Funeral for an atheist?

rawn

This is all hypothetical, thankfully!

My partner and I were both baptised as Catholics but we would consider ourselves atheist. We're getting married in a registry office, completely removed from religion. A thread in Consumer Issues just got me thinking...

What would happen if one of us died? How do you go about arranging a funeral with no church/priest involvement? Is there such a thing? We always said that after we go we'd love to be cremated and put into one of those eco-tree urns that you bury, would a funeral home be equipped to deal with that or would we be pushed towards the traditional church/priest route?

annalee

I attended a humanist funeral ceremony of a close friend before Christmas and it was a very dignified non religious ceremony in a funeral home which had a crematorium attached. Family spoke of their loved one, poetry was read and favourite music of the deceased was played. Following the service the remains were cremated. Very respectful and conducted by someone who the funeral home employ to facilitate this type of ceremony.

garbeth

You can get cremated without any church/ priest involved. The funeral home would have all of the details. My mother was cremated last year in clondalkin. We had a mass for her before hand but you don't have to.

Best to tell people this is your wish so they can do it after you die.

Have a look at http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/funeral-services/burials-cremations/

_Brian

I attended a "funeral" in Sligo some years ago.
The undertaker coffined the chap in the mortuary in the hospital. No prayers or anything, no one went into the mortuary at all. He was brought by hearse straight to the graveyard. There were 4 of us present including his wife. The gravediggers helped myself and my brother carry the coffin and lower it into the grave. No priest, no prayers, no words. He was just buried and the lads started filling in the grave immediately. We left and went for tea. No one has been back to the grave and his wife doesn't remember where it was exactly and has no intention of returning.

My brother was quite shocked, thought it was surely illegal or something to just have a hole dug and lower a fella into it without anything.

rawn

I'm strangely relieved to hear all that! I just got this horrible feeling that we would be fighting against the tide to keep the church out of it

sheesh

A funeral home would facilitate this. for a big funeral consider hiring a hall. funeral home to graveyard function room in a hotel afterwards job done!

eeguy

Cremated would be my preference. All organs donated and the rest burnt and scattered somewhere.

Disgruntled Badger

rawn wrote:

I'm strangely relieved to hear all that! I just got this horrible feeling that we would be fighting against the tide to keep the church out of it

Im curious, Why do you think a church would make a claim over your cadaver? Have to admit that made me smile. The Christian Churches don't claim you even after baptism, that's up to you, but they'll always welcome you whenever you like.

Your nominated or appointed executors control everything, and Christian burial grounds are already highly sought after by Christians so it isn't always easy to 'get in'. If you are not a Christian you go where you can, noting there is strict legislation about the disposal of human remains. Not largely adhered to in the case of cremation it must be admitted, but if you've any designs on a public display there are legal implications if it is not a recognised graveyard, which are usually controlled by councils on an evangelical and also atheistic basis. I suggest speaking to a funeral home. They are experts in this. Hope this helps.

Peregrinus

If you feel the need for a ritual or ceremony, the Humanist Association of Ireland conducts non-religious ceremonies and can help you both with ideas and planning and by providing a celebrant, if needed.

And a further thought: If you don't think it would be too morbid, make sure that the wider families of both you and your partner know about your thinking and your intentions on this. If the grieving partner is "fighting against the tide" to keep the church out of the funeral, that tide won't be the church; it'll be the expectations, assumptions or wishes of your family. That's where any pressure is likely to come from, and you can hopefully avoid a lot of that pressure by managing everyone's expectations now, rather than when the matter of funeral arrangements become an immediate issue.

vibe666

take out anything useful that can be donated, then drop what's left of me out of a plane over the ocean. apparently water is harder than concrete at terminal velocity, and you'll be practically disintegrated and essentially become exotic fish food.

