Huge variation on conveyancing costs

chancer12

Why the huge difference between practices? Just investigating the costs involved in a house move and I'm getting anything from a percentage cost to starting at 2500 + VAT. It seems ridiculous. I don't expect there will be a huge admin load involved, when I moved to my present home there were no issues re searches etc so that should be straightforward enough. Seems like a licence to print money. Anyone with knowledge of a solicitor charging a 'fair' rate for plse PM me. thanks.

Pat Mustard

chancer12 wrote: »

Why the huge difference between practices?

If you go to a main dealer to get your car maintained, it will cost you a multiple of what a one-man outfit will charge you. One has an expensive glass showroom and fresh coffee while you wait. The other just has one guy in a pair of overalls who works on your car. The main dealer may have a massive mortgage to pay and may charge accordingly.

In law firms, you have full service law firms that can offer advice on everything from online gambling to mergers and acquisitions. You also have one-man outfits that do conveyancing and probate. Firms with large overheads must charge more in order to pay the rent/mortgage. Also, people are prepared to pay these fees, according to the level and range of service that is offered.

Some solicitors take every call made by a client, even if the client telephones five times per day. Other solicitors almost ignore clients and concentrate on getting to the finish line of whatever they are doing. Different firms have different approaches and different levels of service.

Some clients want a low-cost, no-frills service. Others want a full service. It's a case of choosing what works for you. Ideally, you need somebody to recommend a solicitor to you.

chancer12

Sure, I understand the analogy but I hadn't contacted any large practices. These were 'local' solicitors who seem to have a set fee, maybe things really are 'on the up' and they don't need the work!

Claw Hammer

chancer12 wrote: »

Sure, I understand the analogy but I hadn't contacted any large practices. These were 'local' solicitors who seem to have a set fee, maybe things really are 'on the up' and they don't need the work!

Conveyancing has become more messy in recent times, with NPPR, LPT and water charges. Add in planning issues and banks being more picky. Little wonder solicitors don't want the work unless it pays.

chancer12

I have no problem paying for a service, they're professionals and you can't complete the transaction without them. However, I have issues with 'blanket' charges irregardless. Not every transaction is complicated. My understanding from colleagues is that its more boring than challenging. They work for big firms where its regarded as the 'short straw'

Pro Hoc Vice

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Conveyancing has become more messy in recent times, with NPPR, LPT and water charges. Add in planning issues and banks being more picky. Little wonder solicitors don't want the work unless it pays.

I agree many don't want the work a small practice can add huge costs to insurance once they do a house sale.

Claw Hammer

chancer12 wrote: »

I have no problem paying for a service, they're professionals and you can't complete the transaction without them. However, I have issues with 'blanket' charges irregardless. Not every transaction is complicated. My understanding from colleagues is that its more boring than challenging. They work for big firms where its regarded as the 'short straw'

You are looking for a quote. It is not known at the outset how complicated it might be. A view is taken as to what an average fee should be to allow for the fact that some are messier than others. GPs charge the same fee for a surgery visit regardless of how simple the complaint is or the exact duration of the visit. Restaurants make a different margin on different elements of a meal.
You don't want to get into a conveyance on the basis of n hourly rate only for a problem to emerge that doubles or triples the number of hours it takes.

Mr. Incognito

It's your house.

Pay cheap, get cheap service.

Closing a house sale means searches, taxes, checking legal title, exchanging contracts, drafting the deed of conveyance etc.

If you don't value it they wont value it either.

What you seem to want is amazing service and pay as little as possible.

It doesnt exist, in any profession.

intheclouds

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

It's your house.

Pay cheap, get cheap service.

Closing a house sale means searches, taxes, checking legal title, exchanging contracts, drafting the deed of conveyance etc.

If you don't value it they wont value it either.

What you seem to want is amazing service and pay as little as possible.

It doesnt exist, in any profession.

Thats a bit unfair when the OP is simply wondering why there is such variation in the quotes?

Pro Hoc Vice

intheclouds wrote: »

Thats a bit unfair when the OP is simply wondering why there is such variation in the quotes?

But it's not fare it's exactly the reason I can go to Burger King for dinner and spend less than a tenner or I can go to chapter one and including wine spend 150 plus which is better value?

Like any expences research what you want get advice from friends and family and pick who you want but cheap is not always what you really want.

chancer12

As 'Intheclouds' says, I posted querying the cost variation not seeking a 'cheap' service. If you read my 11.15 post I acknowledged it's a professional service. I also acknowledge that 'big firms' have greater overheads but my research has shown that the minimum quoted by most practices seems to be the same regardless of overheads.

nuac

Mod
ANy chance of discussion on legal issues?

