Sheep profitability

Icelandicseige

Hi guys just wondering how profitable or un-profitable sheep are..?

What size of a flock you have and what sort of money are you turning over not including SFP. And what % of lambs do you sell?

Do you guys have a profits per lamb figure?

rangler1

Icelandicseige wrote: »

Hi guys just wondering how profitable or un-profitable sheep are..?

What size of a flock you have and what sort of money are you turning over not including SFP. And what % of lambs do you sell?

Do you guys have a profits per lamb figure?

Varies from year to year
Costing between €100 -120/ewe here to keep her for the year not including loan repayments and machinery repayments, but including variable and most fixed costs.
1.5 - 1.7 lambs/ ewe so you can work out your own figures, lambs average 21 kgs.
No pressure here so costs/ewe is probably high, so there's opportunity to reduce them, but lamb price and weight probably wouldn't increase

razor8

Costs from €90 to €110 here to keep ewe and that's covers variable costs like vetinary/vaccines/utility bills/fodder/dosing/ diesel/maintainance costs/contracting etc, it's the second lamb that makes the profit but unfortunately every ewe doesn't have 2. Aim is to sell 1.8 but only managing 1.6/1.7 last few years

Icelandicseige

rangler1 wrote: »

Varies from year to year
Costing between €100 -120/ewe here to keep her for the year not including loan repayments and machinery repayments, but including variable and most fixed costs.
1.5 - 1.7 lambs/ ewe so you can work out your own figures, lambs average 21 kgs.
No pressure here so costs/ewe is probably high, so there's opportunity to reduce them, but lamb price and weight probably wouldn't increase

Are Replacements, Cull ewe sales and Deaths all put in to them figures?
Would you increase your flock given the chance?
Do you sell to the factory or the mart?

rangler1

Icelandicseige wrote: »

Are Replacements, Cull ewe sales and Deaths all put in to them figures?
Would you increase your flock given the chance?
Do you sell to the factory or the mart?

keep about 500 here, could keep more but don't want to.
Replacement are bred on the farm and lambed at one year old.
All sold to the factory

Siamsa Sessions

Start at p17 here: https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2015/3685/eProfit-Book.pdf

It's a small sample size but there are lots of stats.

Costs and output will vary hugely on different sides of the same ditch/boundary. That's ever before you look at the region as a whole, stocking rates, infrastructure and handling facilities, breeding policy, farmers' other enterprises and off-farm commitments, availability of shearer/scanner in the area, foodstuff supplier, etc.

There are countless variables.

If you're thinking about it, buy a few and see how you go

Icelandicseige

What are your machinery and fencing costs ?
Do you do your own silage/hay!?

rangler1

Icelandicseige wrote: »

What are your machinery and fencing costs ?
Do you do your own silage/hay!?

The whole farm is fenced now so my only annual fencing costs would be maybe replacing 100 stakes and some strainers/ gate posts and maybe a gate.
winter the sheep on straw and meal, so don't bother with hay/ silage..
I put up my figures here in 2013, I think my costs were 70/ewe, but i used to out winter the sheep for most of the winter, everything done on a shoestring and my gross margin was nearly €1000/ha......it wasn't worth the bother, too much tax but there is the opportunity there to do that with sheep, if your prepared to work.
Have probably spent 100k since and if anything production has gone back, so my figures aren't really relevant to anyone now....shooting the breeze here and taking it easy.

This was us in the good old days

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/investing-in-an-unconventional-approach-can-still-pay-its-way-26859224.html

Icelandicseige

[quote="Siamsa Sessions}
It's a small sample size but there are lots of stats.

Costs and output will vary hugely on different sides of the same ditch/boundary. That's ever before you look at the region as a whole, stocking rates, infrastructure and handling facilities, breeding policy, farmers' other enterprises and off-farm commitments, availability of shearer/scanner in the area, foodstuff supplier, etc.

There are countless variables.

If you're thinking about it, buy a few and see how you go [/quote]

Thanks. Just had a look through your link...

Why do all these figures include SFP, and other schemes when it various massively from what each farmer is getting..
Why not forget about including them and Do figures from there..

Username John

Icelandicseige wrote: »

Thanks. Just had a look through your link...

Why do all these figures include SFP, and other schemes when it various massively from what each farmer is getting..
Why not forget about including them and Do figures from there..

