings, subject to your financial status, dont go blowing your savings in the near future because you may need to pay all manner of costs to secure a judgment, to exercise that judgment through the courts etc.

awful situation for your and landlords have next to no protection at all in these scenarios

They are out since August but I've had an empty property for 4 months due to "high radon" which it turns out never existed.
They broke contract 3 months early. Smashed vases and plant pots. Stole a few things. Took all light pendants. That's all after they sent a multitude of threatening and abusive messages.
Delighted my radon levels are safe but furious with their behaviour.
Apparently a dispute only costs 20€ to lodge... So probably worth it

punisher5112

gustus wrote: »

They are out since August but I've had an empty property for 4 months due to "high radon" which it turns out never existed.
They broke contract 3 months early. Smashed vases and plant pots. Stole a few things. Took all light pendants. That's all after they sent a multitude of threatening and abusive messages.
Delighted my radon levels are safe but furious with their behaviour.
Apparently a dispute only costs 20€ to lodge... So probably worth it

Why would you leave house empty for so long and did you actually think to get some professional advice on the radon issue.

I don't really get why you would do it the way you have done and you should really get yourself up to date with rental laws and both tenant and LL rights.

I would suggest you use an estate agent but do your homework and use a reputable one and really do proper checks on whom you want to let to.

Its a business at the end of the day so best never mix that up and become detached from the house as its not your home it is the tenants to be while they pay rent and as you know now they can overstay and many other things and most of the time never get back what's owed.

rawn

punisher5112 wrote: »

Why would you leave house empty for so long and did you actually think to get some professional advice on the radon issue.

I don't really get why you would do it the way you have done and you should really get yourself up to date with rental laws and both tenant and LL rights.

I would suggest you use an estate agent but do your homework and use a reputable one and really do proper checks on whom you want to let to.

Its a business at the end of the day so best never mix that up and become detached from the house as its not your home it is the tenants to be while they pay rent and as you know now they can overstay and many other things and most of the time never get back what's owed.

They kept the house empty while waiting on a professional to declare it safe, surely that's exactly the right approach to take??

punisher5112

rawn wrote: »

They kept the house empty while waiting on a professional to declare it safe, surely that's exactly the right approach to take??

No as why would this person believe the bogus claims in the 1st place? And from what I read friends( so called) were there and not paying and making all sorts of claims the op even stated they couldn't know if it was or wasn't present.


I really think they aren't cut out to be a ll as I stated its a business and all personal property within reason should be removed as to not be attached.

Mad in my opinion but sure hey not my house so oh well.

rawn

rawn wrote: »

They kept the house empty while waiting on a professional to declare it safe, surely that's exactly the right approach to take??

If you are in the habit of believing dodgy tenants claims its unsafe with no grounds or proof for their claim.

Most people would just rent it out again straight away, I certainly would and wouldn't have gone getting it tested either.

newacc2015

rawn wrote: »

They kept the house empty while waiting on a professional to declare it safe, surely that's exactly the right approach to take??

There was no threat from the beginning. They lied to OP about the test in the first place to dodge paying rent. Radon is not carbon monoxide, it doesnt kill you over night. It takes decades of exposure to be any way cancer causing.

A digital test could have been ordered. They are pretty accurate within 2 to 7 days

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corentium-AirThings-Detector-International-Version/dp/B00FORY4QU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481150614&sr=8-1&keywords=digital+radon

rawn

newacc2015 wrote: »

There was no threat from the beginning. They lied to OP about the test in the first place to dodge paying rent. Radon is not carbon monoxide, it doesnt kill you over night. It takes decades of exposure to be any way cancer causing.

A digital test could have been ordered. They are pretty accurate within 2 to 7 days

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corentium-AirThings-Detector-International-Version/dp/B00FORY4QU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481150614&sr=8-1&keywords=digital+radon

Can you imagine the outrage if the tenants weren't lying though, and the LL knowingly moved new tenants into a house that wasn't safe??! Yes it turns out they were lying, but as a LL (or any businessman) surely you legally have to err on the side of caution until you get a professional in to declare it safe?

The_Valeyard

I'd be interested in hearing how you proceed and have any joy getting rent back or damaged paid for.

gustus

rawn wrote: »

Can you imagine the outrage if the tenants weren't lying though, and the LL knowingly moved new tenants into a house that wasn't safe??! Yes it turns out they were lying, but as a LL (or any businessman) surely you legally have to err on the side of caution until you get a professional in to declare it safe?

Thank you for <mod snip> reply. Yes it was incredibly frustrating but had to be done. We were "friends" so I trusted their reports etc....

gustus

punisher5112 wrote: »

No as why would this person believe the bogus claims in the 1st place? And from what I read friends( so called) were there and not paying and making all sorts of claims the op even stated they couldn't know if it was or wasn't present.


I really think they aren't cut out to be a ll as I stated its a business and all personal property within reason should be removed as to not be attached.

Mad in my opinion but sure hey not my house so oh well.

