Pre-employment medical ... query ?

spaghettifier

Is this legal?

I got to the final stage of an interview process and there was a medical before they would sign a contract. I turned up at the place and had what I would actually regard as a rather intrusive medical, given that it is for a job that has zero requirement to do anything physical - IT related.

Anyway, I've hearing loss in one of my ears, quite serious but nobody notices and it's never in any way impinged on my ability to do my job.

I had particularly bad tinnitus the day of the hearing test and didn't hear most of the tones on one side. The other side was perfect.

They failed me on the medical!

I can't see how stereo hearing has anything to do with the job.

I don't particularly want the job anymore, but I just was wondering if this is going to make me somehow unemployable. As I am thinking maybe I should just go self-employed.

greenttc

So, they didn't go ahead with employing you? You didn't get the job because of your hearing? Would that not be discrimination on the grounds of disability? Otherwise a medical can be fairly standard and should not put you off.

bisset

Have a look at equality legislation. To the best of my understanding you should not be discriminated against on grounds of a disability when the disability does not effect your capacity to do the job as advertised.

spaghettifier

Nope, I got an email saying I'd failed the medical and they weren't continuing with the process.

I'm not really bothered pursuing it as I probably could get something better. I'm just a bit taken aback by the response.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Nope, I got an email saying I'd failed the medical and they weren't continuing with the process.

Did they say it was due to your hearing or just that you failed the medical? I've had numerous roles in IT which required a medical including drugs tests

dave98

Thats shocking

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

Did they say it was due to your hearing or just that you failed the medical? I've had numerous roles in IT which required a medical including drugs tests

Called back after the email and just got told it was due to the hearing. She wasn't "happy that I could fully interact with the multimedia environment" or some similar BS.

The role didn't require any editing of audio or anything like that (although I actually edit audio all the time and this doesn't in any way impact me).

I'm not in need of the job, it was just one of those kind of speculative things where they approached me via LinkedIn.

Basically the only issue it causes is that I can't hear people sitting to one side of me and will tend to turn around / put people on that side a lot more.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Called back after the email and just got told it was due to the hearing. She wasn't "happy that I could fully interact with the multimedia environment" or some similar BS.

The role didn't require any editing of audio or anything like that (although I actually edit audio all the time and this doesn't in any way impact me).

It's a fifty fifty case imo you could ask to redo it but if you failed a second time it wouldn't do you any good

Disability only goes so far if you are not capable of doing the job medically by their criteria I can't see that you'd have a case

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

It's a fifty fifty case imo you could ask to redo it but if you failed a second time it wouldn't do you any good

Disability only goes so far if you are not capable of doing the job medically by their criteria I can't see that you'd have a case

Probably ...

There would be no point in redoing it. It's about 5-10% hearing in one ear and 95%+ in the other.

That's kinda why I'm thinking I should just go self employed. This will only get worse as time goes on I think.

Anyway, a bit of a kick in the pants and quite depressing but, life goes on.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Probably ...
That's kinda why I'm thinking I should just go self employed. This will only get worse as time goes on I think.

Anyway, a bit of a kick in the pants and quite depressing but, life goes on.

What area of it do you work in?

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

What area of it do you work in?

Without going into specifics as I don't want the company or myself identified in case I do decide to go a legal route, but it's sort of a crossover between IT and marketing.

That's what I don't understand. The role doesn't really involve any 'fine listening' any more than watching TV would.

I could understand it if it was a job as a sound engineer or something.

Possibly they just didn't like me. Who knows.

It's just not something I'd have even though of as a 'disability' to be honest. That's kinda what shocked me.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Without going into specifics as I don't want the company or myself identified in case I do decide to go a legal route, but it's sort of a crossover between IT and marketing.

That's what I don't understand. The role doesn't really involve any 'fine listening' any more than watching TV would.

I could understand it if it was a job as a sound engineer or something.

