What kind of a standard would you need to be at for A4 racing?

terrydel

I might try my hand at a couple of races next summer, just to see where I stand.
I'd be looking for hilly races because that is what suits me, I'm not super fast on the flats as I'm small (5'8'' <11 stone) but I climb pretty well.
I don't use strava or any of those so other than how I go on sportives, I've no real way of gauging where I'm at, other than to say I generally overtake 90% of the people in front of me on any of the climbs on the likes of the W200, but they'd often get me on the flats or downhills.
And if I was to race, I'd in all likelihood be doing it on my Giant Defy 1, its a good bike I think but obviously nothing special compared to what most have these days. No plans to change til at least spring/summer 2018.
Can anyone provide some real-world numbers or something that would give me an idea whether I'd be wasting my time and setting myself up for humiliation?!

lennymc

30kph for an hour over rollingish terrain is said to be a good indicator.
There is no humiliation, only not trying it

coach22

Go for it and don't worry about the bike. It won't hold you back. The standard is quiet varied from very good to bad. Usually the good people get upgraded early so the standard drops a bit throughout the year

splanagan22

Started a4 this year myself. Thought I was ok with 30avg speed in training spins of 70-100k. First race got dropped after 30k and avg speed was 38kmh, Finished in the bunch in old castle 2 weeks ago and avg over 60k was 41kmh. It's tough getting started but the trill is second to none. Did league racing all summer which helped big time.

terrydel

splanagan22 wrote: »

Started a4 this year myself. Thought I was ok with 30avg speed in training spins of 70-100k. First race got dropped after 30k and avg speed was 38kmh, Finished in the bunch in old castle 2 weeks ago and avg over 60k was 41kmh. It's tough getting started but the trill is second to none. Did league racing all summer which helped big time.

Solo training spins? All my training is generally very hilly, eg I'll do 40-50k tomoro evening with approx. 700m of climbing, and will look to average at least 25kmph.

JK.BMC

terrydel wrote: »

Solo training spins? All my training is generally very hilly, eg I'll do 40-50k tomoro evening with approx. 700m of climbing, and will look to average at least 25kmph.

To race at A4 or indeed any level, you would need to vary your training to replicate the demands of the particular races in question.

A simple thing to bear in mind is how you are going to accelerate for 6-10 seconds out of a corner (there are corners/junctions on every single race) if most of your cycling training involves going up and down hills repeatedly (there isn't a race in Ireland with the profile of your above training spin)

Generally if you want to succeed, you will. Give it a go whatever you do. Ditch the notion that you are Nairo Quintana and instead think logically about what you need to do to race with your peers in a fast paced bunch on Irish roads.

As mentioned above the only regret will be on not trying.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

To race at A4 or indeed any level, you would need to vary your training to replicate the demands of the particular races in question.

A simple thing to bear in mind is how you are going to accelerate for 6-10 seconds out of a corner (there are corners/junctions on every single race) if most of your cycling training involves going up and down hills repeatedly (there isn't a race in Ireland with the profile of your above training spin)

Generally if you want to succeed, you will. Give it a go whatever you do. Ditch the notion that you are Nairo Quintana and instead think logically about what you need to do to race with your peers in a fast paced bunch on Irish roads.

As mentioned above the only regret will be on not trying.

Good advice. no notions here, trust me!
What kind of distance/profile is a typical race?

Koobcam

Not sure if you are a member of a club, but joining a club and taking part in local club league races might be a good way to start racing-depends on whether or not this is an option open to you. The league races are a good way to learn some racing skills (positioning in the bunch, cornering, riding in a paceline, covering moves, etc, etc). You might as well give the A4 a go anyway, and if you're planning on racing next season, there are still plenty of sportives on the calendar, which are good for practising riding in a bunch.

JK.BMC

terrydel wrote: »

Good advice. no notions here, trust me!
What kind of distance/profile is a typical race?

A4 open race = 50-80km approx; mixed terrain.

If you can't a)sprint b)ride close to others c)put out strong 3-5 minute efforts, you are unlikely to survive in a bunch. Lots of super 'climbers' on strava, for example, are nowhere to be seen in real races.

But if you can manage b) above, then you should be able to get started at some level.

tuxy

I also want to race a4 next year, here's my plan.
Join a club that is known to encourages its members to race. Go on as many club spins as I can over the winter along with some solo spins to get my base kilometers in. Race in some club leagues. Once I have this done I should have a very good idea of what's required before entering my first a4 race.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

A4 open race = 50-80km approx; mixed terrain.

