Is there a governing body for Third level colleges

balliali

Hi, is there a governing body who deal with issues for third level students.... lack of feedback, submitting assignments in Nov 2015, no feedback yet etc.. Is there any agency or governing body where these can be investigated. Have tried (more than once) to get assignment feedback, as have others... but we appear to be hitting our heads against a brick wall. Meanwhile, we are still blindly submitting assignments, not knowing whether they are of a decent standard or not....

Tom Dunne

You need to utilise the mechanisms in place within your institution first - the structure is typically Lecturer -> Course Leader -> Head of Dept. -> Dean. And yes, to answer your question, all third level institutions will have a governing body.

Have you gone up through the ranks with your concerns? Going straight to the top will get you nowhere.

balliali

We have done our best... It's a distance learning college programme so it's not as easy as going through the channels you suggest. We ring the college, firstly you get fobbed off, then you get the class rep to do so. Tutor tells you they have corrected the assignments, and have sent them to college. College tells you they are gone to the extern... that was last May... in the meantime, we are blindly submitting more stuff, not knowing if we are going about them the right way, as we have no feedback to go on.

Mind you, it appears that college is only concerned about getting the fees, and after that it's farewell and f*** you.

I also asked the same college could I leave a tutorial early one day for a family event, I was refused. Others who hadn't the courtesy to ask just got up and left for a basketball match, a wedding, and to catch a bus.... the tutor couldn't allow me to leave as the college had refused me!!! wtf, no wonder I'm frustrated!

Tom Dunne

What kind of college is it? To put it another way, what level is the course - certificate/bachelors degree/etc.

intheclouds

Is it based in Ireland?

Is it a private college?

balliali

It's Hibernia College, based in Dublin. The course is a Masters in Teaching which is offered at both Primary and Post Primary levels.

Tom Dunne

Wow, I'm surprised at that.

Ok, my advice above still stands.

Put everything in writing. Clearly document the issue(s), putting times/dates etc. Start at the bottom, if you get nowhere, work your way up, copying in previous correspondence so you have a trail. Keep the language and tone professional and avoid emotive language.

balliali

Thank you so much for your advice.... I (and most others in the class) find them extremely difficult to deal with, and I have seen fellow students reduced to crumbling wrecks over the hoops they have to go through with them. I just feel that somewhere there must be some agency that should insist on professional standards as regards Feedback, results, etc. Gosh, studying is difficult enough with trying to keep down a job, organise family etc, but this lot have been horrendous.

Tom Dunne

The QQI is the government body responsible for quality assurance of educational providers. However I am fairly sure they do not deal with individual complaints on a course/provider.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Tom Dunne

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Feedback is the cornerstone of learning.

mirrorwall14

It is Tom Dunne but I wouldn't have gotten feedback in College on assignments (circa ten years ago). Even my thesis got very limited feedback. We had a huge battle during my PGDE to be given a provisional grade in TP so we could improve. Everything else there was no feed back on and in a lot of cases no result until the end

Tom Dunne

Timely feedback is considered best practice. Any institution or lecturer for that matter that does not give timely feedback would raise serious concerns for external reviewers, including the QQI.

mirrorwall14

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Timely feedback is considered best practice. Any institution or lecturer for that matter that does not give timely feedback would raise serious concerns for external reviewers, including the QQI.

That's interesting. Times have obviously changed fast then

intheclouds

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

That's interesting. Times have obviously changed fast then

Ive studied with a number of different institutions (both full time and distance) over the past 25 years and it would raise major red flags with me if there was no timely feedback.

Browneshill

Go straight over their heads, and to the source that supplies the Masters Degree - from a quick look at the website, it looks like Plymouth University? That will light a fire under something painful, although be absolutely sure what you want to do and get out of it before you pull the trigger. Alternatively, DEFCON 2 is just threaten the college that you will do so.

mirrorwall14

OP what do you mean by feedback by the way. Do you mean you haven't been given your grades for assignments submitted? Or that you weren't given written feedback on the grade? Are the assessments the full mark for the module?

I'm really surprised at comments here, you all got written feedback from colleges on assignments? Formative feedback? The most I got was a grade and a few words on any essay work and even then that wasn't always provided. I will say anything composition in music or tutorial stuff was corrected thoroughly but not the big assessments, particularly those where the assessments counted for the full grade.

intheclouds

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I'm really surprised at comments here, you all got written feedback from colleges on assignments? Formative feedback?

