pinemarten Time to call halt

old n grey

As a farmer and sporting enthusiast are pinemartens doing more harm than good?Especially
to wild pheasant chicks .Been feeding three clutches along with some yearling horses and this morning all dead.Ihave noticed a few more than usual pinemartens on my lands of late.
Wild pheasants are better fliers than reared poults Discuss.

Tell me how

old n grey wrote:

As a farmer and sporting enthusiast are pinemartens doing more harm than good?Especially to wild pheasant chicks .Been feeding three clutches along with some yearling horses and this morning all dead.Ihave noticed a few more than usual pinemartens on my lands of late. Wild pheasants are better fliers than reared poults Discuss.

Must have been some pinemarten to take out yearling horses.

outdoors247

Are your horses Shetland ponies!

Capercaillie

old n grey wrote: »

As a farmer and sporting enthusiast are pinemartens doing more harm than good?Especially
to wild pheasant chicks .Been feeding three clutches along with some yearling horses and this morning all dead.Ihave noticed a few more than usual pinemartens on my lands of late.
Wild pheasants are better fliers than reared poults Discuss.

Prefer seeing native pine marten than non-native pheasants. Pheasants do damage to native corncrake in Ireland. Corncrake on the verge of extinction.

Grizzly 45

Didnt realise pheasents were raptors or birds of prey.How do they damage corncrakes?As well as considering they have been here since...oh...Norman times? Isnt it about time they get Irish citizenship at this stage??:)

Capercaillie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Didnt realise pheasents were raptors or birds of prey.How do they damage corncrakes?As well as considering they have been here since...oh...Norman times? Isnt it about time they get Irish citizenship at this stage??:)

Compete with corncrake for same habitats and more importantly can transmit parasites to corncrakes. Where densities of pheasants are high the parasite burden can become high for corncrake. On offshore Islands pheasants have been culled to lessen the effect on corncrake.

Eddie B

old n grey wrote: »

As a farmer and sporting enthusiast are pinemartens doing more harm than good?Especially
to wild pheasant chicks .Been feeding three clutches along with some yearling horses and this morning all dead.Ihave noticed a few more than usual pinemartens on my lands of late.
Wild pheasants are better fliers than reared poults Discuss.

Pine Marten are a protected species, and that will never change, in my opinion. I know it's fustrating, and disappointing to see hard work distroyed over night, but all you can do is try and prevent them getting in.

Discussions about protected species never go down well on this forum. It draws some unwanted attention. So we're probably better off refraining from doing so, (IMO).

rhino1

The change from hay making to silage making pretty much destroyed the ability of the corncrake to breed successfully in Ireland.

Capercaillie

rhino1 wrote: »

The change from hay making to silage making pretty much destroyed the ability of the corncrake to breed successfully in Ireland.

Allowing pheasants to impact on the few remaining corncrake criminal though. As regards pine marten, they ain't anywhere near the numbers required to have any impact on pheasant numbers in Ireland.

Mantis Toboggan

Surely mink are a bigger problem in Ireland.

Capercaillie

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Surely mink are a bigger problem in Ireland.

Mink, early mowing, lack of early cover(nettles/iris/umbellifers), foxes, overgrazing, disturbance by tourists. All problems

Half-cocked

Happy to have a few Pine Martens on my patch and don't care if they take a few Pheasants - they earn their keep by keeping the Grey Squirrel population down and I have almost no squirrel damage to my feeders since the Pine Martens moved in. Suspect the Pine Martens take a lot of rats and mice too, all good news.

Hotei

They also raid Corvid (Hooded Crow, Magpie, etc.,) nests too. I've found the remains of young birds and eggs outside Pine Marten dens.

Eddie B

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Surely mink are a bigger problem in Ireland.

Mink get a lot of stick in this country, and always seem to get the blame. There really ain't much difference between Mink and Pine Marten, apart from Mink being non-native.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have much love for mink, but I do admire them. Fantastic predators, just like the Pine Marten.

Birdnuts

Eddie B wrote: »

Mink get a lot of stick in this country, and always seem to get the blame. There really ain't much difference between Mink and Pine Marten, apart from Mink being non-native.

.

