Disadvantages of mules

Siamsa Sessions

We've something of a blank canvas at home for the type of sheep to get into.

One of the options I've been looking at is mules and so far the only disadvantages I can make out are:

* Hard-ish to finish their lambs
* Expensive to buy as ewe lambs/hoggets
* Can be found of climbing ditches
* Difficult to breed as ewe lambs as they're not big enough for ram in mid-Oct
* Hard to source good ones (we're in south-east)

Am I missing loads or are these the main bad points?

Cran

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

We've something of a blank canvas at home for the type of sheep to get into.

One of the options I've been looking at is mules and so far the only disadvantages I can make out are:

* Hard-ish to finish their lambs
* Expensive to buy as ewe lambs/hoggets
* Can be found of climbing ditches
* Difficult to breed as ewe lambs as they're not big enough for ram in mid-Oct
* Hard to source good ones (we're in south-east)

Am I missing loads or are these the main bad points?

Climb ditches, more like tear apart unless well fenced.
Disagree with ewe lamb point if you buy correctly
Some just put to much into lamb and never recover I find, so culling rate can be higher end
Mouths don't last as well as other breeds
Besides that agree with rest

Siamsa Sessions

Thanks Cran.

The oul ditch thing could be a deal-breaker. Still have a few to fence properly and working off-farm means I can't react quickly if I get a phone call to say, "They're out (again)"

weatherbyfoxer

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

We've something of a blank canvas at home for the type of sheep to get into.

One of the options I've been looking at is mules and so far the only disadvantages I can make out are:

* Hard-ish to finish their lambs
* Expensive to buy as ewe lambs/hoggets
* Can be found of climbing ditches
* Difficult to breed as ewe lambs as they're not big enough for ram in mid-Oct
* Hard to source good ones (we're in south-east)

Am I missing loads or are these the main bad points?

Every breed has its flaws...have a flock of belclares here with a few mules thrown in....i won't be bothering with belclares any more..find their lambs fly up 38-40kg but getting them to 45kg this time of year is hard...the mule lamb is slower from the start but seem to getting to the higher weight more consistently than the belclare...

the only thing going for the belclares is the the huge amount of lambs..some flocks with lots of belclare blood are scanning 2.25 and 2.30 lambs per ewe.plenty of triplets,some quads and the odd ewe carrying 5 lambs...

All down to personal choice with ewe breed..some like mules,some like belclares and lynes..

White Clover

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Every breed has its flaws...have a flock of belclares here with a few mules thrown in....i won't be bothering with belclares any more..find their lambs fly up 38-40kg but getting them to 45kg this time of year is hard...the mule lamb is slower from the start but seem to getting to the higher weight more consistently than the belclare...

the only thing going for the belclares is the the huge amount of lambs..some flocks with lots of belclare blood are scanning 2.25 and 2.30 lambs per ewe.plenty of triplets,some quads and the odd ewe carrying 5 lambs...

All down to personal choice with ewe breed..some like mules,some like belclares and lynes..

What breed ram were the belclares inlamb to?

weatherbyfoxer

White Clover wrote: »

What breed ram were the belclares inlamb to?

Suffolk ewes mated with a belclare ram are the breeding of the ewes,these are mated with a charlaois ram for finishing....as I said above great sheep till there touching 40kg

Will be buying mule hoggets this year and crossing them to Suffolk or texel rams..best ewe lambs will be kept and mated on the 1st of November 2017 to a Hampshire down ramb

stantheman1979

I've worked with the good north of England mules from the Swale ewe and found them very good. They don't last more than 5or 6 yrs and found them hungry buggers hard kept like. I'm not convinced mules from Mayo ewes would be in the same league as ones from the Swale or Perth type ewe

Future Farmer

Really?