Pat Mustard

chancer12 wrote: »

my research has shown that the minimum quoted by most practices seems to be the same regardless of overheads.

Can you clarify this statement in light of your original post about the huge variation in fees?

chancer12

Yes, there are solicitors who advertise a flat rate online for 950 plus vat but most of those are on the other side of the city. It just wouldn't be practical when I needed to sign so taking that as a base (albeit lost cost) rate, I rang several practices local to me and they all came in at 2500+

Pat Mustard

chancer12 wrote: »

Yes, there are solicitors who advertise a flat rate online for 950 plus vat but most of those are on the other side of the city. It just wouldn't be practical when I needed to sign so taking that as a base (albeit lost cost) rate, I rang several practices local to me and they all came in at 2500+

€950 is a cut-price rate. It's a low-cost service which is presumably also a no-frills service.

As to your question about why prices remain stable at €950, I can only suppose that there is less scope for prices to fall even lower than that, given the minimum amount of work involved in providing such a service. Even assuming a high volume of work, it may be difficult to pay the bills and keep the doors open, given such a price structure.

Claw Hammer

€950 is the professional fee only. Registration costs and other outlay have to be added on. You need to compare like with like. If you are too lazy to get on your bike to save a lot of money then it is your own fault if you pay over the odds.

chancer12

Claw Hammer wrote: »

€950 is the professional fee only. Registration costs and other outlay have to be added on. You need to compare like with like. If you are too lazy to get on your bike to save a lot of money then it is your own fault if you pay over the odds.

That's a needlessly aggressive comment. Over and out.

ohnonotgmail

Pat Mustard wrote: »

€950 is a cut-price rate. It's a low-cost service which is presumably also a no-frills service.

As to your question about why prices remain stable at €950, I can only suppose that there is less scope for prices to fall even lower than that, given the minimum amount of work involved in providing such a service. Even assuming a high volume of work, it may be difficult to pay the bills and keep the doors open, given such a price structure.

are there really solicitors working for that kind of money? i paid more than that back in the late 90's.

Pat Mustard

Mod:

intheclouds, it's not allowed to post about moderation or forum policy on the thread. It's completely off topic.

I deleted your first post along these lines but you came back and did it again. That post is now deleted too.

Please stop this now.

Pat Mustard

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are there really solicitors working for that kind of money? i paid more than that back in the late 90's.

That was a figure posted by the OP. I'm not sure.

IRAC War

chancer12 wrote: »

Yes, there are solicitors who advertise a flat rate online for 950 plus vat but most of those are on the other side of the city. It just wouldn't be practical when I needed to sign so taking that as a base (albeit lost cost) rate, I rang several practices local to me and they all came in at 2500+

Maybe not in the city of New York but in Ireland one would assume it's worth the time in taxi to save a grand. I dealt with an excellent solicitor in D5, iirc the fee was somewhere around 950+vat, outlays and sundries.

The reason for variation in price is the ol' supply and demand.

GeorgeOrwell

My mortgage broker had a deal going with firms of solicitors who specialise in conveyancing and who offer a flat-fee to clients of the broker.

It turned out that my purchase was more complicated than anyone expected - planning issues, outstanding bills, missing paperwork etc - so I was delighted to be paying a flat fee.

I was also really, really pleased to be dealing with a solicitor who was an expert in conveyancing and not just a generalist.

Like anything - if you select the cheapest offer, you might not be getting the best deal.

chancer12

Thanks all for your comments, have decided to delay the move a year or so. Will use that time to source whatever is needed to process the move.

Steve

My friend does conveyancing and has been doing it the last 20 years, she loves people who, in the past, have gone the 'cheap' route and are now looking to sort out the mess the 'celtic tiger' solicitors made.

chancer12

Steve, I would argue that paying big money doesn't always get you the best service. Obviously, if your friend is that experienced and specialises in conveyencing she would know what she's at. Equally, you could go into a large practice, pay big money and have a trainee with poor supervision do the job. anyway, I'm not going to worry about this too much in the short term.

ganmo

Pat Mustard wrote: »

€950 is a cut-price rate. It's a low-cost service which is presumably also a no-frills service.

As to your question about why prices remain stable at €950, I can only suppose that there is less scope for prices to fall even lower than that, given the minimum amount of work involved in providing such a service. Even assuming a high volume of work, it may be difficult to pay the bills and keep the doors open, given such a price structure.

What frills could one expect if they paid more?
Or rather what would the no frills entail of?