Ll get a bad rap in the news. I was simply one of the good ones. Too good it turns out.

Yes they turned out to be bogus claims by people who called themselves friends. Unfortunately that happens sometimes. I guess we live and learn. But believe me it's an ugly situation which I hope others don't have to go through.

All that aside I cannot change the past, only the future and that's why I asked about actions from here on.

gustus

newacc2015 wrote: »

There was no threat from the beginning. They lied to OP about the test in the first place to dodge paying rent. Radon is not carbon monoxide, it doesnt kill you over night. It takes decades of exposure to be any way cancer causing.

A digital test could have been ordered. They are pretty accurate within 2 to 7 days

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corentium-AirThings-Detector-International-Version/dp/B00FORY4QU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481150614&sr=8-1&keywords=digital+radon

The gold standard test is the 3 month EPA test. Tenants claimed they used a digital test to get their results. Could have been someone digging for remedial work, I don't know. The fact is, that's what happened. I was hoping to talk about the situation now, not then.

gustus

Jacqueline CoolS Mimicry wrote: »

If you are in the habit of believing dodgy tenants claims its unsafe with no grounds or proof for their claim.

Most people would just rent it out again straight away, I certainly would and wouldn't have gone getting it tested either.

Im not in the habit of either taking dodgy tenants or believing their claims. We were "friends". One of them shared a house with me for 6 months. This is a situation where a "friend" nailed another to a wall. Not very pleasant I can tell you.

I believe that's one of the problems in our rental market though. Yes landlords just rent out again, nevermind the possibility something is wrong. Well I couldn't do that. I now know the claims were bogus but I didn't then.

Anyway I'm looking to move from here onwards. Looking to get them for lost earnings after their scam. And believe me they went to town on me...

FishOnABike

gustus wrote: »

Anyway I'm looking to move from here onwards. Looking to get them for lost earnings after their scam. And believe me they went to town on me...

Looking for lost earnings for the 3 or 4 months the house was left empty may be a grey area. You also have a responsibility to mitigate your losses. I can see the availability of a quick digital test as being a strong argument why there was no need to leave the property vacant.

You could look to the RTB for a determination on any rent owed from when they were still in the property and any damage caused. You did take photographic evidence of any damage I hope.

Once you have a determination they may pay up - or more likely they will not. You can then go to court for enforcement. The time and cost of this needs to be weighed up against the liklihood of recovering your loss (plus legal expenses).

If they have no assets looking for a determination and enforcement might be just be throwing good money after bad. While it galls being betrayed, especially by "friends" sometimes, from a business point of view, it is better to draw a line under things and cut your losses.

It might stink but until there is a more efficient way of dealing with non-paying tenants it is what it is. Only you can decide how likely you are to recover what is owed and if, on the balance of probabilities, it is worth pursuing.

newacc2015

rawn wrote: »

Can you imagine the outrage if the tenants weren't lying though, and the LL knowingly moved new tenants into a house that wasn't safe??! Yes it turns out they were lying, but as a LL (or any businessman) surely you legally have to err on the side of caution until you get a professional in to declare it safe?

The tenants were so concerned about their safety that they decided to remain in the house exposing themselves to cancer causing gases? Yet they had no problem living there rent free. There is something not right there, as they were lying from the start. IMO if they were really concerned with their health they would have left. They wouldnt even let OP test it himself.

AFAIK there is no laws regarding radon testing. There was no need for a professional. The digital tests can be 95% accurate. That is pretty good.

If every landlord/professional had to invest merit less claims from tenants, there would be tens of thousands of empty houses in Ireland.

handlemaster

gustus wrote: »

Still fussing? Sure I only just got the radon result back and house has now been empty for 4 months. All the while paying the mortgage with no income. They were "friends" and completely screwed me over. I'll keep fussing

Dont mix friendship and business is tried and tested. Never works

gustus

UPDATE: Did my own EPA test. Ater 90 days it came back 5 times below the safety level. I then took them to the PRTB. Mediation first, which collapsed as they wouldnt pay a penny. Moved onto adjudication and I was able to prove that they fraudulently changed the contract to suit the day they left last august. I was looking for 2 months rent + damages. I managed to secure 1 months rent in the end.
PRTB were so soft on the tenants it was laughable. I had concrete evidence that they had altered the contract. An EPA report which disproved their radon claims. And photos of damages...
ANyway thats what happened for anyone else in the same situation. It was hassle but worth it in the end to put manners on the tenants. The look on their face was priceless

currants

Good for you OP. You did the decent thing and followed the law and EPA standards. Its a pity you cant pursue them for further damages without costing yourself even more money. These kind of tenants are the pits and make honest LLs like yourself turn hard against all tenants, the majority of whom are honest people too. Had you known them long?

jamesthepeach

So you won but you lost.

Just about sums up the current situation between tenants and landlords.
Having some issues of my own at the moment as both tenant and landlord.

