Cork, Limerick, Galway Motorway

Bass Reeves

With all the issue regarding Dublin regarding size it has nearly 1/3 of the country's population. This has created a magnet where by it gets bigger and bigger population wise and we are struggling to service it with housing. This is exasperated by literally all motorways leading to Dublin. It is nearly as fast to get to Dublin from Limerick that to either Cork or Galway. This was again exasperated by the stupidity of the western rail corridor where by it is still as faster to get from Cork to Galway by road rather than by train.

Intercity trains are a dead duck regarding transport in Ireland. However a Motorway from Cork to Limerick and onto Galway (50% complete) would provide a population counter on the westeren side of the counter to counter the magnetic draw of Dublin for population, business and jobs. It would also be serviced by a central Airport Shannon that could provide fights to the US and Europe and would be within an hour of Cork and Galway if a motorway was present.

The Cork, Limerick and Galway axis would also be easy to support population wise with major towns like Fermoy, Mallow, Ennis, Nenagh Charlesville and Gort all with access via motor way if the new motorway was build. As well other area's would benefit. At present Middleton and Youghal are serviced by either dual carrigeway or good single carrigeway to Cork The road from Tralee to Limerick most of which is nearly a high class singe carrigeway with pland for the Limeric Foynes road via Rathekeal this would make Kerry very acessible to Limerick. Then you have again a good single carrigeway from virtually Charlestown to Galway.

If the Government want to create a counterbalance to Dublin is this motorway the main infrastructure priority in the next few years.

savagethegoat

we know

theskeptic

If / when such a motorway is built, would Limerick not be the natural centre? In particular would this see the demise of Cork Airport in favour of Shannon Airport? One problem with defining a region as "not Dublin" is that its constituent elements may not be happy bedfellows; with each wanting to be the centre of that new linked up region.

Del.Monte

Bass Reeves wrote: »

With all the issue regarding Dublin regarding size it has nearly 1/3 of the country's population. This has created a magnet where by it gets bigger and bigger population wise and we are struggling to service it with housing. This is exasperated by literally all motorways leading to Dublin. It is nearly as fast to get to Dublin from Limerick that to either Cork or Galway. This was again exasperated by the stupidity of the western rail corridor where by it is still as faster to get from Cork to Galway by road rather than by train.

Intercity trains are a dead duck regarding transport in Ireland. However a Motorway from Cork to Limerick and onto Galway (50% complete) would provide a population counter on the westeren side of the counter to counter the magnetic draw of Dublin for population, business and jobs. It would also be serviced by a central Airport Shannon that could provide fights to the US and Europe and would be within an hour of Cork and Galway if a motorway was present.

The Cork, Limerick and Galway axis would also be easy to support population wise with major towns like Fermoy, Mallow, Ennis, Nenagh Charlesville and Gort all with access via motor way if the new motorway was build. As well other area's would benefit. At present Middleton and Youghal are serviced by either dual carrigeway or good single carrigeway to Cork The road from Tralee to Limerick most of which is nearly a high class singe carrigeway with pland for the Limeric Foynes road via Rathekeal this would make Kerry very acessible to Limerick. Then you have again a good single carrigeway from virtually Charlestown to Galway.

If the Government want to create a counterbalance to Dublin is this motorway the main infrastructure priority in the next few years.

Why is Inter-City rail travel a dead duck? According to IE's 2014 Annual Report http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2014_1.pdf there has been an increase in traffic and I believe last year also saw an increase.

How do you think Ireland is going to meet its carbon emissions targets if we continue our obsession with 1950s (US Style) road based transport solutions? http://www.epa.ie/climate/communicatingclimatescience/whatisclimatechange/whatareirelandsgreenhousegasemissionslike/

markpb

Bass Reeves wrote:

we are struggling to service it with housing.

Struggling would suggest that we have tried. The truth of the matter is that we have not tried.

elastico

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why is Inter-City rail travel a dead duck? According to IE's 2014 Annual Report http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2014_1.pdf there has been an increase in traffic and I believe last year also saw an increase.

How do you think Ireland is going to meet its carbon emissions targets if we continue our obsession with 1950s (US Style) road based transport solutions? http://www.epa.ie/climate/communicatingclimatescience/whatisclimatechange/whatareirelandsgreenhousegasemissionslike/

Take out oap's, students and cheap Internet fares then what's left in terms of paying passengers?

The railway survives on subsidies, intercity rail in Ireland is largely an out of date concept.

