Longwave radio

savelongwave

Department of Foreign Affairs, RTE and Irish in Britain have published research results into UK listenership to Longwave 252

RTE have previously stated that they will close the service in 2017

Recently there have been day long outages

Is this an attempt to migrate listeners onto other platforms ?

StreetLight

The outages have been due to regular scheduled maintenance on the transmitter.

webwayz

There seems to be a greater frequency of outages in recent years?
Much more than during the time the transmitter was used by Atlantic 252? Perhaps they were luckier that it needed less maintenance or more likely commercial necessities meant it was off air much less often that RTE LW 252.

Is there any record or documentation from RTE or 2RN of what maintenance was done, to see if it was warranted.

savelongwave

Thanks for that. Considering that the hardware is solid state it is strange to have so many shutdowns. The older Atlantic 252 hardware was infamously unreliable using valve technology. It had daytime outages of course but never for maintenance. From our National Broadcaster one would expect a more professional approach. The BBC Radio 4 transmitter is of an earlier vintage and it's unlikely the listenership would accepit day long outages for maintenance. Even then during the refurbishment of the R4LW antenna disruptions were kept to a minimum and these were well posted in advance. LW 252 has been omitted in 2rn (RTE's network supplier) updates and Aertel which carries updates on FM etc outages.
For thousands of our UK Diaspora this service is a last link with home. in the recent listenership survey unknown to participants the signal had been cut back and today is just a fraction of its transmitter capability. A couple of years ago with little more than weeks notice RTE were going to pull the plug on this 80+ year service on the understanding that it had few listeners while RTE had gone ex directory nationally making it difficult for non internet folk to provide feedback. As a result of a public outcry this action was suspended. One would expect RTE to be more transparent when carrying out surveys of this nature. In the the digital age we all are vulnerable to the danger of group thinking as were th banks forcing folks to bank machines. How many of the RTE board are former Diaspora or pensioners and how are they informed on these folks needs? Is this a time to isolate our Diaspora while our Taoiseach and Ministers find it necessary to seek their support in the lead up to Brexit.

Banjoxed

savelongwave wrote: »

Thanks for that. Considering that the hardware is solid state it is strange to have so many shutdowns. The older Atlantic 252 hardware was infamously unreliable using valve technology. It had daytime outages of course but never for maintenance. From our National Broadcaster one would expect a more professional approach. The BBC Radio 4 transmitter is of an earlier vintage and it's unlikely the listenership would accepit day long outages for maintenance. Even then during the refurbishment of the R4LW antenna disruptions were kept to a minimum and these were well posted in advance. LW 252 has been omitted in 2rn (RTE's network supplier) updates and Aertel which carries updates on FM etc outages.
For thousands of our UK Diaspora this service is a last link with home. in the recent listenership survey unknown to participants the signal had been cut back and today is just a fraction of its transmitter capability. A couple of years ago with little more than weeks notice RTE were going to pull the plug on this 80+ year service on the understanding that it had few listeners while RTE had gone ex directory nationally making it difficult for non internet folk to provide feedback. As a result of a public outcry this action was suspended. One would expect RTE to be more transparent when carrying out surveys of this nature. In the the digital age we all are vulnerable to the danger of group thinking as were th banks forcing folks to bank machines. How many of the RTE board are former Diaspora or pensioners and how are they informed on these folks needs? Is this a time to isolate our Diaspora while our Taoiseach and Ministers find it necessary to seek their support in the lead up to Brexit.

Official Ireland doesn't care one jot about the diaspora except as a source to shake down for money. Payback? No chance.

LordSutch

I stopped listening to LW when I got my 1st smart phone a couple of years ago and was finally able to receive crystal clear BBC Radio 4 in my car (without all that LW noise & interference).

With the advent of broadband, wifi and smartphone technology, Long Wave is on borrowed time as a means of Radio station transmission. It does have other uses though, like Radio Controlled clocks/timers which get their pulse/signal via long wave transmission . . . .

Mycroft H

However, I'd say it'll be a while before everyone and everything catches up. 3g/4g reception isn't everywhere and I've still managed to get clear (actually listenable!) reception of 198lw in the car in rural Mayo.

savelongwave

Of course we can receive many channels on our mobile phones etc at a price but we are talking here about a publicly funded broadcaster looking for a change in how the licence fee is collected.
One issue here is the image RTE is creating by switching off the LW radio service for so called "scheduled maintenance". This rings hallow. It reminds one of RTE's earlier closure attempt based on listenership figures that have since been disproven. Rather than reflecting the standards of a high tech developed country our National Broadcaster appears to represent those of a third world dictatorship insults the intelligence of their listeners in the process.
This is the only free to air service available from Ireland in vehicles across these islands and enjoyed by many on the move visiting extended families in the UK part of our 5M third generation Diaspora.
What technical standards does RTE operate to ? Would we allow our bus or train services to shut down for "scheduled maintenance ". How can we not but feel that this is an attempt to move politicians into a change in how the licence is collected. Sadly RTE pick on our Diaspora some of whom are the now vulnerable "invisible Irish" forced off this island by economic necessity and through their remittances funded our educational system in the early sixties.
Many today are isolated pensioners some in poor health living alone.
Now on low power LW252 is virtually wiped out across London and S.E England by a station many times more powerful. An overnight solution at near zero cost is to move to 261kHz a channel now clear.