Find the Swaledale is a solid ewe, mule is a good ewe. Mayo Horny, I wouldn't be a fan, nothing in them.

sheepfarmer92

stantheman1979 wrote: »

I've worked with the good north of England mules from the Swale ewe and found them very good. They don't last more than 5or 6 yrs and found them hungry buggers hard kept like. I'm not convinced mules from Mayo ewes would be in the same league as ones from the Swale or Perth type ewe

Your right there stan, i lambed on a farm in the scottish borders a few years ago and definitly the scotch mule is a far better sheep than mayo mule but maybe a bit more hard fed

weatherbyfoxer

Do people find the mayo mules that bad???...seem to be a lot of customers returning year after year to ballinrobe for them?

ganmo

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Do people find the mayo mules that bad???...seem to be a lot of customers returning year after year to ballinrobe for them?

must be those returning customers not wanting more competition

Future Farmer

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Do people find the mayo mules that bad???...seem to be a lot of customers returning year after year to ballinrobe for them?

Are a lot of them not off Swaledales rather than Mayo ewes though....

MayoAreMagic

Future Farmer wrote: »

Are a lot of them not off Swaledales rather than Mayo ewes though....

No. 90% would be off Mayo ewes, the majority of the rest would be off a Mayo/Lanark cross. Very few swales in general over this side.

Re the mayo mule, well I think someone summed it up there, they wouldn't be as hard fed as the swale mule, ie. they would be a bit hardier, probably a bit more long lasting (as long as the sire wasn't a bad yoke, but that applies across the board). The bottom line is you could probably keep more of them than the Swale cross, which for me is a good thing - the money is in numbers rather than the size of lambs.

orm0nd

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

No. 90% would be off Mayo ewes, the majority of the rest would be off a Mayo/Lanark cross. Very few swales in general over this side.

Re the mayo mule, well I think someone summed it up there, they wouldn't be as hard fed as the swale mule, ie. they would be a bit hardier, probably a bit more long lasting (as long as the sire wasn't a bad yoke, but that applies across the board). The bottom line is you could probably keep more of them than the Swale cross, which for me is a good thing - the money is in numbers rather than the size of lambs.

+1

Jonny303

When people talk about "mules" in Ireland, are they generally speaking about Mayo mules?

Have Tullow/Boris ewes fallen out of favour lately? They don't seem to get much of a mention, yet seem to hit big prices in marts

weatherbyfoxer

Jonny303 wrote: »

When people talk about "mules" in Ireland, are they generally speaking about Mayo mules?

Have Tullow/Boris ewes fallen out of favour lately? They don't seem to get much of a mention, yet seem to hit big prices in marts

Started in sheep 6 years ago with 50 of the borris type ewe hoggets (cheviot x Suffolk), big Hardy sheep that have good lambs crossed with a texel ram also have a good cull value too..faults I found were they are wild,hard fed,and not as prolific as the belclare,mule or Lyne ewes..

Jonny303

I presume its the cheviot that drags down the proficiency? With our Suffolks I always find we have good numbers.

weatherbyfoxer

Jonny303 wrote: »

I presume its the cheviot that drags down the proficiency? With our Suffolks I always find we have good numbers.

Yep...cheviots like horned ewes are bred for Harder conditions like hills or mountain where a very high lamb per ewe rate would convert to high mortality rate

The whole borris ewe thing can get a bit mad on the sale days with the most speckled faces reaching the highest prices while the exact same type of ewe with a grey or blackish face makes 20 maybe even €30 per head less...bit more of a beauty pageant that a breeding sale at times I reckon

ganmo

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Yep...cheviots like horned ewes are bred for Harder conditions like hills or mountain where a very high lamb per ewe rate would convert to high mortality rate

The whole borris ewe thing can get a bit mad on the sale days with the most speckled faces reaching the highest prices while the exact same type of ewe with a grey or blackish face makes 20 maybe even €30 per head less...bit more of a beauty pageant that a breeding sale at times I reckon

The last time there was a multiple breed comparison in Ireland (20 odd years ago) every cheviot had twins.

But multiples isn't seen as very benifical in the eyes of the breeders

Jonny303

ganmo wrote: »

The last time there was a multiple breed comparison in Ireland (20 odd years ago) every cheviot had twins.