The fact that mink can swim means they do a lot more damage to breeding birds on islands and wetlands where other ground based predators can't reach. Native birds that have always nested in these areas for the very reason they were secure,safe havens, have no defence:( They are the prime factor behind the collapse of breeding colonies of gulls, ducks etc on many of the Shannon and Western lakes since the 80's. Indeed just offshore from my small holding in North Mayo there is an island in Broadhaven Bay that held many breeding terns and gulls. All was well till about 3 years ago when the number of succesfull pairs collapsed nearly overnight. I contacted NPWS myself over the situation and they installed some trail cames on the island. Sure enough mink had reached this former safe haven. This year there has been slight recovery as myself and the rangers have been trapping 24/7, including on the island itself. This effort though needs to be expanded cos it looks like they've reached the islands on Lough Carrowmore with similar results for local birdlife:(

Capercaillie

Birdnuts wrote: »

The fact that mink can swim means they do a lot more damage to breeding birds on islands and wetlands where other ground based predators can't reach. Native birds that have always nested in these areas for the very reason they were secure,safe havens, have no defence:( They are the prime factor behind the collapse of breeding colonies of gulls, ducks etc on many of the Shannon and Western lakes since the 80's. Indeed just offshore from my small holding in North Mayo there is an island in Broadhaven Bay that held many breeding terns and gulls. All was well till about 3 years ago when the number of succesfull pairs collapsed nearly overnight. I contacted NPWS myself over the situation and they installed some trail cames on the island. Sure enough mink had reached this former safe haven. This year there has been slight recovery as myself and the rangers have been trapping 24/7, including on the island itself. This effort though needs to be expanded cos it looks like they've reached the islands on Lough Carrowmore with similar results for local birdlife:(

Mink Has been responsible in a large part to extermination of breeding waders/corncrake from Shannon Callows

Birdnuts

Capercaillie wrote: »

Mink Has been responsible in a large part to extermination of breeding waders/corncrake from Shannon Callows

Yeah - basically you won't see any recovery in these areas unless local gun clubs, NPWS or whoever come in and get trapping. The Boora project in Offaly has shown what can be achieved, but it does require time and effort from dedicated folks.

Capercaillie

Birdnuts wrote: »

Yeah - basically you won't see any recovery in these areas unless local gun clubs, NPWS or whoever come in and get trapping. The Boora project in Offaly has shown what can be achieved, but it does require time and effort from dedicated folks.

NPWS Kieran Buckley is probably the main reason for the Grey partridge/lapwings success at Lough Boora.

Eddie B

Birdnuts wrote: »

The fact that mink can swim means they do a lot more damage to breeding birds on islands and wetlands where other ground based predators can't reach. Native birds that have always nested in these areas for the very reason they were secure,safe havens, have no defence:( They are the prime factor behind the collapse of breeding colonies of gulls, ducks etc on many of the Shannon and Western lakes since the 80's. Indeed just offshore from my small holding in North Mayo there is an island in Broadhaven Bay that held many breeding terns and gulls. All was well till about 3 years ago when the number of succesfull pairs collapsed nearly overnight. I contacted NPWS myself over the situation and they installed some trail cames on the island. Sure enough mink had reached this former safe haven. This year there has been slight recovery as myself and the rangers have been trapping 24/7, including on the island itself. This effort though needs to be expanded cos it looks like they've reached the islands on Lough Carrowmore with similar results for local birdlife:(

Good point! Thing is, there is a lot of misconceptions when it comes to wildlife. What they will, or will not do. What they are, or are not capable of.

I remember seeing a fantastic four part series called LOCH LOMOND, A YEAR IN THE WILD. Fantastic footage of Scotlands wildlife. One episode, i think the first, showed where a pair of Black Throated Divers were nesting on an Island on the Loch. Something was stealing their eggs, and so they put a trail cam at the nest, expecting an Otter to be the culprit. ( Dont think mink had made it that far at the time). Anyway, they managed to get footage of a Pine Marten raiding the nest. Each night it would swim out to the Island, and take an egg.

Nature truely does amaze me.

Also, whilst working with Birdwatch Ireland on Inishee, a Badger made it onto the Island, and had to be trapped by NPWS.

Now i know this would not happen as frequently as with mink in these environments. But it does happen! So what if Pine Marten numbers rise? Well they have in many parts of the country. Here in the midlands, their common as muck.

What about Boora? Wonder how do they deal with Pine Marten predation? There as much a threat to our native Partridge, as any other predator.

Also, birds like Lapwing, Curlew, Corncrake, they don't just breed on Islands.

Just throwing this out there to get people thinking!

Half-cocked

Pine Martens have always been here and have always predated nests as well as their other food sources. That's their niche in the ecosystem. Other posters have compared them to Mink. One big difference, Mink will kill as much as they can while the Pine Marten will only kill what it needs. The reason is because the Mink in it natural habitat will hoard food to get through the winter freeze. This hoarding instinct is still with the Mink that we have here - hence for example, why a Mink will kill so many poults if it gets into a pen. It is typical of what happens when an animal is taken from it's natural range and introduced somewhere else.