The Broadcasting Act 2009 spells out clearly the responsibilities of Comreg.

Par 60 states :

The Communications Regulator may vary any term or condition of a broadcasting licence -

(a) if it appears to be necessary to do so in the interests of good frequency management

(c) if it appears to it to be in the public interest to do so.

Surely the ball is now in Comreg's court and that of the politicians to begin this process.

Will our newly elected politicians have the courage to push these changes through?

A frequency change took place in the late nineties and most stations including BBC, France Inter, R.Luxembourg etc did so overnight.

Cliff Walker

Get off the internet Enda good man

Sam Russell

savelongwave wrote: »

What technical standards does RTE operate to ? Would we allow our bus or train services to shut down for "scheduled maintenance ".

Funny you should say that. Today (17/07/2016) - all day - the Dart service is not operating from Dun Loaghaire to Connolly - for - you guessed it - maintenance.

This has been going on all year at certain weekends.

savelongwave

Sorry to hear that Sam but at least you have an excellent bus service. And, by the way its free for pensioners. It's unlikely Sam you'd remember the fifties. Many who left Dun Laoghaire or the North Wall on cattle boats. Yes many are still alive. It's unlikely they'r blogging though. In their seventies and eighties now. Those are the Diaspora RTE want to pull the plug on with "scheduled maintenance" at regular intervals.
Have RTE any pride in how they operate ? Are they promoting brand Ireland with a service that shuts down for hours ? Ryanair's fanfare reminds us - on schedule - yes the system works. Not so Longwave 252 our Diaspora's " home from home".... " precious link" to be cut next year while our politicians wash their hands telling us they have no control it being an operational matter. Its time this situation was remedied.

FRIENDO

I suppose the fact that RTE Radio stations are now available fta on Freesat and FTA satellite across the UK is one of the reasons why RTE would look at phasing out LW radio.

savelongwave

Indeed that could be an argument but new research is now available showing the needs of this audience and how they listen and satellite reception is not a solution. Of course satellite reception is not available while on the move.
If you wish you can read the report from Foreign Affairs which is on our website. Can't give you the actual link as of now being a recently registered user. However the name is similar to this strand but containing the word RTE and Radio. Thanks again for your interest.

savelongwave

StreetLight wrote: »

The outages have been due to regular scheduled maintenance on the transmitter.

So are you saying that there have been no breakdowns and all loss of programme have been due to "scheduled maintenance"
Things have changed a lot since I worked on Kippure in the days when we had no standby transmitters. Then a 30" outage was apologised for whereas there have been hour long breaks without apology. Not a good image. Reminds me of the pirate days.

webwayz

I see LW 252 is off-air again this morning? any reason for this? no information on 2rn.ie website but is on aertel (users of long wave 252 mostly in the UK wouldnt have access to Aertel?) aertel page 169/2

RTÉNL Technical Information
Service Notification:
2rn - Summerhill, Co. Meath.

Due to a technical difficulty, our Summerhill Hill transmitter is currently off the air.

This issue is affecting the Radio One long wave service from this site.

2rn apologise for any inconvenience caused by this technical difficulty.

savelongwave

Another RTE day long LW252 switch off claiming "ESSENTIAL MAINTENANCE" while suggesting unaffordable alternatives to Diaspora pensioners.
For many this is their only and last link with home.

webwayz

RTE - RTE NL / 2RN need to justify these outages?
It seems it is part of a campaign to vandalise the service by outages - in the Atlantic 252 days this transmitter was not off air as much, or as frequently
The service also seems to be off air more often since the RTE board wanted to close down the service, so it is disingenuous by RTE it seems:mad:

savelongwave

What must we think about our National Broadcaster with the responsibility of accuracy and running our national news service. I feel it dangerous to allow standards to slip with statements claiming "essential maintenance". The transmitter is solid state with built in reliability in a series of individual modules that together build up to the full signal power. Besides this, the power has been drastically reduced and is now according to measurements and reports from UK etc, just a fraction of its original.

