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The story of what led bobby sands to join the IRA

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    #122
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭indioblack


    jack923 wrote: »
    Le mon restaurant bombing was done by british double agents same with the proxy bomb campaign files were actually leaked on the proxy bomb campaign.
    So the British did it again - suppose the IRA weren't really needed.


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    #123
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    Owryan wrote: »
    Sooooo, ira attacks that killed some people were real ira attacks, but some ira attacks that killed people were fake/false flag/british plots.

    So you don't believe some PIRA attacks were done by double agents to hurt support for the IRA?


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    #124
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    I'll say one thing for extremist Republicans - they have a great propaganda machine. More so than the extremists on other side, who were also scumbags.


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    #125
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭indioblack


    jack923 wrote: »
    So you don't believe some PIRA attacks were done by double agents to hurt support for the IRA?
    They didn't need double agents - they could achieve that by themselves.


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    #126
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    maryishere wrote: »
    I'll say one thing for extremist Republicans - they have a great propaganda machine. More so than the extremists on other side, who were also scumbags.

    The British army or loyalists? Basically the same thing really so it doesn't matter I suppose.


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    #127
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    jack923 wrote: »
    The British army or loyalists? Basically the same thing really so it doesn't matter I suppose.
    Your lack of knowledge highlights the fact. You still have never heard of anphoblacht was, and what role it played in the troubles?


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    #128
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    jack923 wrote: »
    You could easily call the British cowards for that attack since they got 36 of their most highly trained men to ambush 5 IRA men.

    British ambushes = cowardly
    ira ambushes = brave.

    That's the contradiction i am reading.

    As for british double agents, entirely possible but to suggest that all actions that hurt the murder campaign was their handiwork is laughable.

    Incidents like the shankill fish shop bombing, Enniskillen, Warrington, Omagh did more than enough to hurt your proud courageous warriors


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    #129
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    maryishere wrote: »
    All of the IRA campaigns.

    One of them lead to the founding of this state. Are you going to criticise that one too?


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    #130
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    One of them lead to the founding of this state. Are you going to criticise that one too?

    Clearly seperate entities in anyone launguage


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    #131
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    Owryan wrote: »
    British ambushes = cowardly
    ira ambushes = brave.

    That's the contradiction i am reading.

    As for british double agents, entirely possible but to suggest that all actions that hurt the murder campaign was their handiwork is laughable.

    Incidents like the shankill fish shop bombing, Enniskillen, Warrington, Omagh did more than enough to hurt your proud courageous warriors

    No I was saying that neither of them were cowards that was my point and I didn't say all actions but a couple of famous ones the evidence all points towards it.

    I don't believe any of the ones you mentioned above were done by double agents just done by morons and I think I should point out that the omagh bombing was done by a different group.


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    #132
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Deleted User wrote: »
    One of them lead to the founding of this state.
    I was referring to IRA terrorism campaigns of the 1940's and 1956-1962, which led to hundreds of Republicans being interned on both sides of the border then.


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    #133
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Clearly seperate entities in anyone launguage

    Not separate entities whatsoever, mothers of children murdered for being suspected of being a spy, innocent children killed, collins sending the boys round to beat up members of a newspaper outlet.


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    #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jack923 wrote: »
    I think I should point out that the omagh bombing was done by a different group.

    Which different group was that jack?


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    #135
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    jack923 wrote: »
    Not separate entities whatsoever, mothers of children murdered for being suspected of being a spy, innocent children killed, collins sending the boys round to beat up members of a newspaper outlet.
    Your attitude highlights the dangers of glorifying the "heroes" of 1916. The revisionism of events in 1916 and one sided teaching of events then helped inflame tensions after the 50th anniversary in '66.
    You think you know all about N. Ireland and the poor oppressed minority there and yet you never even heard of anphoblacht , and what role it played in the troubles?
    Were you ever around in the troubles, or ever meet ordinary decent people from both sides in N. Ireland? Or do you think there was no ordinary decent people on the "other side"?