If you can't a)sprint b)ride close to others c)put out strong 3-5 minute efforts, you are unlikely to survive in a bunch. Lots of super 'climbers' on strava, for example, are nowhere to be seen in real races.

But if you can manage b) above, then you should be able to get started at some level.

I wouldn't be aiming to win, just not make a show of myself.
I think training for short bursts would be no problem, just requires actually doing it really.
I'd see myself as comfortable at speed and close to others, obviously I'm no expert but I'm used to speed and would have good reactions as I've driven bikes for years, so not intimidated by it at all.

outfox

terrydel wrote: »

I wouldn't be aiming to win, just not make a show of myself.

Riders get spat out the back in every race, at various stages of the course. So you wont make a show of yourself. Most spitting out happens on climbs or ramps, so if you're a good climber as you say, you'll be grand. More important to hold your line in the bunch, for as long as you're in it.

dahat

The itch to try A4 next season is strong within me but i know i wont be able to give it a proper lash due to a job change, losing my shift hours unfortunately.

I think you know deep down if you are aiming too high so I'd give it a try as you sound like you are pretty sure you are somewhat capable if holding your own.

terrydel

dahat wrote: »

The itch to try A4 next season is strong within me but i know i wont be able to give it a proper lash due to a job change, losing my shift hours unfortunately.

I think you know deep down if you are aiming too high so I'd give it a try as you sound like you are pretty sure you are somewhat capable if holding your own.

Yeah, thats true. I will know after a race or two anyway!
What kinda age groups does it generally cover? Im mid 30s but would consider myself 'young' for my age (who feckin doesnt?!)

Hungrycol

Years ago I raced in a Club League and loved it. Tried my hand at A4 and liked it a lot less. Maybe it's changed but there were a lot of woobly novice racers that I was just too uncomfortable with, that and negative riding frustrated the hell out of me. Maybe I just got older and grumpier .

Work circumstances changed and I gave it all up. Circumstances and re-changed and I hope to try it again next year, back to the beginning for me.

My advice, join a club and race in their Club League. Get all your CI licences in order for you when do A4. Keep your line and take your turn. Oh and expect not to sleep the night of your first race, your mind will be buzzing for ages after.

man_no_plan

Great question there op, I'm similar to you in age weight and height and was thinking of maybe racing a bit next year too.

I guess its like your first day at school or first day in a new job. Never know unless you try.

The only thing for me is getting out training. My speed is far from consistent and far from fast. I tried with a club a couple of years back but they weren't very tolerant of a beginner so I just went my own way.

Bike wise, what would be a minimum?

tuxy

I'd imagine any road bike that's fully functional will do. I think my 2009 allez with fulcrum 5 wheels and upgraded groupset(105 5800) will be just fine. I doubt spending thousands on a bike will make much odds to at a4 level.

JK.BMC

tuxy wrote: »

I'd imagine any road bike that's fully functional will do. I think my 2009 allez with fulcrum 5 wheels and upgraded groupset(105 5800) will be just fine. I doubt spending thousands on a bike will make much odds to at a4 level.

You are quite right assuming the bike is fully tuned up etc. One bad bump and a Specialized Venge can end up in a heap. Yes, there are lads in A4 riding bikes worth more than the car they arrive in.

tuxy

I drive a 97 starlet, my old bike is still worth more than my car

jon1981

Out of interest, how common are bad crashes in A4 races?

Bad meaning - rider is taken out of race due to broken bones and/or bad cuts

The wife gives me the "don't you dare think about it" eyes every time I raise the idea... think she believes lads are breaking bones all over the place!

Beasty

Hungrycol wrote: »

back to the beginning for me.

I'll have a special word with the Club League Committee for you. Wouldn't want to see you dropped out of scratch and we've revamped with a former World Champion to ease you back in and give you a lead out:p

koutoubia

jon1981 wrote: »

Out of interest, how common are bad crashes in A4 races?

Bad meaning - rider is taken out of race due to broken bones and/or bad cuts
!

Not that often!
I would say between every 5 and 10 km!

terrydel

man_no_plan wrote: »

Great question there op, I'm similar to you in age weight and height and was thinking of maybe racing a bit next year too.

I guess its like your first day at school or first day in a new job. Never know unless you try.

The only thing for me is getting out training. My speed is far from consistent and far from fast. I tried with a club a couple of years back but they weren't very tolerant of a beginner so I just went my own way.

Bike wise, what would be a minimum?