Sam Russell

savelongwave wrote: »

What must we think about our National Broadcaster with the responsibility of accuracy and running our national news service. I feel it dangerous to allow standards to slip with statements claiming "essential maintenance". The transmitter is solid state with built in reliability in a series of individual modules that together build up to the full signal power. Besides this, the power has been drastically reduced and is now according to measurements and reports from UK etc, just a fraction of its original.

Is this the same national broadcaster that has crippled the Saorview signal for non-approved sets by adding 38 blank channels, two SSU data channels in position 1 on both muxes, and disabled the series link functionality that used to be on Saorview?

Thought so!

savelongwave

Sam its a little above my head as I have not been across the launch of Saorview but I take your point nevertheless. I feel that RTE want to abandon LW and push listeners onto the UK DAB Multiplex. This would bring DAB by the back door so to speak via N. Ireland. Then RTE could call for the same DAB service across the island and switch off FM as they hoped in the past. A well known RTE DAB campaigner in calling for DAB... " FM is not good enough... we need something better" ie DAB.... a radio that works in Newry should also work in Dundalk. For historical reasons Ireland's FM signal is 10 db better than the UK. This means in practice that at table top level Ireland's FM field strength is equivalent to what is obtained at chimney level in the UK.

savelongwave

Longwave 252 off the air between 10 and 5pm yesterday and today.

With some past prodding from unhappy UK Diaspora Aertel is now including these so called "essential maintenance" outages.

I note the newly appointed Diaspora Senator from Chicago referred to the LW controversy in his maiden Seanad speech just prior to the Seanad going into recess and its available on the Oireachtas website as we would expect.

As a newbie can't link to it here.

With the move to allow for Diaspora representation arguments for a continuation of LW are stronger.

The Cush

savelongwave wrote: »

I note the newly appointed Diaspora Senator from Chicago referred to the LW controversy in his maiden Seanad speech just prior to the Seanad going into recess and its available on the Oireachtas website as we would expect.

As a newbie can't link to it here.

A fleeting mention - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/seanad2016072000002#N82

Also a couple of Dáil questions for written answer relating to longwave in recent months ...

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2016070500064?opendocument#WRB02350

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2016062100083?opendocument#WRY01700

Apogee

From those ministerial answers, it's clear the government are leaving sole responsibility to RTÉ. Unless the Dept of Foreign Affairs it willing to fork up, it must surely be only a matter of time before LW is switched off.

savelongwave

True Apogee. Certainly without additional funding it would appear so. We know
RTE is struggling financially. However their judgement in the past hasn't been accurate thinking only a handful listened. The researchers were inundated and had to engage extra staff. Emigration is an issue that has hit most of us.
The operating costs are miniscule as compared to the RTE budget.
If you note carefully Minister Flanagan's statements you will see a change in tone with reference to Brexit and keeping our emigrants informed.
As a newbie I can't link to them here.
Thanks again.

Apogee

I read the survey the Minister references and I thought it was odd that they asked how many people accessed radio via a computer, but nowhere in the report does it mention what percentage of people actually own a PC/laptop. A equally odd omission is nowhere does the report mention what percentage of respondents have internet access.

http://www.irishinbritain.org/cmsfiles/Images/RTE/FINAL-Exec-Summary-for-uploading-to-website.pdf

Is there a fuller version of the above report?

From what I can see, this campaign to 'save longwave' is a battle that is inevitably going to be lost. If you think this survey is going to cause a radical change in RTÉs longterm plans, then the fact that we have a DAB rollout in Ireland that covers only Dublin, Limerick and Cork while the rest of the country can go swivel, demonstrates just how little RTÉ cares about its listeners, either in Ireland or overseas.

There seems to be a thread running through the survey regarding a fear/lack of knowledge among respondents in accessing RTÉ via digital methods. It might be a far better use of resources spending time educating these people how to access RTÉ either via a TV or internet etc rather than focussing on LW.

In the past, when RTÉ shutdown their shortwave service, they offered free WorldSpace satellite radios to listeners in Africa etc. Why not press RTÉ to make a similar offer to expats in UK of a free Internet Radio? The community groups could then help to distribute and demonstrate their use.

What would be the cost of running longwave for a year vs. the cost of a few thousand internet radios?

savelongwave

Thanks The Cush and Apogee for comments.

How many 60's emigrants are internet savvy ? We are talking here about people who are pensioners today who emigrated in the post war years. How many are engaging on Boards?
Those emigrants who are 60+ years today were 45 around the time that internet was becoming established.

How many then could afford a computer or even type. Obviously 70 year olds were 55 back in the naughties and are not the LW target audience.

It would be impossible task to try educating 60/70 year olds many of whom are in

poor health and isolated in homes or sheltered accommodation across the UK.

The UK pension according to Google is £119.30 pw.

