Slow Play?

moycullen14

Fair play to Monty

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/monty-s-final-round-march-refreshing-in-the-day-of-golfing-slow-coaches-1.2725265

razorblunt

moycullen14 wrote: »

Fair play to Monty

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/monty-s-final-round-march-refreshing-in-the-day-of-golfing-slow-coaches-1.2725265

Does the marker have to play out the holes though? From reading the Porteus round recap I got the impression he'd pick up if he was slowing the competitor down?

Boskowski

moycullen14 wrote: »

Fair play to Monty

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/monty-s-final-round-march-refreshing-in-the-day-of-golfing-slow-coaches-1.2725265

Ye true but he also finished dead last.
I'm not saying his pace was the reason for finishing last but I don't think he cared much for what his score was going to be.

So while it's nice I don't think the speed of the first pair of the day with a free run and no score to care about is the yard stick for pace of play in pro golf.

Domo1982

Boskowski wrote: »

Ye true but he also finished dead last.
I'm not saying his pace was the reason for finishing last but I don't think he cared much for what his score was going to be.

So while it's nice I don't think the speed of the first pair of the day with a free run and no score to care about is the yard stick for pace of play in pro golf.

Bit of a cheap shot at aul Monty there. No need and poor form.

And he didn't finish dead last actually - probably best to check your facts before you post

FixdePitchmark

I made that point yesterday. But there are many supporters in the amateur game of slow play.

I think the R&A have improved things - in fact, there was word at one point that the last group were told to catch up - if true, that is great news. If even, I would say a little over the top for a final group in a major. But I guess they are saying no excuses no matter who you are or when it is. Stay up with group in front - simple.

It seems the message is getting through and I think last group were just under 4 hours ? (they were 1hr55 for front) - which is good going for a final pair in a major.

I'd let a major go - but around a links course like that, a 2 ball should be making 3 hours (easy) - they are not carrying clubs and playing tee to green golf. There is no looking for balls etc.

They will have to take a little bit of time off the allowance for a stroke.
I'd be a bit more radical with rules on reading greens - but , I know that would cause aneurysms in even the weekend golfer.

Still way too long. With the read - read again - read from other side - caddy read- check note book - read again - practice stroke - practice stroke. Not on.
You can excuse pros shooting a 63 to a degree - but the problem is this filtering into our game.

Just be a bit rootless about it.

Was behind a 2 ball today - a disgrace , they were losing ground to a 4 ball ahead , men in their 60s / 70s ahead putting them to shame.

Boskowski

@ domo You're reading something into my post that isn't there. I don't mind monty really although I admit I used to like him not too much, but he has mellowed a bit. Used to be a bit of a git on commentary but lately he's grand. Certainly a lovely natural swing golfer and a big time champ.

I'm really only commenting on the issue. He was going out first and he shot himself out of anything the day before. That was the reason why he started first and of course it helps going around real quick when there is no one in front and you're not scrambling your damnest for a score.

Again, not sure where you read a cheap shot at him into my post.

Trampas

Monty wanted to play with beemer but I guess the R & A said no.

Boskowski

Trampas wrote: »

Monty wanted to play with beemer but I guess the R & A said no.

Ye I heard them joking about it the day before I think. 'See you 7:40 then'. But I was watching on and off with pause etc I'm not sure when exactly that was said.
Would have loved to watched that I must say. Pity, but I'm sure there were reasons.

Anyhow. Not in reply to you but generally speaking; I think we can all play in 2:45 in a two ball if nothing goes wrong much and we're never held up, I'd say faster even.
And I also agree that those 5 hour rounds from the pros shouldn't be a model for kids. Or anyone. At all.
But I thought it was a bit harsh if it was true that Mickelson and Stenson were told to keep it up. These guys were playing major record equalling low rounds in the final pair of the final day of the Open. Of course they don't rush things.

FixdePitchmark

Boskowski wrote: »

Ye I heard them joking about it the day before I think. 'See you 7:40 then'. But I was watching on and off with pause etc I'm not sure when exactly that was said.
Would have loved to watched that I must say. Pity, but I'm sure there were reasons.

Anyhow. Not in reply to you but generally speaking; I think we can all play in 2:45 in a two ball if nothing goes wrong much and we're never held up, I'd say faster even.
And I also agree that those 5 hour rounds from the pros shouldn't be a model for kids. Or anyone. At all.
But I thought it was a bit harsh if it was true that Mickelson and Stenson were told to keep it up. These guys were playing major record equalling low rounds in the final pair of the final day of the Open. Of course they don't rush things.