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    #136
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    jack923 wrote: »
    Not separate entities whatsoever, mothers of children murdered for being suspected of being a spy, innocent children killed, collins sending the boys round to beat up members of a newspaper outlet.

    Of course they're seperate. They're decades apart for a start. Similar actions carried out in different eras as you describe does not mean they are the same conflict. Its a suggestion that is open to ridicule.


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    #137
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    One of them lead to the founding of this state. Are you going to criticise that one too?

    I would.

    There'd been huge amounts of progress moving peacefully towards independence and it was pretty close at that point.

    It would have taken a bit longer but would have lead to a much more stable country with better outcomes for the people in it.


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    #138
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    maryishere wrote: »
    Your attitude highlights the dangers of glorifying the "heroes" of 1916. The revisionism of events in 1916 and one sided teaching of events then helped inflame tensions after the 50th anniversary in '66.
    You think you know all about N. Ireland and the poor oppressed minority there and yet you never even heard of anphoblacht , and what role it played in the troubles?
    Were you ever around in the troubles, or ever meet ordinary decent people from both sides in N. Ireland? Or do you think there was no ordinary decent people on the "other side"?

    That doesn't make it wrong, you can name bad things that happened in any conflict and make it sound wrong.

    I can tell by your posting that your some kind of pacifist, some people groups of people are put into situations where fighting is the right thing to do and also a small newspaper is hardly the equivalent to real biased media like the BBC which gave extensive coverage to victims of the IRA but virtually ignored children killed by the "security forces".


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    #139
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Of course they're seperate. They're decades apart for a start. Similar actions carried out in different eras as you describe does not mean they are the same conflict. Its a suggestion that is open to ridicule.

    Different time same kind of conflict.


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    #140
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    jack923 wrote: »
    some people groups of people are put into situations where fighting is the right thing to do
    Well terrorism clearly was not the right thing to do, as it failed in the 40's, in the '56-'62 campaign and in the most recent troubles. It only left thousands dead, tens of thousands injured, much property and the economy damaged etc.


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    #141
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    maryishere wrote: »
    Well terrorism clearly was not the right thing to do, as it failed in the 40's, in the '56-'62 campaign and in the most recent troubles. It only left thousands dead, tens of thousands injured, much property and the economy damaged etc.

    The right thing to do is fight back I can't remember this quote came from but here it is.

    "There is no shame in going out fighting and getting your ass kicked, but there is no honor in not fighting at all"


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    #142
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    maryishere wrote: »
    The British army, US army, Russian Army, French army etc are and were the armies of a state. In the case of the British army, US army, French army etc a state which had free elections, democracy etc.
    So tell me, how many Iraqi's for example had a vote to have a say in the British Army coming into and helping in blitzing their Country? How many people of the dozens of Countries Britain went to rule had a say in their Armies actions?
    maryishere wrote: »
    The British army actually is well respected, even by its enemies, as having a sense of fairness second to none.

    Utterly farcical. Can you for one single moment be serious in saying that?

    How much respect do you think people had for an Army who invaded their Country and slaughtered their entire family from a bomb from the air?

    Here's an example of the British armies sense of fairness in Kenya in the 50's:

    'Many tens of thousands were detained and tortured in the camps. Large numbers of men were castrated with pliers. Others were raped, sometimes with the use of knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels and scorpions. Women had similar instruments forced into their vaginas. The guards and officials sliced off ears and fingers, gouged out eyes, mutilated women's breasts with pliers, poured paraffin over people and set them alight. Untold thousands died.'

    They make the IRA look like a bunch of cuddly kittens.

    Are you for real Mary or are you simply on an elaborate wind up?


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    #143
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    jack923 wrote: »
    The right thing to do is fight back I can't remember this quote came from but here it is.

    "There is no shame in going out fighting and getting your ass kicked, but there is no honor in not fighting at all"

    Perhaps it was some uvf person, who decided to retaliate after wave upon wave of Republican bombings/murders/intimidation/sabotage?