Many who emigrated to post WW11 UK did so under the radar as it was illegal then to work

without a permit. They paid no social welfare but sent money back to their families thinking

they would return sometime.

The work permit rule even applied to N.Ireland.

That is why the Government have put in place the Emigrant Support Programme.

This followed up the Task Force on Emigration as published August 2002

savelongwave

Thanks Apogee.

Don't know what the situation is today with World Space but they encrypted and then closed some

time after RTE ended short wave.

No one knows how many radios RTE supplied.

A smart PR exercise fixing up a limited number of missionaries /aid workers in the most isolated and

remote areas of Africa.

Anyway RTE only resumed short wave after a group of volunteers took the initiative themselves and hired

BBC SW transmitters in 1995 relaying both GAA finals with the support of the GAA.

These transmissions were paid for by Irish Overseas Broadcasting and was a non commercial experiment.

The transmissions were beamed from Skelton in Cumbria with reception reports from across Europe and as

far away as Australia and the USA.

This is all in the past. Today the issue is just maintaining a LW link independent of gatekeepers that can

serve hundreds of thousands of people on the move across our islands including Diaspora.

The cost is a fraction of 1per cent of RTE's budget.

We must remember that there are FM black spots at home.

There is no suitable alternative if RTE are allowed pull the plug !

webwayz

I think RTE has a responsibility to broadcast to the Irish overseas, particularly the Irish in Britain.

From the RTE Charter

"RTÉ recognises the importance of news and information about Ireland for the Irish abroad in maintaining contact with Ireland and preserving an Irish dimension to their identity"

This should be available via Radio, not be forced to use computers or phone apps or set top tv boxes, or satellite subscription. Particularly since the older demographic in the UK would not be of the Internet generation.

Since RTE dropped its Medium Wave services, claiming Long Wave was better, longer range, reaching parts of the UK such as London which previously had poor RTE MW reception, it is disingenuous to now seemingly to be trying to close it.

To fulfil its remit to broadcast to the Irish abroad, a percentage of the licence fee should be ring fenced for this maybe 1%, if RTE can not deliver this, it should be tendered out to other companies.

dxhound2005

That is from the 2004 Charter. Two years later their 2006 Annual Report claimed that the remit was being met by providing an online service (page 87). Internet technology has advanced since then.

http://www.rte.ie/documents/about/rte_06_eng_annualreport.pdf

Commitment achieved. All news material is available to the
international audience. 207,000 unique users based overseas
access news content on RTÉ.ie each month, generating 2.1 million
page impressions monthly

Their 2010 Public Service Statement, which officially supersedes the 2004 Charter says only this:

RTÉ is a not-for-profit media organisation which exists to serve the
Irish people. The Broadcasting Act 2009 requires that RTÉ entertain,
inform and educate and have the character of a public service.
RTÉ’s broadcasting services must be offered free-to-air to the
whole community and to Irish communities abroad, in so far as is
reasonably practical.

http://www.rte.ie/documents/about/rte-pss-2010v1.pdf

They do not have a particular remit to provide a radio service to Britain, no more than to Australia or America. LW and MW is disappearing all round Europe. France closed down all MW this year and LW will be gone next year. New cars do not have LW on their radios any more, and many ordinary radios are MW FM only or FM DAB only. The Long Wave Goodbye is just a matter of time.

savelongwave

Thanks DX Hound.

True the internet has changed but so have our needs - so fast that RTE's remit may have to be revisited.

Post Brexit things have changed dramatically.

We find our Taoiseach and Ministers visiting the UK to lobby support from our Diaspora while RTE switch off the most vulnerable and isolated of these.

Day long outages claiming “essential maintenance “ have become a regular experience for those, many now pensioners, who depend on LW 252 - for some there last and only link with home.

Now settled their extended families have moved up the ladder and will have some influence on future events that can impact on our economy post Brexit.

As stated elsewhere these older emigrants are the cohort who funded our education budget amounting to €16M in the early sixties.

So having paid our bills and educated us we switch them off !

If RTE hope to gain support to work their way out of a financial crisis this certainly isn’t the way to go about it.

FRIENDO

Sadely I think you are chasing a loss cause, the World is moving on, many radios over the last 10 years don't even come with a LW frequency.

I think like tv and analogue reception, LW will soon be gone.

Yes, I know it nice to have in a car, but again alot of cars no longer have LW on radio (my 2006 vectra hasn't anyway).

Satellite radio, Internet radio are now the future.

Yes I know for some of our older people this is a challenge, or they may have to buy new equipment for RTE reception.

Luckily for the UK, RTE can be received by satellite free to air, which is an easy access for people and an excellent reception.

I also think it a good investment by RTE in providing our radio stations

But I think the sun is setting on LW.

Radio Eireann lw252

<snip>

icdg

We don’t drag up old threads