Yep.

I must admit Im super lazy about reading it but they give it to me!

Browneshill

In distance education, tutorials and feedback should be a priority. When I did my Degree, my college (now a uni) were policed by the NCEA who issued the degree - and there were occasions when the NCEA came in and pulled some noses telling the college to change marks in exams, etc. Then the college became a uni, and issues its own degrees with no real external supervision - that's progress!

Private colleges can't issue their own degrees, as they wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on. The source of the Degree that they work with usually guard their reputation jealously, for obvious reasons. I don't know if QQI issue qualifications, and if they do, they don't want any reputational damage so I really can't see them ignoring complaints - that would be a disaster to someone who is currently building up their reputation. The College need to stay under the radar with their issuing partner and wouldn't want you going over their heads.

intheclouds

QQI are the awarding body for degrees.

Hibernia College offers a range of degree programmes validated and awarded by Quality and Qualifications Ireland (QQI). Our professional teaching qualifications are accredited by The Teaching Council of Ireland.

You should contact them directly and complain.

Tom Dunne

intheclouds wrote: »

QQI are the awarding body for degrees.



You should contact them directly and complain.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

The QQI is the government body responsible for quality assurance of educational providers. However I am fairly sure they do not deal with individual complaints on a course/provider.

intheclouds

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Sorry - missed that Tom.

Its worth a try to complain to them.

Tom Dunne

Ok, so I did a bit of digging. As is common with virtually all reputable education providers, Hibernia has detailed procedures and policies on assessments and feedback. Full details here.

Section 2.4.3 in the Academic Regulations, Assessment and Standards policy details how academics should deliver feedback. If they are deviating from policy, that is a serious breach of regulations and, for staff members, a breach of contract. So if you can show what the issues are and how they breach policy, you have a very strong case.

Browneshill

I find it utterly amazing/daft that QQI, a state board established 4 years ago whos remit is to develop quality standards and review education providers, will not deal with individual complaints. I can't see any hint of that in their Customer Charter.

In any case if it's correct and colleges can fob you off because you can't go around them - Google QQI board members, you will find that one of the Board members is from USI, and he is USI's VP for Academic Affairs and Quality Assurance - why don't you contact him for advice?

Tom Dunne

Technically, the QQI was formed 4 years ago, it was in reality an amalgamation of HETAC and FETAC, which were in existence a long time before that. The point being, both had a similar remit, albeit at different levels on the National Qualifications Framework.

The reason they don't deal with complaints is that as part of their oversight of academic institutions, they check for policies, procedures and processes to deal with this kind of situation. Giving and taking student feedback, including complaints, should be an integral part of the operation of an institution of this nature. Therefore, at the risk of repeating myself, if they are not doing this, they are not adhering to policy and this is a very serious matter.

balliali

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

well surely each student is entitled to results of submitted assignments.... that's what's at issue here... not just feedback for the sake of it (that doesn't happen anyway). The results and few words of comments from assignments submitted in November 2015 would provide a guide as to what standard has been attained and some help to know if the approach taken is correct, and how to go about getting a good mark in subsequent efforts.

mirrorwall14

balliali wrote: »

..Mirrorwall14... well surely each student is entitled to results of submitted assignments.... that's what's at issue here... not just feedback for the sake of it (that doesn't happen anyway). The results and few words of comments from assignments submitted in November 2015 would provide a guide as to what standard has been attained and some help to know if the approach taken is correct, and how to go about getting a good mark in subsequent efforts.

I'm assuming you named me incorrectly as the quote is not mine?

I am totally on board with the results and I think its outrageous that they have not been provided to you at this stage. I have tutored for colleges in the past and I have always had the grades and comments submitted asap, usually within two weeks. I have no idea why on earth you would be still waiting on grades from assignments from nearly a year ago and I find that pretty outrageous on the part of the college. Feedbackis one I can't really comment with as I never was given any on official assignments myself in college