Does page 19 not show 'Net profit Excl. premia' for both €/Ha and €/ewe?

stantheman1979

There are a lot of variables. How much land do u have, the quality of it, how well is it fenced, grass management, handling unit, stocking rates, you're experience with sheep, different breeds of sheep, are u going to lamb in or out, if out do u know what you're doing, where are u going to market lambs, how strict are u going to be with culling, replacement quality.
To answer you're question there is plenty of scope for profit with sheep but if you have a good handle on most or all of the above, but if are gonna ar5e around with a few then dont bother. Take it seriously or forget about it.

Icelandicseige

Thanks very much for the info back so far. I read a article on Agriland a couple of weeks ago, I can't seem to find it now but it was talking about something being set up for sheep farmers like the suckler schemes.
Ok so put it this way in your opinions with all the variables. What size of a flock would one need to survive. With all housing already in place?

sheepfarmer92

Icelandicseige wrote: »

Thanks very much for the info back so far. I read a article on Agriland a couple of weeks ago, I can't seem to find it now but it was talking about something being set up for sheep farmers like the suckler schemes.
Ok so put it this way in your opinions with all the variables. What size of a flock would one need to survive. With all housing already in place?

I would say if full time, at least 500 ewes with all land owned to make a half decent wage? Theyre pushing for a payment of 10 euro per ewe, im not sure if its a good thing, hopefully it doesnt fill the country with bad sheep which is what happened last time when there were headage payments

Siamsa Sessions

sheepfarmer92 wrote: »

I would say if full time, at least 500 ewes with all land owned to make a half decent wage? Theyre pushing for a payment of 10 euro per ewe, im not sure if its a good thing, hopefully it doesnt fill the country with bad sheep which is what happened last time when there were headage payments

Can't recall exactly where I got the figures, but I had it in my head that you'd need 500 sheep alright to make €30,000 per annum. I read someplace that the average margin per ewe is €60/year.

But again, what does that "average" really mean, given the huge number of variables involved on different farms?

One thing to note is the advised stocking rate of 5 ewes/acre, meaning you'd need 100 acres to carry 500 sheep and make €30,000.

Username John

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

One thing to note is the advised stocking rate of 5 ewes/acre, meaning you'd need 100 acres to carry 500 sheep and make €30,000.

That's 100 acres prob worth over half a million, maybe closer to a million dept on location... to make 30k... And not exactly an easy 30k at that...

Also - that's 30k before tax...

Dependant on location - you could make 20k tax free by letting it...

Not trying to disuade anyone doing anything, just commenting on the financials of it all...

sheepfarmer92

Username John wrote: »

That's 100 acres prob worth over half a million, maybe closer to a million dept on location... to make 30k... And not exactly an easy 30k at that...

Also - that's 30k before tax...

Dependant on location - you could make 20k tax free by letting it...

Not trying to disuade anyone doing anything, just commenting on the financials of it all...

Thats true, theyl not make us rich anyways! And i know for a fact im not making 60 euro a ewe profit, more like 30 in a good year! But the way things are, dairying in turmoil, beef trade gone to hell as usual, Tillage no good either, sheep are probably the best enterprise going but you have to like working with sheep, have some sort of set up and know what your at!

Icelandicseige

Username John wrote: »

That's 100 acres prob worth over half a million, maybe closer to a million dept on location... to make 30k... And not exactly an easy 30k at that...

Also - that's 30k before tax...

Dependant on location - you could make 20k tax free by letting it...

Not trying to disuade anyone doing anything, just commenting on the financials of it all...

30k is a darne nice wage if you have your bills paid!

Username John

Icelandicseige wrote: »

30k is a darne nice wage if you have your bills paid!

Is it though?

The link below suggests 700 euro seems to be the average wage
http://www.cso.ie/multiquicktables/quickTables.aspx?id=ehq03_ehq08
(I know, lies, damn lies and statistics)

But minimum wage is 9.15/ hour, which for a 40 hour week is about 18k / year.

I'm not trying to convince or disuade you of anything, just that the potential of 30k is just that, a potential. And secondly in comparison, 30k isn't all that. Especially when you take into account the amount of investment it might take to generate that 30k in the first instance...

Icelandicseige

Username John wrote: »

Is it though?

The link below suggests 700 euro seems to be the average wage

But minimum wage is 9.15/ hour, which for a 40 hour week is about 18k / year.

I'm not trying to convince or disuade you of anything, just that the potential of 30k is just that, a potential. And secondly in comparison, 30k isn't all that. Especially when you take into account the amount of investment it might take to generate that 30k in the first instance...