Cheers mate.
Name and shame the club! I love training on my own, suits my personality and I am self motivated so dont need a club to get me out. I find a lot of the carry on of the little hitlers in clubs during sportives to be very off putting. But I guess if I want to try this, joining a club and doing some training in a group is essential.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

You are quite right assuming the bike is fully tuned up etc. One bad bump and a Specialized Venge can end up in a heap. Yes, there are lads in A4 riding bikes worth more than the car they arrive in.

Sure you see that on any Sunday spin, regularly!

jon1981

koutoubia wrote: »

Not that often!
I would say between every 5 and 10 km!

:eek: I guess I'll take a look at track cycling so !

C3PO

I wouldn't be that concerned about your fitness - if you're not fit enough you'll get dropped .... End of! After a few races you'll learn to hang in and judge the effort required!
I would be much more concerned about learning to ride in very close quarters with 50 or 60 other riders ... being able to slow sufficiently without jumping on the brakes ... the etiquette of riding in a big group etc. I found simple things, like getting your water bottle out and back without looking away from the road ahead difficult at first!
As a few people have suggested, a club league is probably the best place to start!

Andalucia

very few hilly races in A4, couple of long drags is best you can hope for

Invariably they end in a bunch sprint, as suggested plenty of negative racing

plenty of surges in pace, particulary out of corners

30km an h/r on a club spin really won't prepare you for this, it will give you a good base, but really need to be doing some short sharp intervals - standard gone way up past couple of years

harringtonp

lennymc wrote: »

30kph for an hour over rollingish terrain is said to be a good indicator.
There is no humiliation, only not trying it

Second this, my "base" spins are typically about 2.5 hours on rolling terrain at about 200W (a little over 2.5W/kg) and the average speed is nearly always 29-31 km/hr.

If you're comfortable riding at this basic speed and can make the required bursts of it (by training higher intensity intervals) you'll be fine

iwillhtfu

terrydel wrote: »

Solo training spins? All my training is generally very hilly, eg I'll do 40-50k tomoro evening with approx. 700m of climbing, and will look to average at least 25kmph.

No offence intended but I'm not sure I'd consider that a hilly spin tbh I'd manage more and I am utterly ****e on hills.

If you like hills though Des Hanlon could be the one for you. The only problem reading through your posts is that you may well be dropped before you reach the hills.

As others have said practice for the surges find a hill and slow almost to a stop then burst away best you can then when you're just about to keel over push a little more. Then things settle down till the next effort or you wave goodbye to the bunch.

At least that's my experience which was short lived I don't mind crashing(has happened a few times) but unfortunately it's the down time should I be seriously hurt I couldn't afford. Beasty would be a good example as to how quickly things can go south.

Beasty

jon1981 wrote: »

:eek: I guess I'll take a look at track cycling so !

I've never crashed on the track (another mod around here has mind:pac:)

Seriously though, it's an excellent discipline to acquire the basics as, unlike road racing, accreditation is required

On the more general point about crashing in A4 races, it does seem that early season is a lot riskier than later on during the year. I put that down to larger fields, more newbies, and also a few triathletes (who use racing early season for their own training, but their own experience of racing in bunches can often be quite limited. They are often very strong increasing the risks as things heat up towards the end of a race)

wanderer 22

iwillhtfu wrote: »

No offence intended but I'm not sure I'd consider that a hilly spin tbh I'd manage more and I am utterly ****e on hills.

Bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' I guess ,but I would say most people would consider 700m over 40km a hilly spin.

De Bhál

colm18 wrote: »

Bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' I guess ,but I would say most people would consider 700m over 40km a hilly spin.

Definitely

terrydel

iwillhtfu wrote: »

No offence intended but I'm not sure I'd consider that a hilly spin tbh I'd manage more and I am utterly ****e on hills.

If you like hills though Des Hanlon could be the one for you. The only problem reading through your posts is that you may well be dropped before you reach the hills.

As others have said practice for the surges find a hill and slow almost to a stop then burst away best you can then when you're just about to keel over push a little more. Then things settle down till the next effort or you wave goodbye to the bunch.

At least that's my experience which was short lived I don't mind crashing(has happened a few times) but unfortunately it's the down time should I be seriously hurt I couldn't afford. Beasty would be a good example as to how quickly things can go south.

Thats an evening spin after work i was referring to mate. Long spin at a weekend would be double that in terms of climbing, at least. Can only get out for 2 hours or so in the evening. Unless I retire!