Peregrinus

The plane seems like a needless expense. Can we not just row out a bit and tip you over the side, suitably weighted? You won't be disintegrated quite so quickly, but I don't think that will bother the fish.

vibe666

Peregrinus wrote: »

The plane seems like a needless expense. Can we not just row out a bit and tip you over the side, suitably weighted? You won't be disintegrated quite so quickly, but I don't think that will bother the fish.

don't forget the old mexican gang trick of wrapping me in chicken wire, so that when i bloat, it chops me up into managable chunks for the fishes, instead of potentially breaking me (or big bits of me) free from my weighted shackles.

Peregrinus

The chicken wire seems like a needless expense, surely?

theteal

I've discussed this with mrsTeal before. She knows that under no circumstances will the catholic church be anywhere near my dead body. The plan is to donate everything, perch what's left in the corner of a room, invite friends and family over for a drink and to talk sh!t about how much of an obtuse belligerent poxbottle I was. Then stick me in a furnace and mrsTeal can do what she likes with the dust. I don't want my smelly dead corpse to be any more of a financial burden on her than its smelly live version currently is.

Squeeonline

theteal wrote: »

I've discussed this with mrsTeal before. She knows that under no circumstances will the catholic church be anywhere near my dead body. The plan is to donate everything, perch what's left in the corner of a room, invite friends and family over for a drink and to talk sh!t about how much of an obtuse belligerent poxbottle I was. Then stick me in a furnace and mrsTeal can do what she likes with the dust. I don't want my smelly dead corpse to be any more of a financial burden on her than its smelly live version currently is.

Well that's given me some ideas!

Perched in the corner posed with a sh*t eating Fr. Jack grin and a bottle of booze in one hand.

D0NNELLY

Ceremonies, rituals and wakes.. sounds all like a horse of a different name..

Just donate your bits to the college/science, then let them dispose of the waste along with the rest of their rubbish.

You won't care, you'll be dead.

Peregrinus

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Ceremonies, rituals and wakes.. sounds all like a horse of a different name..

Just donate your bits to the college/science, then let them dispose of the waste along with the rest of their rubbish.

You won't care, you'll be dead.

Careful, now. They organise regular (religious) services of thanksgiving for those who have donated their bodies. You don't want to find yourself being prayed for!

D0NNELLY

Peregrinus wrote: »

Careful, now. They organise regular (religious) services of thanksgiving for those who have donated their bodies. You don't want to find yourself being prayed for!

As i said, i wouldn't care, id be dead.

Ben Gadot

rawn wrote: »

This is all hypothetical, thankfully!

My partner and I were both baptised as Catholics but we would consider ourselves atheist. We're getting married in a registry office, completely removed from religion. A thread in Consumer Issues just got me thinking...

What would happen if one of us died? How do you go about arranging a funeral with no church/priest involvement? Is there such a thing? We always said that after we go we'd love to be cremated and put into one of those eco-tree urns that you bury, would a funeral home be equipped to deal with that or would we be pushed towards the traditional church/priest route?

I'm surprised that a boardsie wouldn't be aware of his or her options in regards to this, it's been discussed enough on here!

Humanist ceremonies within funeral homes are becoming more common even amongst those with some sort of belief.

Ceremony is delivered by a humanist celebrant, which if you're lucky to be in Dublin, there should be at least one available per area code.

The celebrant will meet family beforehand to discuss the departed.

The ceremony itself can be as long as you want it to be depending on who wants to talk, in which case anyone is free to say their bit.

Finally, in regards to burial, you don't need a priest to be buried in a cemetary. All you need is to own a plot/or be willing to stump up a ridiculous price to buy one. Cremation of course as others have said is the other option

Ben Gadot

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Ceremonies, rituals and wakes.. sounds all like a horse of a different name..

Just donate your bits to the college/science, then let them dispose of the waste along with the rest of their rubbish.

You won't care, you'll be dead.

I think even with humanist ceremonies that they're more for the older generation to have some sort of way of saying goodbye.

When my oul fella passed away we had a wake where all were welcome (let's just call it a session for those sensitive to certain "ritualistic" words) the night before the humanist ceremony, and I would have been perfectly happy with leaving it at that, and more importantly I know my oul fella would have been as well.