They will have minimum standards they will want people to meet regarding the medical

It's hard to know if you'd have a case

spaghettifier

Oh well.
I might just launch in direct competition with them for the craic :P

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

It's just not something I'd have even though of as a 'disability' to be honest. That's kinda what shocked me.

Are you classed as being disabled due to your hearing? I.e. could you pronounce a medical cert stating this?

spaghettifier

Never was and wouldn't want to be classified as such.

my friend

Wow

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Never was and wouldn't want to be classified as such.

I'd say you not a leg to stand on so, you presented as someone with no medical disability and failed the medical they use in that circumstance

Loads of companies do medicals, but I can't recall one where I had a hearing test in IT so it must have some relevance in their eyes

spaghettifier

Considering I play musical instruments, speak several languages and so on, it's not a disability.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Considering I play musical instruments, speak several languages and so on, it's not a disability.

Sounds like you just had it on a bad day for you tbh

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

Sounds like you just had it on a bad day for you tbh

Not really possible.. although the test was very crude.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Not really possible.. although the test was very crude.

But you said your tinnitus was particularly bad the day of the medical? If it had been OK would you potentially not have failed?

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

But you said your tinnitus was particularly bad the day of the medical? If it had been OK would you potentially not have failed?

Probably yeah.
Just possibly scored worse.

Actually listening to those beeps tends to give me tinnitus by undoing all the work I did to avoid listening to it.

So definitely not doing it again and wouldn't work for them if they doubled the sallery either.

I'm.juet wondering about this situation more for future reference as I have no interest in actually pushing for the job now.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Probably yeah.
Just possibly scored worse.

Actually listening to those beeps tends to give me tinnitus by undoing all the work I did to avoid listening to it.

So definitely not doing it again and wouldn't work for them if they doubled the sallery either.

I'm.juet wondering about this situation more for future reference as I have no interest in actually pushing for the job now.

No reason to mention it surely?

cml387

I would guess (and it's just that ) that the medical was subcontracted to some outfit who have a checklist to fill out and you failed it based on some score.

It's a bummer but if you really wanted the job you could have a word with someone in the company.

I certainly would not fail to hire someone because they have no hearing in one ear,unless you were working the sound desk at a Beyonce concert.

spaghettifier

Seems like a box ticking thing alright.
That's what's completely put me off the company.

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

No reason to mention it surely?

No need to mention what?

Mrs OBumble

spaghettifier wrote: »

Considering I play musical instruments, speak several languages and so on, it's not a disability.

So it's not like they discriminated against you on the basis of disability, so.


Also, even it it was: employers are not required to hire you despite disabilities which impact your ability to do the job - eg we'll never see a blind bus driver or paraplegic parametic. They simplly have to make reasonable adaptations, and what is reasonable depends on the situation.

It's great that you can turn around and face someone to hear then when you're working face to face. But that don't work if all your meetings are multi-country conference calls. Depending on how the company organises the job, less-impaired hearing may be a genuine requirement.

spaghettifier

Mrs OBumble : Yeah, in that case I should probably should just stick to working in silent jobs ...

I've never encountered this before so, I'm chalking it down to one odd process.

Irish_Elect_Eng

To be honest, the hiring manager was probably simply told that you "failed the medical" without details as they would not want to communicate that any further than necessary. The hiring manager or even HR may not have been aware of the nature of the failure in full and without further information from you not in a position to evaluate if you could indeed function in the required environment.

I would say that you have a choice when faced by a medical in future.

• Tell the company up front during the interview process when informed of the need for a medical. If your condition does not matter to the company then they will flag this to the testing doctor and that test can be skipped.
• Take your chances with the medical process and risk a simple pass-fail result being passed to the company.

I have hired some folks with heath challenges, but they flagged them up front, I am not sure how I would handle it if I was to find out as a result of a medical, it would make me wonder if they would be the sort of employee that would be afraid to tell me if they were having difficulties in the role in future.

Best of luck in future.

spaghettifier

I would normally never flag this up as it's about as relevant as wearing glasses and has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability to perform the role.

I honestly never even think about it as anything other than a minor annoyance.