JK.BMC

terrydel wrote: »

Thats an evening spin after work i was referring to mate. Long spin at a weekend would be double that in terms of climbing, at least. Can only get out for 2 hours or so in the evening. Unless I retire!

All the chat about climbing metres and whatnot is interesting, but fairly irrelevant if the topic is A4 racing.
If you have 2 hours in an evening, there are numerous intervals at various intensities (how long a piece of string? etc) that you can do to prepare for racing. It might be boring, but along with good bike skills, fairly essential to be ready to race.
Club league racing is without doubt the way to get started

iwillhtfu

colm18 wrote: »

Bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' I guess ,but I would say most people would consider 700m over 40km a hilly spin.

There was I thinking I avoided all the hills. I'm surprised most would think it hilly. Sure not to worry.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

All the chat about climbing metres and whatnot is interesting, but fairly irrelevant if the topic is A4 racing.
If you have 2 hours in an evening, there are numerous intervals at various intensities (how long a piece of string? etc) that you can do to prepare for racing. It might be boring, but along with good bike skills, fairly essential to be ready to race.
Club league racing is without doubt the way to get started

To be honest, before I started this thread, club racing never even occured to me! I barely knew it existed. But it does seem to be the way to go for me to get started.
Cheers to all for the advice.

Lusk_Doyle

terrydel wrote: »

To be honest, before I started this thread, club racing never even occured to me! I barely knew it existed. But it does seem to be the way to go for me to get started.
Cheers to all for the advice.

If you consider yourself a climber due to your "small" size then be prepared to be amazed at lads much bigger than you absolutely belting up the climbs. Amature A4 racing is much much less about body type and more about pure power and ability to maintain repeated short sharp efforts.

Wishbone Ash

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There was I thinking I avoided all the hills. I'm surprised most would think it hilly. Sure not to worry.

700m over 40k is (pro-rata) 1.5 times the climbing on the WW200 and most wound consider the WW200 to be a hilly ride.

lennymc

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

700m over 40k is (pro-rata) 1.5 times the climbing on the WW200 and most wound consider the WW200 to be a hilly ride.

if you do it the day after the evil 200 it feels flat!!

ht9zni1gs28crp

It is negative, just a 50k dash chasing everything down that moves and he who hides well, and gets lucky with the wheel they are following will garner points....

A4 these days are hitting some high averages, for eg on Sunday just gone in Kilmessan we avg'd 40kph for the 54km.

Taxuser1

think the poster will benefit from getting into a club group which is race focused from October onwards. Six months of training with club mates around a similiar level (A4 and upwards) and it will be fairly evident if there is a racing body and brain in there or not by next summer. club racing then just to make sure.

don't know where you're based but our club has one of the best set ups for introduction to racing. feel free to pm and i'll give you more information.

CramCycle

terrydel wrote: »

To be honest, before I started this thread, club racing never even occured to me! I barely knew it existed. But it does seem to be the way to go for me to get started.
Cheers to all for the advice.

I would definitely go for joining a club, getting out on a few winter spins with the club to pick up tips. Club leagues tend to be far better value in regards cost per race. You will be in a group that gets to know you and will call you out alot quicker because the basis of most club leagues was originally to prepare you for open races. A few weeks in your club league with club mates will bring you up quicker than random A4 races if you get dropped.

Where are you based?

smurphy29

All the advice here is spot on; join a club, focus less on climbing speed and more on focussed intervals and flat speed.

The advice re: club racing before doing an open race is great in theory but difficult in practice. All club leagues are summer affairs, running on midweek nights after the clocks go forwards. All the best races - and indeed, the hardest and hilliest races (no, they're not all flat) - such as the Des, the Nenagh classic, the Cycleways Cup, Newbridge GP, Boyne GP, Mick Lally etc. are in the early part of the season between March and May. So if you're taking out an open racing licence for €125 it's hard to resist getting to an open race before the summer.

You will hear lots of people tell you how terrible and dangerous A4 racing is but it's not that bad. I've been in more crashes in A3 than I ever did in A4. This 61yr old put it well: “A4 racing is not dangerous as some people make out. There is some snobbery involved – every category looks down on the ones below. If you crash on the Rás you are a warrior but if you crash in A4 racing you are an idiot.” http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/how-this-man-won-his-first-ever-race-at-the-age-of-61-years/

Tigerandahalf

I have never raced and am not overly inclined to.

With young kids at home the possibility of being out of action for 6-8 weeks with a broken collarbone or damaged ribs just wouldn't work.