To be honest you're right, as it really is much of a muchness. I felt the same pressure sitting in the funeral home that I would have in a church. The last thing the family needs is to be put on show like that.

smacl

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Ceremonies, rituals and wakes.. sounds all like a horse of a different name..

Just donate your bits to the college/science, then let them dispose of the waste along with the rest of their rubbish.

You won't care, you'll be dead.

I organised a civil ceremony when my father died last year, as has been said no need for religious involvement of any kind though you may well alienate religious extended family. If you're dead. and I'm assuming an atheist, the funeral isn't exactly going to matter much to you one way or another, and is only an event for those you leave behind. If you like organising stuff that far in advance, maybe put your efforts into a good wake instead and consider how you can making things easiest for those who remain. Most important thing is make a will, things are awfully messy without one.

magicbastarder

when i die, my wishes are for my body to be dropped from 20,000 feet - naked and covered in mustard - onto bertie ahern.
my friends will be able to watch and gravely agree 'it's what he would have wanted'.

smacl

magicbastarder wrote: »

'it's what he would have wanted'.

You or Bertie? :pac:

magicbastarder

i wouldn't put anything past him.

Jacxel

I'm 27 so hopefully it's not something I need to worry about for some time but if i was to die tomorrow i would just want my parents to do whatever they needed to help them grieve. The priest can tell them all i've gone to visit his imaginary friend for tea and scones, it's not going to matter to me.

I have given my girlfriend some suggestions of songs i would like played at my funeral, one of which is Tonight We Fly by the Divine Comedy, which is, I think a lovely appropriate song with just a hint of questioning religion at the end.

beach_walker

Jacxel wrote: »

I have given my girlfriend some suggestions of songs i would like played at my funeral

Worth noting that more dioceses are banning this sort of thing (rightly imo) so I wouldn't plan on it if it's a Catholic ceremony. Free to do it after of course. And err, hopefully it's not something that has to broached any time soon

eviltwin

Important to discuss with your loved ones your wishes on the event of your death. Its very important to me not to have a church funeral and I've made sure I've expressed this to my husband and children. I have a list of non religious services they can access as it would be too much to expect people in grief to go hunting for information.

Jacxel

beach_walker wrote: »

Worth noting that more dioceses are banning this sort of thing (rightly imo) so I wouldn't plan on it if it's a Catholic ceremony. Free to do it after of course. And err, hopefully it's not something that has to broached any time soon

I was thinking graveside rather than in the church, in any case the songs I would like played are literally the only request I have made regarding my funeral. Be it on whoever's conscience to deny a dead man's only (and fairly reasonable) request. Like I said it won't matter a damn to me.

I'm not writing my will yet anyhow

smacl

beach_walker wrote: »

Worth noting that more dioceses are banning this sort of thing (rightly imo) so I wouldn't plan on it if it's a Catholic ceremony. Free to do it after of course. And err, hopefully it's not something that has to broached any time soon

Advantage of not having a Catholic ceremony so. For my father's funeral we played Bruckner's 9th which is pretty lively, and while not what you'd associate with a funeral, entirely appropriate. Not sure why anyone who wasn't a regular church goer in life would want a church funeral.

Harika

smacl wrote: »

Advantage of not having a Catholic ceremony so. For my father's funeral we played Bruckner's 9th which is pretty lively, and while not what you'd associate with a funeral, entirely appropriate. Not sure why anyone who wasn't a regular church goer in life would want a church funeral.

I think funerals are more for the surviving people than for the dead. That's why I told my wife, she should do whatever she wants with my corpse, so she can say proper goodbye in her faith. While I still will respect that she wants a catholic funeral if she jumps before me.

smacl

Harika wrote: »

I think funerals are more for the surviving people than for the dead. That's why I told my wife, she should do whatever she wants with my corpse, so she can say proper goodbye in her faith. While I still will respect that she wants a catholic funeral if she jumps before me.

I'm guessing it is not what you're implying, but the generalisation of the above is that a Catholic's wishes to have a Catholic funeral should be respected by the survivors, regardless of whether they're Catholic, yet an Atheist's shouldn't?