I completely agree with you.. It's nice to know there's potential. Putting it into practice is a different story!

roosky

Siamsa Sessions wrote:

But again, what does that "average" really mean, given the huge number of variables involved on different farms?

Average man in the 2013 e profit monitor were making -22 euro a hectare net profit

arctictree

I think we all know that its very hard to make a good wage in farming, especially if like me, you have no SFP. If you like it though, its a great lifestyle and far better than working for the man! Not sure you can put a monetary value on that.

kk.man

rangler1 wrote: »

The whole farm is fenced now so my only annual fencing costs would be maybe replacing 100 stakes and some strainers/ gate posts and maybe a gate.
winter the sheep on straw and meal, so don't bother with hay/ silage..
I put up my figures here in 2013, I think my costs were 70/ewe, but i used to out winter the sheep for most of the winter, everything done on a shoestring and my gross margin was nearly €1000/ha......it wasn't worth the bother, too much tax but there is the opportunity there to do that with sheep, if your prepared to work.
Have probably spent 100k since and if anything production has gone back, so my figures aren't really relevant to anyone now....shooting the breeze here and taking it easy.

This was us in the good old days

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/investing-in-an-unconventional-approach-can-still-pay-its-way-26859224.html

I must say congratulations on this achievement Rangler..it'sa benchmark you can strive to attain...very useful insight into an intensive sheep enterprise...and the dose of reality as to margins and variables

k mac

Rangler why did you use the slatted cattle shed for sheep. Was it due to no other use for the shed. Or to save building another shed. How did you find the slatted shed would you not have to use a lot of straw.
Also when people say 5 ewes per acre is that the ewe with lambs running with them or is that figure inclusive of all sheep.

rangler1

k mac wrote: »

Rangler why did you use the slatted cattle shed for sheep. Was it due to no other use for the shed. Or to save building another shed. How did you find the slatted shed would you not have to use a lot of straw.
Also when people say 5 ewes per acre is that the ewe with lambs running with them or is that figure inclusive of all sheep.

Cattle shed is on an out farm that the new M6 went through, there's now a sheer drop of fifty feet down to the motorway at the edge of the silage pit, so it's a huge pollution risk..
It takes about 5 or six round bales to blind off the slats and then it uses the same amount as the other sheds per ewe.

Stocking rate back a bit at the moment, nearer to 4.5 ewes + lambs to the acre, for some reason 30 ewe lambs and 25 mature ewes didn't go in lamb.
I want to get numbers back up without buying in

cattle man

I'm currently trying to go up in numbers of ewes from 150-250 this year. What would be your recommended route to go?.

Options are retain 50 ewe lambs I have left and tip. And buy 50 hoggets or older ewes.

Purchase 100 hoggets. Cost 175-180 each.

Purchase 50-60 older ewes 3-4 year old if I can source 120-130 each ?

I have Been building numbers so would alway have bought hoggets.

I will vaccinate what I purchase for toxo

Any one any ideas/ options

It's hard to get the type of ewe is like currently scanning 1.9 and I'd like to maintain this.

rangler1 wrote: »

Cattle shed is on an out farm that the new M6 went through, there's now a sheer drop of fifty feet down to the motorway at the edge of the silage pit, so it's a huge pollution risk..
It takes about 5 or six round bales to blind off the slats and then it uses the same amount as the other sheds per ewe.

Stocking rate back a bit at the moment, nearer to 4.5 ewes + lambs to the acre, for some reason 30 ewe lambs and 25 mature ewes didn't go in lamb.
I want to get numbers back up without buying in

rangler1

cattle man wrote: »

I'm currently trying to go up in numbers of ewes from 150-250 this year. What would be your recommended route to go?.

Options are retain 50 ewe lambs I have left and tip. And buy 50 hoggets or older ewes.

Purchase 100 hoggets. Cost 175-180 each.

Purchase 50-60 older ewes 3-4 year old if I can source 120-130 each ?

I have Been building numbers so would alway have bought hoggets.

I will vaccinate what I purchase for toxo

Any one any ideas/ options

It's hard to get the type of ewe is like currently scanning 1.9 and I'd like to maintain this.

Culling rate here is over 20% so it's likely that you're going to start at 120 ewes if your culling rate is the same so it looks like you'll have to buy 100 hoggets and keep 50 ewe lambs to reach the 250 figure.