Markcheese

Unless you plan on ripping up the current motorway system and ditch dublin airport then forget trying to rebalance the country...
Our largest city/province, happens to be the centre of our transport network,have out largest airport, largest port... centre of government ect ect.
Basically you need a meteor or global warming/sea level rise to rebalance the country..

savagethegoat

Markcheese wrote: »

Unless you plan on ripping up the current motorway system and ditch dublin airport then forget trying to rebalance the country...
Our largest city/province, happens to be the centre of our transport network,have out largest airport, largest port... centre of government ect ect.
Basically you need a meteor or global warming/sea level rise to rebalance the country..

and it's that way because that's how it works best. All you could achieve by "rebalancing the Country" would be to weaken it.

Pablo Escobar

theskeptic wrote: »

If / when such a motorway is built, would Limerick not be the natural centre? In particular would this see the demise of Cork Airport in favour of Shannon Airport? One problem with defining a region as "not Dublin" is that its constituent elements may not be happy bedfellows; with each wanting to be the centre of that new linked up region.

Limerick would be the geographical centre, but Cork has 3 times the GDP of Limerick and a metro population of over 400,000. That'd be quite a leap. Also, on the point about airports, Cork, despite bodies doing their best to derail it, it still handles more passengers than Shannon.

marno21

You're preaching to the converted here buddy.

A motorway upgrade to the existing N20 is badly needed with about 10 years, and the lack of such is severely hindering the economic development of the south west and the existing road is a downright dangerous deathtrap.

Before anyone suggests rail, the population along the corridor of the N20 & N18 is too dispersed to allow rail. May as well build a massive white elephant than build a rail line.

Projects such as the M20 Cork-Limerick motorway, M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway have been proven by cost benefit analysis reports to be worth twice (and many times in the case of the M28) their initial outlay to the Irish economy.

Do you think the useless out of touch government take any notice? No. Let's build a motorway in Wexford to get votes.

See: Metro North, DART Underground, M20, N21/N69 threads for more of this discussion in the Infrastructure forum/Roads subforum

Carawaystick

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why is Inter-City rail travel a dead duck? According to IE's 2014 Annual Report http://www.irishrail.ie/media/iarnrod-eireann-annual-report-2014_1.pdf there has been an increase in traffic and I believe last year also saw an increase.

How do you think Ireland is going to meet its carbon emissions targets if we continue our obsession with 1950s (US Style) road based transport solutions? ]

Look at the time it takes a train from Limerick to Galway.
Look at the time it takes a coach.

Look at the time it takes a train from Limerick to Cork.
Look at the time it takes a coach.

Road improvements will not reduce the train times.

Look at the time it takes to get to Galway from Dublin city centre.
Look at the time it takes by coach.

cgcsb

Bass Reeves wrote: »

With all the issue regarding Dublin regarding size it has nearly 1/3 of the country's population. This has created a magnet where by it gets bigger and bigger population wise and we are struggling to service it with housing. This is exasperated by literally all motorways leading to Dublin. It is nearly as fast to get to Dublin from Limerick that to either Cork or Galway. This was again exasperated by the stupidity of the western rail corridor where by it is still as faster to get from Cork to Galway by road rather than by train.

Intercity trains are a dead duck regarding transport in Ireland. However a Motorway from Cork to Limerick and onto Galway (50% complete) would provide a population counter on the westeren side of the counter to counter the magnetic draw of Dublin for population, business and jobs. It would also be serviced by a central Airport Shannon that could provide fights to the US and Europe and would be within an hour of Cork and Galway if a motorway was present.

The Cork, Limerick and Galway axis would also be easy to support population wise with major towns like Fermoy, Mallow, Ennis, Nenagh Charlesville and Gort all with access via motor way if the new motorway was build. As well other area's would benefit. At present Middleton and Youghal are serviced by either dual carrigeway or good single carrigeway to Cork The road from Tralee to Limerick most of which is nearly a high class singe carrigeway with pland for the Limeric Foynes road via Rathekeal this would make Kerry very acessible to Limerick. Then you have again a good single carrigeway from virtually Charlestown to Galway.

If the Government want to create a counterbalance to Dublin is this motorway the main infrastructure priority in the next few years.

The only issues I would have with the above is:

a)Intercity rail has shown to be very popular in Ireland, with most routes offering a very fast and efficient service. Dublin-Cork for example has retained about half of the market share and the speeds offered here beat the car. You may be referring to the Ennis-Athenry debacle which was a poorly designed political stunt.

b)Dublin is not overcrowded, it is not Tokyo, we haven't actually tried to provide significant housing in the capital. In fact the government prevents homes from being built. For example, if I'm a developer and I have a small plot of land in the City Centre, first of all I can't build higher than 4 floors because of 'heritage'. I have to put in an underground car park for all the carless households that will live here and then 40% of my construction costs will go on taxation, therefore I will not build, the government has stopped me from doing so. Dublin has plenty more scope for densifying it's core, in fact the entire population of the Island of Ireland could comfortably reside within the M50 if we had a mind to do so.

cgcsb

elastico wrote: »

Take out oap's, students and cheap Internet fares then what's left in terms of paying passengers?