Also the above is basically implying I was lying to them or covering something up. That's absolutely not the case. At no point was I ever asked anything nor did I consider this worth mentioning.

I wasn't going for a job as a piano tuner or something.

I thought the medical itself was complete overkill for a job that mostly would involve dealing with code and strategy.

I've never had a medical for any previous job and just assumed it was some insurance technicality or due to sign up to their pension schemes.

Anyway, I'll be giving them a wide birth in future both as an employee and a b2b customer.

Found the whole thing rather humiliating tbh.

I neither need nor want the job. However if this is the new industry standard approach, it's just making me think I need to setup my own business and get away from HR processes entirely.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

I would normally never flag this up as it's about as relevant as wearing glasses and has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability to perform the role.

I honestly never even think about it as anything other than a minor annoyance.

Also the above is basically implying I was lying to them or covering something up. That's absolutely not the case. At no point was I ever asked anything nor did I consider this worth mentioning.

I wasn't going for a job as a piano tuner or something.

I thought the medical itself was complete overkill for a job that mostly would involve dealing with code and strategy.

I've never had a medical for any previous job and just assumed it was some insurance technicality or due to sign up to their pension schemes.

Anyway, I'll be giving them a wide birth in future both as an employee and a b2b customer.

Found the whole thing rather humiliating tbh.

I've had about ten medicals for jobs and five background checks
It's company specific

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

I've had about ten medicals for jobs and five background checks
It's company specific

Definitely hasn't been the norm for me and just a bit shocked given the very minor and seemingly totally irrelevant nature of the issue.

Anyway, you live and learn.

livedadream

as an FYI you dont fail a medical, the only way to fail a medical is to be dead.

you were deemed by the Doctor to not be fit for the role you applied for.

spaghettifier

That's very helpful, thanks.

Speedwell

The identical thing happened to me last year before the company involved pulled out of Sligo. I'd worked in the identical role I was "hired" for for fifteen years, I play musical instruments, never a problem with my hearing in any context at work in my previous job as an IT business analyst. However, at the medical they told me I had hearing loss and the job offer was withdrawn. And I did need the job and the withdrawal of the offer caused me serious hardship.

Mrs OBumble

I was thinking some more about this:

The phrase "not happy that I could fully interact with the multimedia environment" (or similar) is very specific - and not something that a doctor would make up for themselves when they were assessing your suitability for an office-based job. I'd guess it's something that the company has specifically requested the doctor test for.

Maybe you are unlucky, and it's needed for most company jobs but not for your particular one. Or maybe they do use some multi-media what'sit thing which you do need a certain level of hearing for.




Or maybe it's just a puedo-scientific way of keeping old people out of the company, which happens to screen out a few others too .... said in jest, but it's not impossible.

spaghettifier

It's worrying as it's putting people who aren't in anyway incapable of doing a job out of potential employment for nothing only theoretical reasons.

Considering a huge % of the population can't see without glasses or contacts, it just seems a bit ludicrous.

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

It's worrying as it's putting people who aren't in anyway incapable of doing a job out of potential employment for nothing only theoretical reasons.

Considering a huge % of the population can't see without glasses or contacts, it just seems a bit ludicrous.

But glasses or contacts correct people's vision, you've said yourself your hearing is bad and not corrected

I worked in an environment where we did a lot of conference with a guy who had poor heating and spoke really loudly on calls as a result, meaning the rest of us couldn't concentrate on our calls and frequently had to ask him to be quieter

livedadream

spaghettifier wrote: »

It's worrying as it's putting people who aren't in anyway incapable of doing a job out of potential employment for nothing only theoretical reasons.

Considering a huge % of the population can't see without glasses or contacts, it just seems a bit ludicrous.

if i remember correctly you couldnt be an airline pilot back in the day if you didnt have 20/20 vision even if you did wear glasses

spaghettifier

Stheno wrote: »

But glasses or contacts correct people's vision, you've said yourself your hearing is bad and not corrected

I worked in an environment where we did a lot of conference with a guy who had poor heating and spoke really loudly on calls as a result, meaning the rest of us couldn't concentrate on our calls and frequently had to ask him to be quieter

Maybe I should just get lost and become a burden on the welfare system and sink into depression because someone was a bit upset about someone speaking loudly ?!?!