But - taking a long time over a shot - has it been proved it actually improves scores ?

The main problem is additional routine elements coming into a pros shot - that is in series to older routines, then they only start every aspect of their shot when the other ball has landed. Crazy stuff.

Padraig Harrington is the perfect example - his routine has just become more and more complex and annoying and he has disimproved as a putter.

You have got the likes of scott doing aimpoint over 3 foot putts - also this new penonemium of checking notes/green notes in routine should be banned out of the park. You can do it - but not during shot.
Scott - did aimpoint over a 3 foot then checked notes after - seriously.

3 hours - should be target , easy to do. These are guys in 2 balls - and only taking full 36 strokes of the ball each.

It is just they were let get out of control for too long - but bring back in control.

Big improvements so far at 4 hours - but a round of golf should be 3 in 2 balls.

Hoof Hearted2

What a load of attention grabbing bollix, the IT is now leaving the red tops behind with this kind of drivel!

Keano

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

What a load of attention grabbing bollix, the IT is now leaving the red tops behind with this kind of drivel!

Wonderful contribution. If you've nothing to add then do not post again in this thread. Thanks

Ben1977

My 2 pence worth. Played last Friday evening in a 3 ball strokes comp. No one in front, completed in 3:10. The difference for me was, we didn't have to search for one ball during the hole round. On the home course that's rare as the hay is now very high. What I don't understand from the pros is, there are marshals who spot there balls. Unless they hit it off the radar, they don't need to search for 5 minutes.
They walk slow and take an age on the greens. Why on earth did everyone of them stop and have a discussion with their caddy on the first? They all new the wind direction and had a game plan? The world match play really showed me how mad it has got. Jason Day during the semi final took an age for everything. I think he was even slower just to put his partner off.

Jawgap

I've never really understood why pros are quite slow - which is a relative term I know.

Our place has been doing a bit of work to nudge people along and have been tracking and reporting on times (with no names, but just to encourage people to consider their golfing 'behaviour')

Yesterday myself and partner played 18 holes of strokes in just under 3 hrs (we're very much mid-handicappers) - the pair behind were a sniff over 3 hrs only because they lost one on the second last hole (both were low handicappers).

With their skill levels, the information at their disposal and the assistance of marshals and spectators I don't see the justification for rounds taking much over 4 hours, and should be significantly less.

fred funk }{

Roughly, on average, how long should a 2 ball, 3 ball and a 4 ball take to do 18 holes?

The Rape of Lucretia

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Roughly, on average, how long should a 2 ball, 3 ball and a 4 ball take to do 18 holes?

Impossible to say with any accuracy. Length of course and difficulty are a big factor - you will play a 5800yd course faster than a 7200yd rough lines course. Skill of the golfer, is it a casual round, stroke comp, stableford, matchplay, playingwell/playingbadly, weather, etc.

And even within that, most players will have varying paces from round to round. When its 'not their day' and they are heading for 27 points with no great interest they will let things go, play faster, not be as deliberate over the tricky putt, not take their 5 mins to look for a ball. But same situation another day, and he is in the hunt for a good score or win, he will be slower (and in the former case, possibly bitching about how slow others are playing when he just wants to get to the club house asap - in the latter, will be justifying slowing down by saying well usually he is a quick player, and just this once he is going to take an extra moment).

As a rule of thumb though, and to enjoy your golf, best to go out with no expectations of beating 4 3/4 hours for a 4-ball, 4 hrs for a 3-ball, and 3 1/2 hrs for a 3-ball. If you expect less you will may be frustrated. Accept those, and your golfing life will be more enjoyable.

alxmorgan

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Impossible to say with any accuracy. Length of course and difficulty are a big factor - you will play a 5800yd course faster than a 7200yd rough lines course. Skill of the golfer, is it a casual round, stroke comp, stableford, matchplay, playingwell/playingbadly, weather, etc.

And even within that, most players will have varying paces from round to round. When its 'not their day' and they are heading for 27 points with no great interest they will let things go, play faster, not be as deliberate over the tricky putt, not take their 5 mins to look for a ball. But same situation another day, and he is in the hunt for a good score or win, he will be slower (and in the former case, possibly bitching about how slow others are playing when he just wants to get to the club house asap - in the latter, will be justifying slowing down by saying well usually he is a quick player, and just this once he is going to take an extra moment).

As a rule of thumb though, and to enjoy your golf, best to go out with no expectations of beating 4 3/4 hours for a 4-ball, 4 hrs for a 3-ball, and 3 1/2 hrs for a 3-ball. If you expect less you will may be frustrated. Accept those, and your golfing life will be more enjoyable.