balliali

Thank you very much for this. It is just extremely frustrating to have all of these issues when trying to juggle family and life commitments while completing the course which promised so much. There are many other issues within the course- such as the college changing the location of a college onsite 24 hours before the event with no apology or explanation, meaning that people couldn't get refunds on train tickets that they had purchased in advance, etc. Tutorial onsites can be as diverse as Athlone, UCD, Tallaght, Navan, Portlaise, Thurles, Drumcondra, Fenian Street Dublin, so if you don't drive, it's extremely difficult and extremely expensive....so if you can even get reliable or suitable public transport (bus, there's no trains etc) from say for example Donegal to Dublin Heuston, you then have to get taxi to Tallaght etc.
I'm sure I'm not the only person to have issues, but the difficulty with dealing with admin is horrendous. Most people I know that are completing a 2 year Masters which started last September have their entire first year results safely tucked away, meanwhile we still await out results from at least 4 assignments completed months ago. Thanks everyone for your inputs, very valuable advice which will be shared among the class....it's onwards and upwards... we'll be Masters someday (hopefully soon).

intheclouds

balliali wrote: »

Thank you very much for this. It is just extremely frustrating to have all of these issues when trying to juggle family and life commitments while completing the course which promised so much. There are many other issues within the course- such as the college changing the location of a college onsite 24 hours before the event with no apology or explanation, meaning that people couldn't get refunds on train tickets that they had purchased in advance, etc. Tutorial onsites can be as diverse as Athlone, UCD, Tallaght, Navan, Portlaise, Thurles, Drumcondra, Fenian Street Dublin, so if you don't drive, it's extremely difficult and extremely expensive....so if you can even get reliable or suitable public transport (bus, there's no trains etc) from say for example Donegal to Dublin Heuston, you then have to get taxi to Tallaght etc.
I'm sure I'm not the only person to have issues, but the difficulty with dealing with admin is horrendous. Most people I know that are completing a 2 year Masters which started last September have their entire first year results safely tucked away, meanwhile we still await out results from at least 4 assignments completed months ago. Thanks everyone for your inputs, very valuable advice which will be shared among the class....it's onwards and upwards... we'll be Masters someday (hopefully soon).

Is there a class representative who can make a complaint on behalf of the group?

As a class you might consider the threat of "outing" these shoddy practices in the media.

You should also contact the Minister for Education and see what he has to say.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say.

balliali

Class reps get no more information than we do. I have a few bullets in my arsenal now thanks to everyone here. None of us have the guts to go on "Talk to Joe", it has crossed our minds... but considering we are awaiting results, we'd better not tempt being punished for that too! I have also studied previously with a (perhaps not that well known) distance learning Trust based in Galway.... the experience was so different. They were so supportive in the office, the tutors from GMIT, Athlone IT, Dundalk IT etc were only fantastic, it was an amazing experience and so much encouragement for adult learning. Even now any student who needs advice or information needs to just call the office.
So it's onwards and upwards, don't think I am the "A" student, but the results would help. I don't even mind the workload from college coupled with Learning plans and microteaching etc, I'm prepared for all that, and I have been told I am a great teacher on placement, so it's a pity Hibernia can't be more supportive and flexible. If I knew then (last year) what I know now.... I'd have gone a different route!

Tom Dunne

I will give one final piece of advice before I bow out.

When taking something like this higher, I cannot over emphasise the importance of concrete examples. I hate to use the word, but evidence is what you need - evidence of practices that contravene policy (see my post above). Opinions, feelings and frustrations, while understandable, are useless without evidence. That's why a documented trail is of such importance.

I wish you and your classmates all the best and hope you get a resolution soon.

balliali

Believe me, there's lots of evidence... think there's at least one per student! We do have a closed group, so we share stories.... even down to students turning up for class and no tutor, she's double booked, so waste of a day travelling. Then turn up for a class and the venue is so small it won't hold everyone.We don't need or ask to be "molly coddled" but the issue with waiting near 9 months for results of an assignment is ridiculous. Tom, thank you and everyone else who has taken the time to respond, we appreciate your information... and who knows, this could run and run....

balliali

Just a wee update... after uploading our assignment on 24th November 2015, we got an email on 8th August 2016 to say the results are posted on the upload site. Mind you that didn't appear to be without Hibernia hitches as I got mine, but reading on our Facebook group a few others got the email but results weren't posted up... hopefully that will sort itself by tomorrow. Oh the stress! Here's hoping now that Hibernia has found the way to upload results we will get all the outstanding scripts back very soon. We'll wait and see, thanks everyone for your comments and information.