Toxovax is worth while, especially if you're putting them in for lambing, consider using enzovax as well or at least be on the watch out for enzootic abortion, if it gets in your flock it can take a while to get rid.
Make sure you have plenty of lambing pens, we lambed 140 ewes in 3 days last year out of a batch of 200,so be prepared for the rush.
If you're scanning 1.9, you should be making too many changes

cattle man

Thanks do you tink the hoggets are a better bet than trying to buy 3-4 year old ewes?

rangler1 wrote: »

Culling rate here is over 20% so it's likely that you're going to start at 120 ewes if your culling rate is the same so it looks like you'll have to buy 100 hoggets and keep 50 ewe lambs to reach the 250 figure.

Toxovax is worth while, especially if you're putting them in for lambing, consider using enzovax as well or at least be on the watch out for enzootic abortion, if it gets in your flock it can take a while to get rid.
Make sure you have plenty of lambing pens, we lambed 140 ewes in 3 days last year out of a batch of 200,so be prepared for the rush.
If you're scanning 1.9, you should be making too many changes

rangler1

cattle man wrote: »

Thanks do you tink the hoggets are a better bet than trying to buy 3-4 year old ewes?

Id just be afraid of the reason for selling 3 -4 yr olds, we'd cull about 120 here every year and i could pick out 30 smashing looking ewes out of the culls, but every one would have a history of doing something......lack of milk, prolapse, rejecting lambs, ring womb, etc....and no one would ever guess by looking at them

razor8

cattle man wrote: »

I'm currently trying to go up in numbers of ewes from 150-250 this year. What would be your recommended route to go?.

Options are retain 50 ewe lambs I have left and tip. And buy 50 hoggets or older ewes.

Purchase 100 hoggets. Cost 175-180 each.

Purchase 50-60 older ewes 3-4 year old if I can source 120-130 each ?

I have Been building numbers so would alway have bought hoggets.

I will vaccinate what I purchase for toxo

Any one any ideas/ options

It's hard to get the type of ewe is like currently scanning 1.9 and I'd like to maintain this.

Are the 50 ewe lambs you have left the stragglers for the year? If so I wouldn't be holding on to them IMO

ganmo

If I was expanding I'd be keeping more ewe lambs and reducing culling
We sell 40 ish 3/4 yo breeding ewes every year and culls sold seperately so there are genuine sellers out there

cattle man

razor8 wrote: »

Are the 50 ewe lambs you have left the stragglers for the year? If so I wouldn't be holding on to them IMO

No these are 50 of my best ewe lambs which I had held with the intention of keeping. Maybe I should by more ewe lambs and tip them instead of hoggets

cattle man

ganmo wrote: »

If I was expanding I'd be keeping more ewe lambs and reducing culling
We sell 40 ish 3/4 yo breeding ewes every year and culls sold seperately so there are genuine sellers out there

Yes exactly seeing ewes on done deal now 3 and 4 year olds suppose to be genuine but you just don't know. If they were genuine then they would be good value as less lambing trouble and high scanning percentage over hoggets. But maybe for the extra 30-40 euro I might be better with young fresh sheep

Icelandicseige

rangler1 wrote: »

Id just be afraid of the reason for selling 3 -4 yr olds, we'd cull about 120 here every year and i could pick out 30 smashing looking ewes out of the culls, but every one would have a history of doing something......lack of milk, prolapse, rejecting lambs, ring womb, etc....and no one would ever guess by looking at them

Would you cover the slats first with something before putting in the straw?
Would you have trouble emptying the tank?

rangler1

Icelandicseige wrote: »

Would you cover the slats first with something before putting in the straw?
Would you have trouble emptying the tank?

Nothing on the slats, just roll the round bales out like a carpet on the slats,
I put 5ft water in the tanks at the start, probably will get hell agitating it alright, slats are from 1977 so probably wouldn't hold up cattle now, plenty of cracks.
Clean out the bedding every year with a levelling bucket on a micro digger, to keep weight down

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

we'd cull about 120 here every year and i could pick out 30 smashing looking ewes out of the culls, but every one would have a history of doing something......lack of milk, prolapse, rejecting lambs, ring womb, etc....and no one would ever guess by looking at them

Agree with rangler, Went through my ewes this evening. Had some really nice Looking ones, some as young as hoggets that I had marked earlier in the year as culls , and I cannt remember why they were marked as they look perfect. Was tempted to keep then around, but going to stand firm and
Send them to factory.