IRAC War

ganmo wrote: »

What frills could one expect if they paid more?
Or rather what would the no frills entail of?

Phone calls being answered generally. Many cut price outfits simply don't have the staff to field calls from clients. They're great if nothing goes wrong but if something has gone ary a cut price outfit is much more likely (IMHO) to advise you not to continue with the sale than sorting out the issue.

Even if nothing eventful happens you'll find a cheaper solicitor unlikely to be in a position to push things through. That said you don't have to go mad - a well recommended GP solicitor in a small practice is ideal and usually the premium you're paying is a couple of hundred quid; well, well worth it for decent service on this sort of thing.

Pat Mustard

ganmo wrote: »

What frills could one expect if they paid more?
Or rather what would the no frills entail of?

I'll try to clarify what I had meant.

When I mentioned a no-frills service, I meant this in a context of the range of services offered by the firm. Some firms offer a wide range of services. Some don't.

In the context of this thread, I think that the discussion is about a trade-off between price and quality.

Basically, if a good quality service is carried out, all relevant matters are investigated properly, the client is fully appraised of all relevant issues, and after the transaction is completed, the deed is stamped and registered. If there is a mortgage or bank charge, original deeds are handed over to the bank.

In order for matters to be investigated thoroughly, the necessary experts need to check the physical property that is being bought. In a residential property purchase, an engineer/surveyor/architect should be properly briefed by the purchaser's solicitor with maps showing property boundaries, roads, rights of way, wayleaves and other services. Also planning permissions, certificates of compliance with planning/building regs should be sent. The engineer should investigate the structure of the property in addition to the matters raised by the solicitor, which should include boundaries, services, access to the property, planning, building regs (to include fire regs where necessary), and other issues.

The engineer's report may disclose legal issues which should be resolved. These issues may include problems with planning, which may require an application for retention permission. Problems with building regs or fire regs may require remedial building work to be carried out before the property will comply with regulations and can be certified as such. Problems with maps may require a deed of rectification of boundaries to be executed and registered after the wording has been agreed. Problems with access may require deeds of grant of right of way to be procured after the relevant wording is agreed. Similarly, if pipes for cables and services pass over other private lands before they reach the public road, they may require wayleaves to be put in place, which will have to be agreed, drawn up, executed and registered.

Property taxes have to be paid up to date and in the correct tax bands. If planning contributions have not been paid up, they must be.

If the property purchase depends upon a bank loan, any of the above issues can create delays in drawing down money from the bank. Therefore, the relevant issues need to be resolved with the relevant parties as soon as possible.

It is quite likely that at least one or perhaps several of the above issues will occur. These complications cause more work and must be resolved.

If the problems are not spotted, they tend to arise at a later point.

Unpaid property taxes can be charged on the property.

If you buy a property without resolving access issues, and if the relevant landowners will not cooperate with you, you may be forced to go to court to seek an order declaring that there is a right of way of necessity. This application could cost €10,000.00 or more, with no guarantee of success.

If somebody has a right of way over the purchaser's property and if said purchaser doesn't find out about it until 6 months after the purchase transaction closes, he is going to be very unhappy.

A solicitor who provides a good quality residential conveyancing service will carry out all of the above investigations thoroughly, appraise the client of all issues and advise accordingly, stamp and register the deed and send the original title documents to the bank.

Firms which carry out a cut price service operate on the basis of low cost, high volume. They have to get through more transactions because they charge less. They cannot afford to spend the same amount of time on each file as another firm could. Therefore, I consider it less likely that they would spend the time to find and fix the issues which arise, beyond more basic queries and simple conveying of property from one party to another.

After most people complete the purchase of their property, they get a set of keys into their hands and they know little more about whether a proper job was done by their solicitor.

What you get from a quality service is peace of mind.

I don't know what you get from a cut price service. It varies, presumably.

IRAC War

Pat Mustard wrote: »

After most people complete the purchase of their property, they get a set of keys into their hands and they know little more about whether a proper job was done by their solicitor.

Until they come to sell of course and the whole cycle starts again!

intheclouds

Pat Mustard wrote: »

After most people complete the purchase of their property, they get a set of keys into their hands and they know little more about whether a proper job was done by their solicitor.

Sometimes you find out a lot later.

I was 7 years after buying my apartment when I received a letter from a firm of solicitors informing me that the solicitor who had carried out the conveyancing had been struck off and was being investigated by the law society and that they had taken over the files and discovered that the land registry bit of the conveyancing had never been done so they had completed it at no charge.