Honestly!

Stheno

spaghettifier wrote: »

Maybe I should just get lost and become a burden on the welfare system and sink into depression because someone was a bit upset about someone speaking loudly ?!?!

Honestly!

No we were not upset at someone speaking loudly, we were unable to do our work due to them literally yelling so much that we could not hear people on calls

It was an open plan office with no acoustic shielding, and it was common for people to ask the person to speak more quietly, he himself acknowledged it was an issue.

As I've already said plenty of jobs will not require a medical so I don't get your point here

livedadream

spaghettifier wrote: »

Maybe I should just get lost and become a burden on the welfare system and sink into depression because someone was a bit upset about someone speaking loudly ?!?!

Honestly!

that escalated quickly.

just because you dont have a registered disability doesnt mean you dont have to make allowences at work.

I do have a registered disability (blue card and everything) but i dont use it, the people i work with dont know that i am unwell and therefore dont need to do anything different.
if i sat at home and had a pity party then yeah it would be my problem.

if i do have to make allowances (ie if i need to work from home or take time off for treatment etc etc) i dont expect other people to just put up with it... if my ability to do my job was affected i would ensure it wouldnt impact on my team.

spaghettifier

Who ever said I would be doing that?!?!?!?!

Forget it!

I can see exactly the attitude now. Seems self employment is the only option for those of us who are an annoyance.

livedadream

spaghettifier wrote: »

Who ever said I would be doing that?!?!?!?!

spaghettifier wrote: »

I should just get lost and become a burden on the welfare system and sink into depression because someone was a bit upset about someone speaking loudly ?!?!

you did...

Speedwell

livedadream wrote: »

you did...

Well, in my case I didn't. I hadn't been in Ireland long enough to qualify for any benefits, hence the hardship.

spaghettifier

livedadream wrote: »

you did...

I did not say at any point that I would be shouting in the office.

I have zero, none, not a single allowance that I need to make!

This doesn't impact me at all other than in hearing tests. I may have to use a telephone on one ear and not the other but as far as I am aware most offices do tend to have right-eared telephones !! The exclusively left ear handsets are rather rare.

livedadream

spaghettifier wrote: »

I did not say at any point that I would be shouting in the office.

I have zero, none, not a single allowance that I need to make!

This doesn't impact me at all other than in hearing tests. I may have to use a telephone on one ear and not the other but as far as I am aware most offfices do have right-eared telephones !!

i was referring to your little pity party...

not you shouting. but im gunna take your exclamation marks as you kinda shouting so... :cool:

sullivlo

spaghettifier wrote: »

Maybe I should just get lost and become a burden on the welfare system and sink into depression because someone was a bit upset about someone speaking loudly ?!?!

Honestly!

???

Nobody is saying anything about the welfare system? Stheno was merely pointing out a situation where hearing impairment may impact a work environment.

If you feel you've been mistreated or unfairly excluded from the job, by all means take it further. But if it was a specific requirement of the company and they said that your application wouldn't be taken further because of your hearing loss, then they're within their rights to say no. The only way that they would be in the wrong is in a situation where you said "I have hearing loss" and they didn't hire you on that basis. But even then, the waters are still murky.

spaghettifier

livedadream wrote: »

i was referring to your little pity party...
l:

yeah, a discussion about employment rights is a "pity party" now....

sullivlo

spaghettifier wrote: »

yeah, a discussion about employment rights is a "pity party" now....

But you don't have any employment rights as they can't discriminate against you for having a disability if you haven't got a registered disability.

spaghettifier

Grand! So my previous point remains : I need to go self employed as I will be potentially discriminated against in future during recruitment and have no protections.

That's all I wanted to know.