I'd also wonder why a Catholic would want to give a non-Catholic a Catholic funeral. Say the deceased has a number of family members of different religious persuasions, should they all be accommodated?

I ask this as it was something I had to deal with first hand organising my own father's funeral, where his sister didn't attend because it wasn't a church funeral. While this may seem harsh, my father was an atheist all of his adult life and had scant regard for the church, so anything other than a non-religious ceremony would have been utterly cynical and disrespectful. Each to their own.

Jacxel

smacl wrote: »

...his sister didn't attend because it wasn't a church funeral..

That's just bigotry, sorry to offend your Aunt.

Harika

smacl wrote: »

I'm guessing it is not what you're implying, but the generalisation of the above is that a Catholic's wishes to have a Catholic funeral should be respected by the survivors, regardless of whether they're Catholic, yet an Atheist's shouldn't?

I'd also wonder why a Catholic would want to give a non-Catholic a Catholic funeral. Say the deceased has a number of family members of different religious persuasions, should they all be accommodated?

I ask this as it was something I had to deal with first hand organising my own father's funeral, where his sister didn't attend because it wasn't a church funeral. While this may seem harsh, my father was an atheist all of his adult life and had scant regard for the church, so anything other than a non-religious ceremony would have been utterly cynical and disrespectful. Each to their own.

I think you cannot generalize it, for my personal well being I would like to see my wife happy, and I think it will help her to overcome my death better, if there is a christian funeral. If you are atheist and don't want to be associated with a church funeral that is totally okay. So my wish is to make the survivors happy, and if they decide to have a catholic funeral, fine with me.

if there are more religious persuasions, yeah that might become challenging to accommodate them all, but I could also see an amazing funeral being combined with different traditions. The survivors just need to organise and arrange somehow, can be hard but possible. Just not my problem anymore.

In your position, I would agree to not have a church funeral, as he himself, had scant regard for church. So your own wishes should go first, but if you are happy enough to hand this over to your survivors, they can decide.

smacl

Jacxel wrote: »

That's just bigotry, sorry to offend your Aunt.

Just age and background really. She's a lovely woman and I get on well with her, but she comes from a time and place where questioning church or tradition was unthinkable. The father (and grandfather) were seafarers and ended up with a much broader outlook as a result.

Jacxel

smacl wrote: »

Just age and background really. She's a lovely woman and I get on well with her, but she comes from a time and place where questioning church or tradition was unthinkable. The father (and grandfather) were seafarers and ended up with a much broader outlook as a result.

Those are as fair excuses for it as any others, I'm sure she's a lovely person, I know the same applies to many people in my life. It's probably not worth creating an argument but my aunt is a jehovah's witness, if she refused to go to my protestant fathers funeral I'd be pretty angry about it.

rawn

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Im curious, Why do you think a church would make a claim over your cadaver? Have to admit that made me smile. The Christian Churches don't claim you even after baptism, that's up to you, but they'll always welcome you whenever you like.

I'm not sure exactly why I thought that! I was just thinking of my friend whose mother died suddenly a few years ago. Both were atheists but she ended up with a Catholic funeral, I think the final cost was near €5000. My friend doesn't even remember deciding or agreeing to anything (only child, no father so was completely lost) and it was only a while later that she started questioning why she ended up with a Catholic ceremony when neither of them wanted it but she was so grief-stricken she remembers very little. I think that put it in my head that a Catholic funeral was "default" for someone born Catholic unless the family really pushed for something lese. Glad to hear that's not the case!

My father is agnostic and I am atheist. I have extended family who are quite religious.
When it comes to my father's funeral, he will be taken from the Nursing home to the Funeral Home and directly to the crematorium. There will be a simple speech from myself at the crematorium about his rather colourful life.
His ashes will be couriered to his sister in the UK who will spread them in the sea near where he was born and she lives.

recedite

rawn wrote: »

it was only a while later that she started questioning why she ended up with a Catholic ceremony..