Definitely better off being a tenant than a landlord these days.

gustus

currants wrote: »

Good for you OP. You did the decent thing and followed the law and EPA standards. Its a pity you cant pursue them for further damages without costing yourself even more money. These kind of tenants are the pits and make honest LLs like yourself turn hard against all tenants, the majority of whom are honest people too. Had you known them long?

Thanks. And you're right. I've certainly hardened up as a result. In fact I've taken my house out of the long term rental market and will now make my years income from April to September.
I had known 1 of them for almost a year and a half, and his (As it tuns out) crazy boyfriend for just about 8 months. Looking back I should have smelt a rat earlier. The BF had said early on "Wow, this contract is really easy". Commenting that the terms were not were severe etc.. He also said that he read the contract from cover to cover and that he always does that etc.. Just a bit odd. I on the other hand was super relaxed about everything. I even forgot my copy of the contract on their coffee table and never collected it hence why he could alter his contract with such confidence, He knew I couldn't disprove him. However he stupidly didn't initial the changes or sign them. He also forgot that they presented the original unaltered contract to the park-rite office to get their Parking Permit. I was able to get a copy of this.
All in all a lot of hassle but they know the truth. And they LOST in the end.. Which is great to know

gustus

jamesthepeach wrote: »

So you won but you lost.

Just about sums up the current situation between tenants and landlords.
Having some issues of my own at the moment as both tenant and landlord.

Definitely better off being a tenant than a landlord these days.

Agreed. Landlords dont have a chance. The PRTB is like a doting mother when it comes to tenants. LL are the big bad wolf personified in their eyes. The Tenants really need to mess up to be found accountable and even then it takes times investment and stress to get a result...

jamesthepeach

Masala wrote: »

Hopefully you can screw them over if you ever contacted for a reference down the line....

It's amazing how many people don't check references properly. They'll probably get away with it.
I have a standard set of questions that i ask that i gathered up over the years to weed out problem tenants. I am currently renting and the landlord didn't even ring and only asked for one reference. While it suited me he did leave him self wide open to risk.

gustus

jamesthepeach wrote: »

So you won but you lost.

Just about sums up the current situation between tenants and landlords.
Having some issues of my own at the moment as both tenant and landlord.

Definitely better off being a tenant than a landlord these days.

I guess I did win but lose... But I won more than I lost and thats all that matters. He walked out of there quiet, withdrawn, and financially down. He also lost psychologically which will hit him hard as hes that kind of person. ALWAYS thinks hes right and smarter than anyone else... SO the money plus the look on his face was enough for me

beauf

jamesthepeach wrote: »

It's amazing how many people don't check references properly. T...

Its amazing how many people think references can't be faked.

Because we have no system like a govt bond, or deposit system there is no way other than using your instinct and past experience to know who is a good or bad tenant or landlord.

gustus

beauf wrote: »

Its amazing how many people think references can't be faked.

Because we have no system like a govt bond, or deposit system there is no way other than using your instinct and past experience to know who is a good or bad tenant or landlord.

Its a minefield... Its no wonder more and more LL's turning to Airbnb. And it will continue. Property cleaned after each booking, twice the rent, less wear and tear, no one ever 'Moves in'..

beauf

gustus wrote: »

I guess I did win but lose... But I won more than I lost and thats all that matters. He walked out of there quiet, withdrawn, and financially down. He also lost psychologically which will hit him hard as hes that kind of person. ALWAYS thinks hes right and smarter than anyone else... SO the money plus the look on his face was enough for me

If someone had the nerve to do this to a "friend" I suspect they could care less. As its their nature.

jamesthepeach

beauf wrote: »

Its amazing how many people think references can't be faked.

Because we have no system like a govt bond, or deposit system there is no way other than using your instinct and past experience to know who is a good or bad tenant or landlord.

Which is why you need to check them properly.
And check last 3 landlords by calling them too.

You can't get rid of the risk of them being faked altogether , but you can make sure you minimise the risk that they are by doing everything i your power to.

beauf

rawn wrote: »

Can you imagine the outrage if the tenants weren't lying though, and the LL knowingly moved new tenants into a house that wasn't safe??! Yes it turns out they were lying, but as a LL (or any businessman) surely you legally have to err on the side of caution until you get a professional in to declare it safe?

How does the risk compare sharing a house with smokers.

Considering its was 99% likely to be complete scam.

beauf

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Which is why you need to check them properly....You can't get rid of the risk of them being faked....

Which is the point. There is no way to check them "properly". I'm not disputing that you do the best you can do. We are sorely lacking some better system though.

Masala

gustus wrote: »

I dont think theyll be using me as a reference. But one of them owns a fairly new barber shop in the city centre hipster district.. Needless to say Ive told anyone and everyone about his antics.. Not that he'll feel it that much but what else can I do...

... who knows!!!! This data needed by Garda Clearance. Maybe by Banks fir credit purposes???? What goes around .. comes around!!!

To bad you didn't get them to court.... a bad Credit Referance is a silent killer!!