Madness. Accept this and you are part of the problem. 4 hours for a 4 ball is well achievable and should be the aim IMHO.

Dayor Knight

Boskowski wrote: »

Ye true but he also finished dead last.
I'm not saying his pace was the reason for finishing last but I don't think he cared much for what his score was going to be.

So while it's nice I don't think the speed of the first pair of the day with a free run and no score to care about is the yard stick for pace of play in pro golf.

And he was possibly rushing back for commentating duties. No issue there but it's part of the context for his artificiality superfast round.

Hoof Hearted2

Keano wrote: »

Wonderful contribution. If you've nothing to add then do not post again in this thread. Thanks

Probably the best one in the thread, after yours of course!!!;):pac:

Boskowski

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

...

As a rule of thumb though, and to enjoy your golf, best to go out with no expectations of beating 4 3/4 hours for a 4-ball, 4 hrs for a 3-ball, and 3 1/2 hrs for a 3-ball. If you expect less you will may be frustrated. Accept those, and your golfing life will be more enjoyable.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Madness. Accept this and you are part of the problem. 4 hours for a 4 ball is well achievable and should be the aim IMHO.

Just as a guideline - other factors have been mentioned - and assuming 'proper' competition play I'd be more along the lines of 4 ball around 4 hrs, 3 ball 3.5 hrs, 2 ball 3 hrs. All that with +- 15 mins.

But I'd agree with saying that while thats a very easily achievable guideline you shouldn't get frustrated if it doesn't turn out that way. The one thing I hate even more than slow play is the guy that's bitching about 'the fkn pace today' through the entire 18 holes starting on the 2nd.

Sometimes its beyond anyones control as every little delay accumulates back through the field. This can easily happen in big comp stroke play rounds. No point in making everyones round a misery by being like a demon at every tee box.

First Up

alxmorgan wrote:

Madness. Accept this and you are part of the problem. 4 hours for a 4 ball is well achievable and should be the aim IMHO.

Totally agree. Anything over 4.15 should trigger a sanction.

BOB81

First Up wrote: »

Totally agree. Anything over 4.15 should trigger a sanction.

I'd be all for encouraging quicker play and some form of sanction for repeat offenders is not a bad idea (of course policing it requires some thought!).

Having moved clubs this year (from moyvalley to knightsbrook) its been an eye opener (and a pleasure) for me to be able to play a fourball stableford in 4 hrs - it just never happened in moyvalley and for strokeplay you were often talking 5 hrs which is too long.

But for me the quicker pace of play between the 2 courses is almost entirely due to the course layout/set-up (although a lot of the members I've met in knightsbrook do tend to play "ready golf" which helps a bit). Knightsbrook is much easier to find golf balls off the tee (the moyvalley rough is OTT in some spots), is a shorter walk between tees (for the most part) and is generally a more friendly layout - though they are both long courses at over well over 7000 yds off the back tees. So sometimes the course itself is at the root cause of slow play - which unpalatable as it is means you have to accept it to a certain extent.

alxmorgan

Boskowski wrote: »

Just as a guideline - other factors have been mentioned - and assuming 'proper' competition play I'd be more along the lines of 4 ball around 4 hrs, 3 ball 3.5 hrs, 2 ball 3 hrs. All that with +- 15 mins.

But I'd agree with saying that while thats a very easily achievable guideline you shouldn't get frustrated if it doesn't turn out that way. The one thing I hate even more than slow play is the guy that's bitching about 'the fkn pace today' through the entire 18 holes starting on the 2nd.

Sometimes its beyond anyones control as every little delay accumulates back through the field. This can easily happen in big comp stroke play rounds. No point in making everyones round a misery by being like a demon at every tee box.

I agree with the overall sentiment but 4 hour rounds becoming 4 3/4 hour rounds are not beyond anyones control....someone has to be causing it. And usually the issue is a refusal to call through. I know you can't do it all the time. But chances are if you are having to do it all the time then your group is slow.

And my big issue is starting out with an acceptance of 4 3/4.....that is setting us all up for slow rounds.

Jawgap

I think more clubs could do with implementing some parts the pace of play guidelines prepared by the R&A, especially the bits relating to setting a 'time par' for each hole so players can see if themselves if they are playing at a reasonable place.

It's a complicated issue, but, for example, something to come out of the efforts in our place to address it was the problem caused by groups setting off before their allotted time and the congestion that can cause.

Incidentally, I've a game coming up soon with a notorious slow player......not looking forward to it!

alxmorgan

Jawgap wrote: »

I think more clubs could do with implementing some parts the pace of play guidelines prepared by the R&A, especially the bits relating to setting a 'time par' for each hole so players can see if themselves if they are playing at a reasonable place.