The railway survives on subsidies, intercity rail in Ireland is largely an out of date concept.

Incorrect, Irish Rail's deficit is next to nothing, it more-less breaks even. The motorway network on the other hand costs billions in maintenance and toll subsidies, never mind the enormous cost of motorway construction. There hasn't been a new railway built in this state....ever, but we've built 1100km of Motorway.

savagethegoat

Irish Rail receive a massive subsidy in effect because of the free rail travel doled out to pensioners. Take that away and it isn't sustainable, they wouldn't be travelling but for the free travel scheme.

cgcsb

savagethegoat wrote: »

Irish Rail receive a massive subsidy in effect because of the free rail travel doled out to pensioners. Take that away and it isn't sustainable, they wouldn't be travelling but for the free travel scheme.

?? they would be travelling on the bus surely if there were no trains? It is of course sustainable don't be silly. Half of Dublin-Cork journeys are made by rail. Irish Rail was only down a mere €14m per anum in 2012.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Look at the time it takes a train from
Look at the time it takes a train from Limerick to Cork.
Look at the time it takes a coach.

Train varies between 1hour35 and 2 hours, coaches all take betwenn 1hour45 and 2 hours.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Look at the time it takes to get to Galway from Dublin city centre.
Look at the time it takes by coach.

Approximately the same time, 2.5 hours.

I notice you've picked the slowest intercity routes on Irish Rail's network to make your case, but really the case your making is for a modest improvement to rail infrastructure on those lines.

Markcheese

savagethegoat wrote:

and it's that way because that's how it works best. All you could achieve by "rebalancing the Country" would be to weaken it.

Personally i'd disagree with you (centering everything on dublin,skews everything in dublins not irelands favour),but it's too late to change whats been done.
Rebalancing the country would involve hubbing the motorway system off somewhere like athlone and relocating dublin airport to athlone area also... aint going to happen..

markpb

Markcheese wrote: »

Rebalancing the country would involve hubbing the motorway system off somewhere like athlone and relocating dublin airport to athlone area also... aint going to happen..

Building motorways and airports away from where people live and instead putting them where you'd like people to live can be done in two ways: penalise Dublin by depriving it of infrastructure or doubling up on infrastructure by building it twice.

Markcheese wrote: »

centering everything on dublin,skews everything in dublins not irelands favour

Skewing everything in Dublins favour definitely benefits Dublin but also benefits Ireland. The more competitive Dublin is internationally, the more money it brings in which can (and is) spent on the rest of the country.

I totally agree that other another city should be encouraged but a balance has to be found between hampering Dublin and growing elsewhere. So far, the only suggestions seem to be hampering Dublin because of some misguided notion that Athlones geographical supremacy makes it the obvious choice for it to be the second city or the notion that everywhere can grow and compete with Dublin so we can all be equally successful. We saw how that idea worked for the communists.

savagethegoat

cgcsb wrote: »

?? they would be travelling on the bus surely if there were no trains? It is of course sustainable don't be silly. Half of Dublin-Cork journeys are made by rail. Irish Rail was only down a mere €14m per anum in 2012.

Me silly? If the free travel was taken off the trains, it would also be taken off the buses.
How many of those journeys would not be made if the passengers had to pay cash for them?

If you took away the free travel, the most of those passengers wouldn't travel (by train or bus), and the service would not be viable without the dosh the Government give to cover the free travel scheme.

cgcsb

Dublin is Ireland's City, our gateway to the world, and our only significant market in many respects. Infrastructure spending should be focused there to attract more major global companies. Provincial Irish Cities should not be competing with Dublin for inward investment. Dublin is in competition with Amsterdam, Copenhagen and now London to secure more business, those other cities are bringing fantastic local and international transport connections to the table.

We're too busy bypassing the New-Ross Mega City to Connect the Waterford Megalopolis with south Wexford with one of the world's most elaborate cable stay bridges.

Jamie2k9

cgcsb wrote: »

Incorrect, Irish Rail's deficit is next to nothing, it more-less breaks even. The motorway network on the other hand costs billions in maintenance and toll subsidies, never mind the enormous cost of motorway construction. There hasn't been a new railway built in this state....ever, but we've built 1100km of Motorway.