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    #144
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Jesus. wrote: »
    are you simply on an elaborate wind up?

    no but your author from Kenya was!


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    #145
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    Jesus. wrote: »
    So tell me, how many Iraqi's for example had a vote to have a say in the British Army coming into and helping in blitzing their Country? How many people of the dozens of Countries Britain went to rule had a say in their Armies actions?



    Utterly farcical. Can you for one single moment be serious in saying that?

    How much respect do you think people had for an Army who invaded their Country and slaughtered their entire family from a bomb from the air?

    Here's an example of the British armies sense of fairness in Kenya in the 50's:

    'Many tens of thousands were detained and tortured in the camps. Large numbers of men were castrated with pliers. Others were raped, sometimes with the use of knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels and scorpions. Women had similar instruments forced into their vaginas. The guards and officials sliced off ears and fingers, gouged out eyes, mutilated women's breasts with pliers, poured paraffin over people and set them alight. Untold thousands died.'

    They make the IRA look like a bunch of cuddly kittens.

    Are you for real Mary or are you simply on an elaborate wind up?

    I chose to ignore that, it's a clear case of BBC syndrome.

    It's a very unfortunate thing one of my close friends also caught it.


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    #146
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    jack923 wrote: »
    Not separate entities whatsoever, mothers of children murdered for being suspected of being a spy, innocent children killed, collins sending the boys round to beat up members of a newspaper outlet.
    jack923 wrote: »
    No I was saying that neither of them were cowards that was my point and I didn't say all actions but a couple of famous ones the evidence all points towards it.

    I don't believe any of the ones you mentioned above were done by double agents just done by morons and I think I should point out that the omagh bombing was done by a different group.

    Are you not contradicting yourself? In one its all IRA are the one entity, then all of a sudden its a different group who carried out Omagh.

    I would see the IRA of the War of Independence as being seperate to the Civil War IRA, the post civil war era ira or the ira/cira/rira of the troubles post good Friday.

    Same name differnt organisations.


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    #147
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Owryan wrote: »
    Against the will of the people of Ireland??? The Republic of Ireland voted to give up any claim on the 6 counties, that was the level of concern for them and the desire to reclaim them.

    As part of the Good Friday settlement and well you know the important distinction. If there was a referendum on a UI it would have passed just as easily but obviously that wasn't on the cards.


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    #148
    jack923
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 418 ✭✭jack923


    Owryan wrote: »
    Are you not contradicting yourself? In one its all IRA are the one entity, then all of a sudden its a different group who carried out Omagh.

    I would see the IRA of the War of Independence as being seperate to the Civil War IRA, the post civil war era ira or the ira/cira/rira of the troubles post good Friday.

    Same name differnt organisations.

    No we were speaking of the Provisional IRA at that time so I wanted to point out to him that this wasn't done by the PIRA.


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    #149
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    I know you're just trying to point-score here but...
    Well...yes. It's terrible that it took over 80 years for the country to recover economically from 1916, the war of independence and civil war.Then when some growth did happen, the political institutions had been undermined so much by politics being defined by a party's stance on those mistakes that we were unable to have proper guidance, regulation and planning...and the whole thing went tìts-up.

    Recover? Recover from what? Ireland was poor as sh1t under British rule at the time. The Capital had some of the worst slums in Europe. There wasn't much to recover back to.


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    #150
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jack923 wrote: »
    No we were speaking of the Provisional IRA at that time so I wanted to point out to him that this wasn't done by the PIRA.

    But it was done by people that were members of the PIRA before the gfa.
    So same people, same organisation, different name


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    #151
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Jesus. wrote: »
    As part of the Good Friday settlement and well you know the important distinction. If there was a referendum on a UI it would have passed just as easily but obviously that wasn't on the cards.

    Not a chance.

    While many sympathise with the romantic notion if a united ireland, they're very aware that Northern Ireland is an unstable basket-case and wouldn't want to open that can of worms.

    People were so unbelievably tired and fed up of constant violence when the good Friday agreement happened.


This discussion has been closed.
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