If you are in a job that can allow for that or will pay you for the time off it is not so bad.

The club league would probably be a good option as the groups would be smaller and much safer I would imagine.

I am actually very surprised at the speeds quoted for A4. 40kmhr for A4? The guys in Tour de France average about 50 don't they? Granted they go a lot further.

I would imagine to get anywhere near those speeds you would have to be on the bike 3/4 times a week and in winter endure the boredom of the turbo bike.

Saying all that I can see the attraction - hard to beat racing against others.

Taxuser1

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I have never raced and am not overly inclined to.

With young kids at home the possibility of being out of action for 6-8 weeks with a broken collarbone or damaged ribs just wouldn't work.

If you are in a job that can allow for that or will pay you for the time off it is not so bad.

The club league would probably be a good option as the groups would be smaller and much safer I would imagine.

I am actually very surprised at the speeds quoted for A4. 40kmhr for A4? The guys in Tour de France average about 50 don't they? Granted they go a lot further.

I would imagine to get anywhere near those speeds you would have to be on the bike 3/4 times a week and in winter endure the boredom of the turbo bike.

Saying all that I can see the attraction - hard to beat racing against others.

you could crash as easily in a sportive or on your own. even getting the leg over using the turbo can sometimes be challenging

as my mother used say. stay in by the wall and mind the buses.

C3PO

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would imagine to get anywhere near those speeds you would have to be on the bike 3/4 times a week and in winter endure the boredom of the turbo bike.

I would think that most people who race are riding their bikes 3/4 times a week and it is possible to ride an "actual" bike all year round in Ireland!

Tigerandahalf

Taxuser1 wrote: »

you could crash as easily in a sportive or on your own. even getting the leg over using the turbo can sometimes be challenging

as my mother used say. stay in by the wall and mind the buses.

Ah a race is a lot more dangerous with close proximity of riders to each other and all looking to get through a gap. Plus riding a hell of a lot faster.

I have never felt unsafe on a sportive but in club spins it is easy to be brought down and often it won't be your fault as you are grouped a lot closer and close to the wheel in front.

Each to their own though.

Tigerandahalf

C3PO wrote: »

I would think that most people who race are riding their bikes 3/4 times a week and it is possible to ride an "actual" bike all year round in Ireland!

That is a big commitment though especially with dark winter nights. You would have to be getting out on both weekend days plus I would imagine nights on the turbo.

C3PO

Taxuser1 wrote: »

you could crash as easily in a sportive or on your own .....

Oh no you couldn't!!

Irish Raven

smurphy29 wrote:

You will hear lots of people tell you how terrible and dangerous A4 racing is but it's not that bad. I've been in more crashes in A3 than I ever did in A4. This 61yr old put it well: “A4 racing is not dangerous as some people make out. There is some snobbery involved – every category looks down on the ones below. If you crash on the Rás you are a warrior but if you crash in A4 racing you are an idiot.â€

Great point there.....ive raced from a4 to a1/2 races over the past year, and ive seen the same level of craziness in all categories!! One idiot, who is watching too much eurosport is all it takes, doesnt matter his ability!!

Give the racing a lash....why wait till next year....try one before the season finishes, you will know where you have to work on over the winter then!! You wont regret it!!

smurphy29

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I am actually very surprised at the speeds quoted for A4. 40kmhr for A4? The guys in Tour de France average about 50 don't they? Granted they go a lot further.

In actual fact the average speeds in the TdeF wouldn't be much higher than 40kph. Obviously they go a lot further, but that's only the half of it; it's the style of racing that is so different. If you watch the formulaic sprint stages, they always follow the same pattern; a break of mediocre riders gets a gap of 8 minutes before it's brought back in the last hour. This allows the bunch to take it easy for most of the race. The average speed might be 42kph but the only hard bits were the first 30 minutes, when riders fought to get in the break and the last hour when the chase began. But the speed during that first and last section will be horrendous.

The main point being average speeds are ultimately meaningless. There's a phrase in cycling 'when the hammer comes down...' and that's what it's all about. Bike races change pace all the time. 80% of the race will be easy, but it's the hard 20%, going up a tough hill, fighting for position in the last 10k, bringing back a break, getting into the break and cementing a gap, that causes the difficulty. The further you go up through the grades, the longer and harder the 'hard bits' become. Happily, for riders looking to start in A4, the speeds can be quite steady; few breaks get meaningful gaps up the road, riders tend to pull the bunch along at a fast, but surprisingly manageable steady pace.