I was none the wiser til I received that letter, and probably wouldnt have discovered the issue until I went to sell.

Grolschevik

Pat Mustard wrote:

In the context of this thread, I think that the discussion is about a trade-off between price and quality.

Pat Mustard wrote:

Basically, if a good quality service is carried out, all relevant matters are investigated properly, the client is fully appraised of all relevant issues, and after the transaction is completed, the deed is stamped and registered. If there is a mortgage or bank charge, original deeds are handed over to the bank.

Pat Mustard wrote:

In order for matters to be investigated thoroughly, the necessary experts need to check the physical property that is being bought. In a residential property purchase, an engineer/surveyor/architect should be properly briefed by the purchaser's solicitor with maps showing property boundaries, roads, rights of way, wayleaves and other services. Also planning permissions, certificates of compliance with planning/building regs should be sent. The engineer should investigate the structure of the property in addition to the matters raised by the solicitor, which should include boundaries, services, access to the property, planning, building regs (to include fire regs where necessary), and other issues.

Pat Mustard wrote:

The engineer's report may disclose legal issues which should be resolved. These issues may include problems with planning, which may require an application for retention permission. Problems with building regs or fire regs may require remedial building work to be carried out before the property will comply with regulations and can be certified as such. Problems with maps may require a deed of rectification of boundaries to be executed and registered after the wording has been agreed. Problems with access may require deeds of grant of right of way to be procured after the relevant wording is agreed. Similarly, if pipes for cables and services pass over other private lands before they reach the public road, they may require wayleaves to be put in place, which will have to be agreed, drawn up, executed and registered.

Pat Mustard wrote:

Property taxes have to be paid up to date and in the correct tax bands. If planning contributions have not been paid up, they must be.

Pat Mustard wrote:

If the property purchase depends upon a bank loan, any of the above issues can create delays in drawing down money from the bank. Therefore, the relevant issues need to be resolved with the relevant parties as soon as possible.

Pat Mustard wrote:

It is quite likely that at least one or perhaps several of the above issues will occur. These complications cause more work and must be resolved.

Pat Mustard wrote:

If the problems are not spotted, they tend to arise at a later point.

Pat Mustard wrote:

Unpaid property taxes can be charged on the property.

Pat Mustard wrote:

If you buy a property without resolving access issues, and if the relevant landowners will not cooperate with you, you may be forced to go to court to seek an order declaring that there is a right of way of necessity. This application could cost €10,000.00 or more, with no guarantee of success.

Pat Mustard wrote:

If somebody has a right of way over the purchaser's property and if said purchaser doesn't find out about it until 6 months after the purchase transaction closes, he is going to be very unhappy.

Pat Mustard wrote:

A solicitor who provides a good quality residential conveyancing service will carry out all of the above investigations thoroughly, appraise the client of all issues and advise accordingly, stamp and register the deed and send the original title documents to the bank.

Pat Mustard wrote:

Firms which carry out a cut price service operate on the basis of low cost, high volume. They have to get through more transactions because they charge less. They cannot afford to spend the same amount of time on each file as another firm could. Therefore, I consider it less likely that they would spend the time to find and fix the issues which arise, beyond more basic queries and simple conveying of property from one party to another.

Pat Mustard wrote:

After most people complete the purchase of their property, they get a set of keys into their hands and they know little more about whether a proper job was done by their solicitor.

Pat, I nominate that this post or thread be elevated to a sticky based on that post!

Could call it: "Conveyancing briefly explained" or something.

Robbo

intheclouds wrote: »

Sometimes you find out a lot later.

I was 7 years after buying my apartment when I received a letter from a firm of solicitors informing me that the solicitor who had carried out the conveyancing had been struck off and was being investigated by the law society and that they had taken over the files and discovered that the land registry bit of the conveyancing had never been done so they had completed it at no charge.

I was none the wiser til I received that letter, and probably wouldnt have discovered the issue until I went to sell.

Sounds exactly like a guy who cornered the Google Adwords market a few years ago for "low cost conveyancing" type searches.

nuac

Grolschevik wrote: »

Pat, I nominate that this post or thread be elevated to a sticky based on that post!

Could call it: "Conveyancing briefly explained" or something.

I fully support this suggestion.

Too many think conveyancing is now just a matter of ticking a few boxes and that the wordprocessor and/or a trainee do all the rest.

The only addition I would suggest is ( in mortgage cases ) is that over the years the banks vary their approval letters.

During the boom anything went - couldn't get the money out fast enough.

After that I have seen approval letters extending and adding to matters to be checked or certified by the solicitor. All these have to be carefully read.