But multiples isn't seen as very benifical in the eyes of the breeders

Can you explain a bit, you've lost me but sounds interesting!

ganmo

Jonny303 wrote: »

Can you explain a bit, you've lost me but sounds interesting!

frank crosby did a trial years and years ago comparing 10(could of been 20) ewes of each breed brought into lyons premating

anyway every single cheviot had twins and no other breed managed to match that lambing %

Jonny303

And here I was getting myself put off them (Cheviots) and you go throw in a fact like that!

ganmo

Jonny303 wrote: »

And here I was getting myself put off them (Cheviots) and you go throw in a fact like that!

haha my job done so

1983: in a trial at University College Dublin, Crosby showed that when bought off the hills and run on lowlands Wicklow Cheviot Ewes could have a litter size of up to 2 lambs per ewe

2000: Flanagan in Teagasc showed the Cheviot cross ewes performed equally well in intensive and extensive systems of lowland sheep production

2002: Dawson and Carson in Northern Ireland showed that Texel-sired lambs from Suffolk x Cheviot ewes had greater live-weight gains (on average 10%) than Texel-sired lambs from the other ewe crosses. This effect suggests that there is an optimum combination of breeds in a cross which affects the expression of vigour and thus determines performance. These findings have important implications for the breeding strategies of lowland flocks.

2004: Carson and co-workers in Northern Ireland found that Cheviot cross ewes mated to either Suffolk or Texel rams needed less labour at lambing than other hill cross ewes

2009: Speijers and co-workers in Northern Ireland found that lamb live weight at weaning was higher with Texel- and Cheviot- and Lleyn-sired lambs compared with Blackface- and Swaledale-sired lambs

2009: Keady and co-workers reported a very respectable 1.69 lambs reared per ewe to the ram across intensive and extensive lowland systems for Belclare x Cheviot ewes.

http://www.wicklowsheep.com/#!research/crry

Username John

Jonny303 wrote: »

And here I was getting myself put off them (Cheviots) and you go throw in a fact like that!

ganmo wrote: »

haha my job done so

Having always had suffolks here, I bought some cheviots last year.

They were nice looking sheep, but no where near as enjoyable as the suffolks to work with, purely cos they were so excitable. You would walk into a pen, and they would be climbing the walls to get away...

Now, it was an unfair comparison - as the suffolks we have would be mostly home bred, and so used to me all their lives. Plus, the cheviots were ewe lambs, so would calm down a bit with age and when they get used to me...

Am only calling it out, when you mention you had mainly suffolks as well Jonny303.

ganmo

Username John wrote: »

Having always had suffolks here, I bought some cheviots last year.

They were nice looking sheep, but no where near as enjoyable as the suffolks to work with, purely cos they were so excitable. You would walk into a pen, and they would be climbing the walls to get away...

Now, it was an unfair comparison - as the suffolks we have would be mostly home bred, and so used to me all their lives. Plus, the cheviots were ewe lambs, so would calm down a bit with age and when they get used to me...

Am only calling it out, when you mention you had mainly suffolks as well Jonny303.

theres very few i'd call placid but once they have their first lamb they quieten down a fair bit.

Jonny303

Username John wrote: »

Having always had suffolks here, I bought some cheviots last year.

They were nice looking sheep, but no where near as enjoyable as the suffolks to work with, purely cos they were so excitable. You would walk into a pen, and they would be climbing the walls to get away...

Now, it was an unfair comparison - as the suffolks we have would be mostly home bred, and so used to me all their lives. Plus, the cheviots were ewe lambs, so would calm down a bit with age and when they get used to me...

Am only calling it out, when you mention you had mainly suffolks as well Jonny303.