Just the 150 million or so they owe, you can dress figures up but their financial station is still pretty poor.

This is exasperated by literally all motorways leading to Dublin.

They also lead in the opposite direction so you can't blame the motorway's for the prob;ems.

Intercity trains are a dead duck regarding transport in Ireland. However a Motorway from Cork to Limerick and onto Galway (50% complete) would provide a population counter on the westeren side of the counter to counter the magnetic draw of Dublin for population, business and jobs. It would also be serviced by a central Airport Shannon that could provide fights to the US and Europe and would be within an hour of Cork and Galway if a motorway was present.

Only dead because the Government prefer to spend billions after billions on new roads and rail may get a couple of million here and there.

The Cork, Limerick and Galway axis would also be easy to support population wise with major towns like Fermoy, Mallow, Ennis, Nenagh Charlesville and Gort all with access via motor way if the new motorway was build.

Most of these towns are major commuting towns to Cork/Limerick as it is and don't need a motorway to work. Towns like Mallow/Ennis have excellent public transport in terms of bus and rail to Cork/Limerick.

If / when such a motorway is built, would Limerick not be the natural centre? In particular would this see the demise of Cork Airport in favour of Shannon Airport? One problem with defining a region as "not Dublin" is that its constituent elements may not be happy bedfellows; with each wanting to be the centre of that new linked up region.

No both airports will always have a place but both will always struggle against Dublin and nothing will change that. We don't and never will have the population density to support air services to them like DUB.

Take out oap's, students and cheap Internet fares then what's left in terms of paying passengers?

The railway survives on subsidies, intercity rail in Ireland is largely an out of date concept.

So does every single motorway, motor tax will never cover the costs of our roads. Railways worldwide are subsidized.

Unless you plan on ripping up the current motorway system and ditch dublin airport then forget trying to rebalance the country...
Our largest city/province, happens to be the centre of our transport network,have out largest airport, largest port... centre of government ect ect.
Basically you need a meteor or global warming/sea level rise to rebalance the country..

Nobody expect a balanced economy but there are steps that can reduce the dependency. The capital region will ways be above the rest.

If / when such a motorway is built, would Limerick not be the natural centre? In particular would this see the demise of Cork Airport in favour of Shannon Airport? One problem with defining a region as "not Dublin" is that its constituent elements may not be happy bedfellows; with each wanting to be the centre of that new linked up region.

Are you just basing that on map location between Cork/Galway. If anything Cork/Galway will be more important than Limerick.

The M6 route is the prefect example of the benefits of a motorway corridor where it's used to it's true potential. You have lots of trafic commuting between Athlone-Galway and Athlone-Dublin.

Bray Head

Such a project should only be countenanced if it goes all the way to Letterkenny;)

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

Before anyone suggests rail, the population along the corridor of the N20 & N18 is too dispersed to allow rail.

i'm sure 1 serving simply cork, limerick, and galway would get very reasonable patronage if built on a good alinement and to a decent speed and was attractive to users. your correct in that places inbetween may have to be left out.

marno21 wrote: »

May as well build a massive white elephant than build a rail line.

and it's that mentality that will have the powers that be see "more roads begorra" as an answer to everything.

marno21 wrote: »

Do you think the useless out of touch government take any notice? No. Let's build a motorway in Wexford to get votes.

well they won't be getting votes as nobody seems to want it.

end of the road

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Intercity trains are a dead duck regarding transport in Ireland.

absolute rubbish. intercity trains have a huge part to play in ireland, however it will take government policy changing from "more roads begorra" along with changing attitudes toards such transport where existing. this will include targeted investment in the current network insuring it goes on the infrastructure, and possibly opening a couple of lines around dublin and maybe cork with incentives to usage and disincentives to use the competing road such as toals. of course this would mean having to see rail as an asset rather then a burdin. and an asset it is

elastico wrote: »

Take out oap's, students and cheap Internet fares then what's left in terms of paying passengers?

The railway survives on subsidies, intercity rail in Ireland is largely an out of date concept.

most railways survive mostly because of subsidy. some of us don't have an issue with that, because we recognise it as an asset rather then a burdin. it's only ireland now who seems to have the 1960s mentality toards rail still, and it's absolutely laughable. intercity rail is as far from an out of date concept as it can get, it's not just OAPS students and free travel users using it. more roads begorra is expensive and not a long term solution to all of our transport needs. it's part of it but not all of it.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Look at the time it takes a train from Limerick to Galway.
Look at the time it takes a coach.