Probably some other relative took it upon themselves to organise the funeral (understandably) and when the funeral director asked what religion the mother had been, they replied "catholic".

rawn

recedite wrote: »

Probably some other relative took it upon themselves to organise the funeral (understandably) and when the funeral director asked what religion the mother had been, they replied "catholic".

That's the thing, it was all her with no relatives interfering cos well, she doesn't have any. I think she just basically agreed with every suggestion the director made and ended up with a traditional, expensive Catholic funeral. I'm not putting any blame on the dierctor and nor is she, it just made me worry a bit about my own funeral "defaulting" into a Catholic one!

recedite

Maybe the director knew the family as "good catholics" and she was too distressed at the time to answer questions and fill out the forms, so just left everything to him. I don't know, but I just think that somewhere along the line, somebody ticked that box, and not out of divilment, but thinking they were being helpful.

beach_walker

smacl wrote: »

Not sure why anyone who wasn't a regular church goer in life would want a church funeral.

I don't believe I said such a thing. FWIW I know of a brother who refused to go to a brother's funeral because it was Catholic. People can be weird when faced with death of a loved one.

beach_walker

Any Peep Show fans about these parts?

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

Important to discuss with your loved ones your wishes on the event of your death. Its very important to me not to have a church funeral and I've made sure I've expressed this to my husband and children. I have a list of non religious services they can access as it would be too much to expect people in grief to go hunting for information.

This is really important. One of the less romantic reasons we got married was that we'd then be each others next of kin and would decide on end of life arrangement and funerals. I've attended religious funerals for people who weren't religious and they really weren't a good experience so we've spelled out our wishes to each other.

InTheTrees

Isn't this thread title the name of a song?

Turtle_

Funeral dictators can be awfully pushy when they take a notion that something should be a certain way. My mum and I had to fight with one over wording a death notice- he wanted a pack of traditional stuff that, in this case, would have been lies.

We got a humanist celebrant who was fantastic, lots of ideas. That relative was actually a paid up member of the humanist association of Ireland. The funeral had music, people spoke to share favoured memories, we even had a photo slide show. Then we went to the grave and poetry was read, then music played as the coffin was lowered. Back for tea and some food afterwards.

It's easy to default to a RC funeral because they're so commonplace and you just go with the flow. But if someone knows that you don't want that then it's easier than you'd expect to organise a non religious funeral. The costs still add up though.. Grave opening, hearse, family car, enbalming,coffin, funeral director costs.. That's before you even offer anyone a cup of tea or have family flowers or anything else. Expensive business, dying.

I'm with you on the Eco tree pods, but don't know if graveyards would accept them and you can't just be buried anywhere (and with good reason!)

Giacomo McGubbin

rawn wrote: »

This is all hypothetical, thankfully!

My partner and I were both baptised as Catholics but we would consider ourselves atheist. We're getting married in a registry office, completely removed from religion. A thread in Consumer Issues just got me thinking...

What would happen if one of us died? How do you go about arranging a funeral with no church/priest involvement? Is there such a thing? We always said that after we go we'd love to be cremated and put into one of those eco-tree urns that you bury, would a funeral home be equipped to deal with that or would we be pushed towards the traditional church/priest route?

Don't sweat it, as long as you let us know you're an atheist, we can put you in along with the Prods.

"There is a degree of black comedy about this, and my mother, who had a fantastic sense of humour, would certainly have laughed.
"When I rang up and asked Derry City Council's cemeteries department if it was possible to bury an atheist in a municipal cemetery they said it was possible because there were different sections for Catholics, Protestants and Muslims.
"My wife asked if it meant they were going to start an atheist section and the woman said, 'oh no, she can go in with the Protestants'."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7588035.stm

Peregrinus

Jacxel wrote: »

I'm not writing my will yet anyhow

Actually, this should probably be a bigger priority than telling your girlfriend what song's you'd like sung at your funeral.