Really why I want them is as we are a pure bred flock, we lamb quite early and would be very lowly stocked. It means come summer, we have a real excess of grass. The plan would be to lamb these at a later time off our suffolk rams, and hopefully....produce something good for market but also to take embryo transfer down the line

stantheman1979

We run a mainly belclare and lleyn flock. Oul lad arrived back from the mart last sept with 15 big 3yo cheviot ewes. I wasnt happy but said nothing. I put them in with the B flock( ewes that had been lame once, prolapsed, lost lambs, old ewes missing a tooth or two etc) on good grass. they were dosed, minerals the works. the upshot of it was we ended up with 9 lambs outta them. A twin and 7 singles. They would run through you rather than run around you. Should rename them donkeys. One good thing they kept the dog fit HA

weatherbyfoxer

ganmo wrote: »

theres very few i'd call placid but once they have their first lamb they quieten down a fair bit.

Anyone try cross the wicklow cheviot ewes with blue leister ramb to produce mules?...plenty of cheviot ewes available in my area wonder would it be worth trying?

stantheman1979

It would improve the lambing percentage but you would have a big horse of a ewe that would be hard kept IMO

Bass Reeves

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Anyone try cross the wicklow cheviot ewes with blue leister ramb to produce mules?...plenty of cheviot ewes available in my area wonder would it be worth trying?

stantheman1979 wrote: »

It would improve the lambing percentage but you would have a big horse of a ewe that would be hard kept IMO

This was the traditional mule a Blue Faces Leicester Ram crossed to a Cheviot ewe. At the start there was a tendancy to describe any upland cross to BFL ram as a mule. However a BFL/Cheviot produced a ewe that in a lowland envoirment was capable bringing to slaughter 1.4+ lambs/ewe. The normal Suffock lamb would struggle at birth while the Mule/Suffock crosses were hardier and the mother was capable of protecting them from attack from foxes.

I had an Uncle that a pure bred BFL flock the single lambs were 70kgs+ by mid August and still a bit under finished

Jonny303

Well bought the first of my Cheviot hoggets today.

€200 a pop.

All I'll say is they're not suffolks.....shoulders pulled out of their sockets just trying to sort them!

ganmo

Jonny303 wrote: »

Well bought the first of my Cheviot hoggets today.

€200 a pop.

All I'll say is they're not suffolks.....shoulders pulled out of their sockets just trying to sort them!

I hope the suffs don't learn their bad habits

Username John

Jonny303 wrote: »

Well bought the first of my Cheviot hoggets today.

€200 a pop.

All I'll say is they're not suffolks.....shoulders pulled out of their sockets just trying to sort them!

Best if luck with em...

You should have very nice lambs from em... But they do seem to be very different to the suffolks all right

Sheep breeder

ganmo wrote: »

The last time there was a multiple breed comparison in Ireland (20 odd years ago) every cheviot had twins.

But multiples isn't seen as very benifical in the eyes of the breeders

Yes but now a days the cheviot has become inbred and pampered and does not go to the hill any more, just cross the Wicklow gap, Sally gap and glenmalure and you will see no ewe on the hill any more,
The cheviot is no longer a hill breed and with only 27 breeders is a closed shop and all buying from one and other.

ganmo

Inbreeding or line breeding ? Every breed is inbreeding of some degree

They let in a new flock 5 or 10 years back and it was a big deal.

One of the easiest way to spot sheep from the hills is a greyness colour to the wool on the neck from rubbing against burnt bushes

stantheman1979

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Yes but now a days the cheviot has become inbred and pampered and does not go to the hill any more, just cross the Wicklow gap, Sally gap and glenmalure and you will see no ewe on the hill any more,
The cheviot is no longer a hill breed and with only 27 breeders is a closed shop and all buying from one and other.

+1 On that. Never a sheep on top of glenmalure. Same few breeders so no new blood. I happened to be in one of the main breeders yard(Kiltegan area) just before a show and here was another breeder picking through his hoggs to bring to the show himself!! How can the breed develop when that is going on.:)

stantheman1979

Jonny303 wrote: »

Well bought the first of my Cheviot hoggets today.

€200 a pop.

All I'll say is they're not suffolks.....shoulders pulled out of their sockets just trying to sort them!

Expensive mistake ill say but best of luck with them