Eddie B

Half-cocked wrote: »

Pine Martens have always been here and have always predated nests as well as their other food sources. That's their niche in the ecosystem. Other posters have compared them to Mink. One big difference, Mink will kill as much as they can while the Pine Marten will only kill what it needs. The reason is because the Mink in it natural habitat will hoard food to get through the winter freeze. This hoarding instinct is still with the Mink that we have here - hence for example, why a Mink will kill so many poults if it gets into a pen. It is typical of what happens when an animal is taken from it's natural range and introduced somewhere else.

Pine Marten were always here in small numbers, so damage was very limited. Now that numbers are up (dramatically in some area's) damage is becoming more common.

A Pine Marten will do as much damage in an enclosed area, as a mink will. And around these parts, a fair share of poultry kills, are from Pine Marten. Not the Pine Martens fault, shi**y half arse* attempts of predator proofing pens.

I do agree, ( because I haven't heard of any evidence to support otherwise), that Pine Marten tend not to kill more than it needs, in a natural environment.

Saying that, I wouldn't like to see one released on a Island, full of nesting Terns.

Just calling a spade, a spade lads!

Half-cocked

Eddie B wrote: »

Pine Marten were always here in small numbers, so damage was very limited. Now that numbers are up (dramatically in some area's) damage is becoming more common.

But is the Pine Marten returning to its natural level now that human persecution has ended or is something driving the population up unnaturally? Anecdotally there is some link between Grey Squirrel and Pine Martens - an introduced food source? I'm not aware of any hard evidence of this other than the fact that numbers of Greys appear to crash when Pine Martens move into the area. Seen it myself, used to get 100's of Grey Squirrel photos on my trail cams until round about the time the first Pine Marten photos appeared, Greys disappeared completely! Apparently the Pine Martens eat a few and the rest clear out fast!

Eddie B

Half-cocked wrote: »

But is the Pine Marten returning to its natural level now that human persecution has ended or is something driving the population up unnaturally? Anecdotally there is some link between Grey Squirrel and Pine Martens - an introduced food source? I'm not aware of any hard evidence of this other than the fact that numbers of Greys appear to crash when Pine Martens move into the area. Seen it myself, used to get 100's of Grey Squirrel photos on my trail cams until round about the time the first Pine Marten photos appeared, Greys disappeared completely! Apparently the Pine Martens eat a few and the rest clear out fast!

Well Pine Marten have been protected for a long time, so it's more than just persecution that was keeping the numbers down. Most likely answer, is lack of suitable habitat. That has changed in recent years.

I agree, that Pine Marten are keeping Grey Squirrel numbers down. And that is most welcome. My home town is all but void of Squirrel.

Strangely enough, where I live now, have lots of Pine Marten, but also have a healthy population of both Red and Grey Squirrel. Don't know why that is.

Capercaillie

Eddie B wrote: »

Pine Marten were always here in small numbers, so damage was very limited. Now that numbers are up (dramatically in some area's) damage is becoming more common.

A Pine Marten will do as much damage in an enclosed area, as a mink will. And around these parts, a fair share of poultry kills, are from Pine Marten. Not the Pine Martens fault, shi**y half arse* attempts of predator proofing pens.

I do agree, ( because I haven't heard of any evidence to support otherwise), that Pine Marten tend not to kill more than it needs, in a natural environment.

Saying that, I wouldn't like to see one released on a Island, full of nesting Terns.

Just calling a spade, a spade lads!

Introduction of non-native species into an ecosystem is one of the biggest causes of extinctions, second only to habitat loss.

Eddie B

Capercaillie wrote: »

Introduction of non-native species into an ecosystem is one of the biggest causes of extinctions, second only to habitat loss.

Totally agree!

dodderangler

Capercaillie wrote: »

Introduction of non-native species into an ecosystem is one of the biggest causes of extinctions, second only to habitat loss.

Exactly. Look at what the fox and feral cats are doing to Australia's native species. Decimating populations. It's our own fault this is happened. Not the animals but our own for allowing it to happen.
Also if a pine marten or mink gets into coops or pens it's just lousy husbandry of keeping predators out.

old n grey

What is the natural predator of the pine marten ?

Hotei

In Scotland, Golden Eagles will take Pine Martens.

Birdnuts

old n grey wrote: »

What is the natural predator of the pine marten ?

The young ones would be vulnerable to foxes and occasionally larger BOP's

Eddie B

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

We might be able to stop the poisoning & shooting but the habitat one is a bigger thing to solve. Can they survive & thrive or is it a bit of wishful thinking?

My original point was I reckon the poisoning & shooting are being solely blamed for their "problems" surviving.

In my opinion, habitat, or lack of, is the biggest factor, without a doubt, and also the hardest to rectify!