Peregrinus

Turtle_ wrote: »

. . . It's easy to default to a RC funeral because they're so commonplace and you just go with the flow. But if someone knows that you don't want that then it's easier than you'd expect to organise a non religious funeral. The costs still add up though.. Grave opening, hearse, family car, enbalming,coffin, funeral director costs.. That's before you even offer anyone a cup of tea or have family flowers or anything else. Expensive business, dying.

Worth stressing this last point. People tend to assume that a non-religious funeral will be cheaper, but actually ethos and cost are independent variablesw. I've been to lots and lots of non-religious funerals in Australia, but you still need a celebrant, a venue, a hearse, a graveyard or crematorium etc, etc. Funeral homes and cemeteries do have venues that you can hire but, since hire for funerals is their only revenue stream, they tend to cost more than a church, not less. For the same reason the celebrant's fee (if you choose to have a celebrant, which most people do) is not likely to be less than a cleric would expect.

That's not to say that you can't do a non-religious funeral for a modest cost; of course you can. But you don't save money simply by having a non-religious funeral; you save it - as you would with a religious funeral - by stinting on the catering, by buying a cheaper box, by hiring fewer cars, and so forth.

Thephantomsmask

Peregrinus wrote: »

Careful, now. They organise regular (religious) services of thanksgiving for those who have donated their bodies. You don't want to find yourself being prayed for!

To be fair, when I studied anatomy, the service we attended with the families was very much focused on thanking the deceased for the gift of education. The few prayers shared between the different clerics present were very bland rest in peace messages, it was designed to be inclusive and, as no names are read, nobody would know if they were directed towards an atheist cadaver, especially if the family did not choose to attend.

As an atheist who plans on donating my organs or body, being remembered in that way wouldn't offend me personally, we're all different though, I have jokingly threatened my family with a clause in the will that the solicitor can burn everything if someone tries to give me a religious send off.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's not to say that you can't do a non-religious funeral for a modest cost; of course you can. But you don't save money simply by having a non-religious funeral; you save it - as you would with a religious funeral - by stinting on the catering, by buying a cheaper box, by hiring fewer cars, and so forth.

I think it is invaluable to have a few level heads dealing with funeral homes as like any business, they're very much out there to make money first and foremost. We found the big name places came in at about twice the price of the smaller ones, and our experience of a small local funeral home was very good. We had a non-religious celebrant who was kind, did a good job and was in retrospect necessary, but ideally would have done without.

As you say, not doubt that you could do the same with a religious funeral, and would imagine a small church with a priest you knew first hand would be far warmer and perhaps more honest than a larger affair. My experience, and that of those of people I'm close to that I've discussed this with, is that funerals don't bring any significant closure when you lose someone very close, and grieving in various degrees is something ongoing.

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

. . . My experience, and that of those of people I'm close to that I've discussed this with, is that funerals don't bring any significant closure when you lose someone very close, and grieving in various degrees is something ongoing.

"Closure" two or three days after a death is a bit much to hope for, and frankly probably wouldn't be that healthy, so I doubt you should look for that from a funeral, religious or secular. But I do think a funeral can be a very supportive and positive experience although, obviously, not everybody finds it so.

Which goes back to a point raised earlier in the thread; should the religious/non-religious character of the funeral be determined by the views/wishes of the deceased, or by the needs of the bereaved for support and comfort? My own view is that you actually can't separate these two questions; if the way the funeral is run doesn't honour the deceased appropriately, as somebody who cared about the deceased that's going to be a problem for me; that funeral is less helpful to me than the one which acknowledges and respects his position. But, again, somebody else might have a different reaction.

The bottom line, I think, is that, even when alive, if you're a believer you can't force others to pray for you, and if you're an unbeliever you can't stop others from praying for you. And if you can't control that when alive, then you have bugger all chance of controlling it after you're dead. So don't sweat too much about things you aren't responsible for, and can't control. It will only make you unhappy.

If you care about your funeral - we can see from this thread that some unbelievers do not - then by all means talk to your nearest and dearest about what you would like. Will you actually get it? Well, you'll never know, will you? But the chances of your getting it are certainly increased if you ask for it.