It's a complicated issue, but, for example, something to come out of the efforts in our place to address it was the problem caused by groups setting off before their allotted time and the congestion that can cause.

Incidentally, I've a game coming up soon with a notorious slow player......not looking forward to it!

Would be interested if you came back here and posted what happened. Did it end up being slow ? If so what caused it in terms of what he was doing or not doing ?

I believe clubs could do more. Emails telling you to keep up with the group in front are well and good but more how would be better. Simple bullet points on the first hole and elsewhere would help:

• Play ready golf
• If in doubt hit a provisional
• When searching for balls let the first up to play hit in and then start to search
• Mark your cards on the next tee and if its your turn first remember : ready golf
• Leave bags on exit side of green
• Keep an eye on your playing partners ball

etc etc

Not rocket science but the amount of people that don't do this

cgh

well to add to this,

Played in the Captains Prize in Portarlington on Sunday.
strokes and we went out in 4 balls.

5 hours 5 minutes.

needless to say I couldn't get any proper rhythm going and played terrible. we waited on so many tee boxes and fairways to play.
utter madness.

on the other side played the second day of the Captains in the Heritage. 3 hours 45 minutes for a 3 ball stableford, we spent a bit of time too looking for balls and was quite enjoyable.

alxmorgan

cgh wrote: »

well to add to this,

Played in the Captains Prize in Portarlington on Sunday.
strokes and we went out in 4 balls.

5 hours 5 minutes.

needless to say I couldn't get any proper rhythm going and played terrible. we waited on so many tee boxes and fairways to play.
utter madness.

on the other side played the second day of the Captains in the Heritage. 3 hours 45 minutes for a 3 ball stableford, we spent a bit of time too looking for balls and was quite enjoyable.

4 player stroke in a captains is madness. Just asking for long rounds.

The Rape of Lucretia

cgh wrote: »

needless to say I couldn't get any proper rhythm going and played terrible. we waited on so many tee boxes and fairways to play.
utter madness.

Thats nonsense, and just making up excuses. Where would people be if they couldnt ascribe their bad golf to the 'slow' play of others?
Rhythm ? WTF ? Rhythm of time between hitting shots doesnt exist.

The Rape of Lucretia

alxmorgan wrote: »

4 player stroke in a captains is madness. Just asking for long rounds.

Whats wrong with long rounds ? Thats what people want if thats the time they took. They were enjoying playing their captains prize, taking a bit of extra care, trying their best to have a shot at it. The 'problem' of slow play is the creeping virus in the game of people whinging about it, having unrealistic expectations for the time it takes to play a rounds, the superiority complex of quicker players who feel entitled to demand that they are the 'correct' players and everyone else should play at the pace they dictate.
There is a French prime minister who said something along the lines of there being no problem too big enough that cant be solved by virtue of there being no solution to it. Accept the pace of golf. Problem evaporates. People enjoy their golf (but have one less thing to bitch about or convince themselves is the cause of their poor play).

death1234567

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Thats what people want if thats the time they took.

What a load of BS. Standing on a tee box waiting for the group in front of you to play their second isn't what people want or their choice. It only takes one group of people like you to ruin a days golf for the rest of us.

Boskowski

I wouldn't be quite in your bracket in saying that anything is acceptable. However, I do agree that there is also a problem with people focusing solely on getting around as quickly as possible. I'd side with you in saying that golf is a game that takes quite a while, several hours in fact, and who cares whether it takes 3:15 or 3:45, just enjoy the game instead of looking for something to be bitching about. Captain's Day may just take 5 hours, so what? You're waiting for a couple of minutes on the tee box? Big deal. Light up a cigarette or have a banana, have a chat with your playing partners. Maybe golf isn't for you if that's cracking you up then?
And it's not just golf, it's crept into every aspect of life, the idea of permanent urgency and that we're always hurrying to some sort of goal line. F*** that. A) it doesn't actually make a difference to anyone, it doesn't help, rarely ever, with anything and C) you make your life a misery. It's not worth it. Sigar, sigar...

cgh

building a Rhythm is not BS either,
I would reckon everyone here would like to tee off on a hole, let the rest of the group tee off.
walk up to their balls, have a look at the lie and whats ahead, pick a club, have a practice swing if they are so inclined and hit their next shot.
not tee off after waiting 5 minutes, get to the ball and wait another 5 minutes. then wait 10 minutes whilst the group in front walk the green and look at putts from every angle.

that's whats wrong with a long round