In modern Ireland, with more and more land being reclaimed, and the use of pesticides, I can't see things ever improving, but more the other way.

Rimfire Shooter

Eddie B wrote: »

In my opinion, habitat, or lack of, is the biggest factor, without a doubt, and also the hardest to rectify!

In modern Ireland, with more and more land being reclaimed, and the use of pesticides, I can't see things ever improving, but more the other way.

I agree. I'm seeing habitat for all wildlife being removed in my area over the last few years in particular wetland being drained at an alarming rate not to mention ditches being ripped out left right and centre.

SILVAMAN

Eddie B wrote: »

Discussions about protected species never go down well on this forum. It draws some unwanted attention. (IMO).

From whom? We living in North Korea?

SILVAMAN

Eddie B wrote: »

A Pine Marten will do as much damage in an enclosed area, as a mink will. And around these parts, a fair share of poultry kills, are from Pine Marten. Not the Pine Martens fault, shi**y half arse* attempts of predator proofing pens.

Totally agree and have seen the damage.
Have to say that I keep poultry in a heavily afforested area where the day I don't see a pine marten is a rare day, and correct proofing of the shed avoids and attack on the birds.

daleshooter

do you think a pine martin will pass a corncrake nest if he finds one I don't think so.

Capercaillie

daleshooter wrote: »

do you think a pine martin will pass a corncrake nest if he finds one I don't think so.

What are the chances of that? Slim to none.

Eddie B

Capercaillie wrote: »

What are the chances of that? Slim to none.

Why do you say that, out of interest?

Capercaillie

Eddie B wrote: »

Why do you say that, out of interest?

They inhabit totally different habitats. Corncrake inhabit traditional hay meadows or dense nettle/iris/hogweed beds. Pine Marten inhabit dense scrub/woodland and would rarely be found in the open habitat of the corncrake. The corncrake is similarly specialised and would be rarely found in scrub/forest.

Eddie B

Capercaillie wrote: »

They inhabit totally different habitats. Corncrake inhabit traditional hay meadows or dense nettle/iris/hogweed beds. Pine Marten inhabit dense scrub/woodland and would rarely be found in the open habitat of the corncrake. The corncrake is similarly specialised and would be rarely found in scrub/forest.

The Pine Marten is a very adaptable animal. Here in the Midlands, they are seen everywhere. In all sorts of habitats. I've even seen them on the banks of the Shannon whilst fishing. Beautiful animal.

I think, the fact that Pine Martens are less common in some parts of the country, means they don't need to venture far from prime habitat, where as area's where their plentiful, the population tends to spill out into other types of habitat. (Just my thoughts on the subject)

As for Pine Marten taking Corncrake. More damage done from summer flooding, than any Pine Marten could do.

Capercaillie

Eddie B wrote: »

The Pine Marten is a very adaptable animal. Here in the Midlands, they are seen everywhere. In all sorts of habitats. I've even seen them on the banks of the Shannon whilst fishing. Beautiful animal.

I think, the fact that Pine Martens are less common in some parts of the country, means they don't need to venture far from prime habitat, where as area's where their plentiful, the population tends to spill out into other types of habitat. (Just my thoughts on the subject)

As for Pine Marten taking Corncrake. More damage done from summer flooding, than any Pine Marten could do.

Valid point with overspill. Corncrake extinct from midlands (Callows) now so Pine Marten will never be a problem for them:(. Mink a huge problem with corncrake on Callows. Most breeding waders have be exterminated because of mink as well on Callows.

Remaining corncrake populations in West are not present near any pine marten populations. I have two calling males this year and no pine marten (suitable habitat) near me. A whitethorn tree would not grow on my place (exposed site) so never a chance of good Marten habitat.

Eddie B

Capercaillie wrote: »

Valid point with overspill. Corncrake extinct from midlands (Callows) now so Pine Marten will never be a problem for them:(. Mink a huge problem with corncrake on Callows. Most breeding waders have be exterminated because of mink as well on Callows.

Remaining corncrake populations in West are not present near any pine marten populations. I have two calling males this year and no pine marten (suitable habitat) near me. A whitethorn tree would not grow on my place (exposed site) so never a chance of good Marten habitat.

That does make sence, cheers!

Cass

Eddie B wrote: »

Here in the Midlands, they are seen everywhere. .

I take all newspaper articles with a pinch of salt, but here ya go.

Eddie B

Cass wrote: »

I take all newspaper articles with a pinch of salt, but here ya go.

Yea, think that lad was on the radio too. Came out with all sorts a mad story's.

Bad_alibi

Cass wrote: »

I take all newspaper articles with a pinch of salt, but here ya go.

There's always a think of the poor children in those stories.