Look at the time it takes a train from Limerick to Cork.
Look at the time it takes a coach.

Road improvements will not reduce the train times.

Look at the time it takes to get to Galway from Dublin city centre.
Look at the time it takes by coach.

not really relevant. limerick galway, built on an old alinement that isn't fit for purpose. cork to limerick requires a reversal at limerick junction. the journey from galway city centre will depend on where you wish to go. finishing the krp and doubling athlone portarlington and even re-doubling the line to galway in full could see the coach being left for dust. so i'm afraid the coach doesn't mean intercity rail is a dead duck, it means that proper targeted investment needed and needs to be put toards the infrastructure. rail improvements will reduce train times if targeted and done right.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

Train varies between 1hour35 and 2 hours, coaches all take betwenn 1hour45 and 2 hours.

Limerick to Cork coach times on an awful road, that should be motorway, reducing the coach time when it's built.

cgcsb wrote: »

Approximately the same time, 2.5 hours.

Are you counting the extra time to get to Dublin city centre from Heuston, where the Coaches serve?

cgcsb wrote: »

I notice you've picked the slowest intercity routes on Irish Rail's network to make your case, but really the case your making is for a modest improvement to rail infrastructure on those lines.

I notice you've no rebuttal for the Limerick/Galway intercity train farce. Modest improvements will never fix that black hole.

end of the road

Carawaystick wrote: »

Limerick to Cork coach times on an awful road, that should be motorway, reducing the coach time when it's built.

not by much. and even then most will be taking the car over the coach.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Are you counting the extra time to get to Dublin city centre from Heuston, where the Coaches serve?

i shouldn't think so, his timings sound about right.

Carawaystick wrote: »

I notice you've no rebuttal for the Limerick/Galway intercity train farce. Modest improvements will never fix that black hole.

the wrc is no rebuttal for anything to do with the rest of the rail network dispite how some use it to target the rail network as a whole.

Grandeeod

Its a small country at the back door of Europe. Sometimes I think a lot of you forget how important and influential that is. There's a reason the east coast is ahead.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Are you counting the extra time to get to Dublin city centre from Heuston, where the Coaches serve?

Yes

Carawaystick wrote: »

I notice you've no rebuttal for the Limerick/Galway intercity train farce. Modest improvements will never fix that black hole.

That's indefensible, the route should never have been built on that alignment. If the state was determined to introduce better inter-regional rail services a slightly more expensive, direct route should have been chosen, the current route was the cheapest capital spend option with the most useless result.

cgcsb

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its a small country at the back door of Europe. Sometimes I think a lot of you forget how important and influential that is. There's a reason the east coast is ahead.

Exactly, you don't see Danes trying to 'counter balance' Copenhagen, acknowledging that Copenhagen is their only significant City, gateway to the world and market of significant size. It's their national cash cow, so they'll invest in keeping the services there world class. What is the point in trying to build a 'counter balance' in a country where no town is more than 3 hours travel from the centre of the capital.

ongarboy

markpb wrote: »

So far, the only suggestions seem to be hampering Dublin because of some misguided notion that Athlones geographical supremacy makes it the obvious choice for it to be the second city or the notion that everywhere can grow and compete with Dublin so we can all be equally successful. We saw how that idea worked for the communists.

Never mind the Communists. The pathetic Spatial Strategy from about 10 years ago tried to endorse that madness where our country of under 4 million people at the time was somehow deemed worthy of 50 or so spatial critical mass hubs (ie every small town that had a mouthy TD got hub status). Of course it failed massively and cost the taxpayers millions....

Bass Reeves

First on rail in Ireland we lack the population density outside of Dublin to support train as a method of transport. The truth is if you were going to Dublin tomorrow morning the train is only an option if you are going to the city center. If you wish to travel elsewhere in Dublin it is generally Bus or car. This is proven by the multiple Bus operators that provide 24 hour bust service to Dublin Airport from Cork, Limerick and Galway and the many people who travel to different parts of Dublin ever day by car.

Neither is this about moving infrastructure from Dublin it is about providing a piece of infrastructure to allow the development of a large part of the country. It amazing to consider that at present you have better roads between major towns compared to the roads servicing our major cities. The stupidity of the spatial strategy of the noughties where it tried to serve political interests of giving something to everyone is totally different to building a piece of infrastructure that will enhance existing population centers and existing infrastructure.

You have a crazy situtation at present where the roads from west Cork to Cork City, from Kerry to Limerick and from Mayo to Galway are better roads ( considering the traffic they carry) than the roads between these cities.