US rightwing use Ireland as its posterboy to get even lower taxes

While they are admittedly entertaining ads, it's great to see Ireland is the world leader in helping to make the rich richer and make inequality greater. Not.

All our "utilitarian" and "libertarian" corporate welfare parasites, who get on their high horses about social welfare parasites, will be delighted at how Irish government policy is admired by the richest, most parasitic, people on the planet. Not that the aforementioned Irish-born advocates of corporate welfare will ever, ever be among these rich but sure there's something wonderfully serf-like in their defence of the super rich.

US firms toast Irish tax regime in tongue-in-cheek ads

Lowering taxes for the rich is not a skill. If other countries decided to compete against Ireland the Irish would soon admit how short-sighted their low corporation taxes are. I may be alone in this but I look forward to tax harmonisation across the EU and the punishment of states which undermine the creation of better social, health and education infrastructure via tax policies which subsidise the superrich. There are no efficiencies created by making the rich richer.

IrishTrajan

What angers me more is the fake Irish accent than the low corporate tax.

Dirty Dingus McGee

If lowering taxes to attracts more business to the country results in more jobs here I'm all for it.

More jobs means more income , means more spending, means more tax being generated.

If people in other countries don't like it then tough ****.

thisonetaken

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

If lowering taxes to attracts more business to the country results in more jobs here I'm all for it.

More jobs means more income , means more spending, means more tax being generated.

If people in other countries don't like it then tough ****.

Yeah then what happens when every country lowers their tax rate? Will we start paying companies to come here? I suppose we could just hike personal tax rates to make up the shortfall in the overall tax take for the country. Sure people only pay 51% tax at the moment, we could all easily pay 60 or 70% sure. As long as the shareholders of companies are looked after that's the main thing.

buried

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

If lowering taxes to attracts more business to the country results in more jobs here I'm all for it.

More jobs means more income , means more spending, means more tax being generated.

If people in other countries don't like it then tough ****.

Yeah and at the same time, people like myself who as a self employed businessman run an actual indigenous Irish company, making a indigenous Irish product that uses Irish raw materials are taxed and red-taped to a hair-tearing out degree by my own countries establishment institutions. The same institutions that don't want the likes of the Apple corporation to pay the 19 Billion they owe us.
Bring on taxation equality.

Dirty Dingus McGee

thisonetaken wrote: »

Yeah then what happens when every country lowers their tax rate? Will we start paying companies to come here? I suppose we could just hike personal tax rates to make up the shortfall in the overall tax take for the country. Sure people only pay 51% tax at the moment, we could all easily pay 60 or 70% sure. As long as the shareholders of companies are looked after that's the main thing.

But there doesn't look like there is going to be a short fall at the moment and 12.5% of something is better than 40% of nothing (or whatever tax rate we're expected to charge these companies).Until things change keep things as they are.


It's not up to us to lead the way regarding how these companies should be taxed and if it helps the Irish economy then I don't have a problem with it

Dirty Dingus McGee

buried wrote: »

Yeah and at the same time, people like myself who as a self employed businessman run an actual indigenous Irish company, making a indigenous Irish product that uses Irish raw materials are taxed and red-taped to a hair-tearing out degree by my own countries establishment institutions. The same institutions that don't want the likes of the Apple corporation to pay the 19 Billion they owe us.
Bring on taxation equality.

How many people are you employing or have the potential to employ compared to these multinationals?

It may not be fair but you have zero leverage compared to Apple etc.The big guys always win.

20Cent

Some of these companies are really taking the piss. They are actually costing us money and not employing anyone. Hear about this Mars capital lot. Feckin hell

buried

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

How many people are you employing or have the potential to employ compared to these multinationals?

It may not be fair but you have zero leverage compared to Apple etc.The big guys always win.

Of course the big guy always wins. The big guy will always f**k off too when it doesn't suit his big arse. I'll always be here, as I love my country and want to see my fellow citizens thrive. The likes of Apple doesn't. Shareholders is what it cares about. F**k that.

IrishTrajan

thisonetaken wrote: »

Yeah then what happens when every country lowers their tax rate? Will we start paying companies to come here? I suppose we could just hike personal tax rates to make up the shortfall in the overall tax take for the country. Sure people only pay 51% tax at the moment, we could all easily pay 60 or 70% sure. As long as the shareholders of companies are looked after that's the main thing.

The problem with that is we don't have many large indigenous corporations, so having a high tax means they'll choose to invest in somewhere else instead. I'll give you an example. 12.5% of 100 is better than 100% of 0. Would you rather the Government has to make up the short-fall of the 12.5% or have to make up the short-fall from the 100%? I know which one I'd choose.

Ireland needs a low corporate tax rate to keep companies investing here.

thisonetaken

thisonetaken wrote: »

Yeah then what happens when every country lowers their tax rate? Will we start paying companies to come here?

This. The current low corporation tax rate is nothing if not profoundly myopic. Any country can compete in this race to the bottom. These jobs can move in the morning, just as Dell moved from Ireland to eastern Europe a few years ago. These firms have no loyalty to this society. None.

Meanwhile, we have still failed (outside dairy) to create any world-class indigenous Irish industries. Where is the long-term benefit for Irish industry of this dependence on foreign firms locating here?

IrishTrajan

Deleted User wrote: »

This. The current low corporation tax rate is nothing if not profoundly myopic. Any country can compete in this race to the bottom. These jobs can move in the morning, just as Dell moved from Ireland to eastern Europe a few years ago. These firms have no loyalty to this society. None.

We are more reliant on foreign investment than countries like the UK or Germany. They have a huge number of companies. We need foreign investment to make up for our disadvantage of being a small economy.

The British and the Germans don't have the political stomach to drop their headline tax rate lower than us, but that doesn't stop other large countries from having a lower effective tax rate than us. For example, France had a 7.5% effective tax rate - ours was 12.4%.

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile, we have still failed (outside dairy) to create any world-class indigenous Irish industries. Where is the long-term benefit for Irish industry of this dependence on foreign firms locating here?

I would absolutely love to see larger Irish firms but we're simply too small an economy. The benefit is that we've attracted quite a large number of companies in IT and medical/pharmaceutical production - and we're likely to benefit tremendously from Brexit if banks in London can't get their banking passport.

1000 jobs and 12.5% of their profit is definitely better than 0 jobs and 100% of no profit.

It's not fair, but it's how you have to play the game.

Mardy Bum

1000 jobs and 12.5% of their profit is definitely better than 0 jobs and 100% of no profit.

It's not fair, but it's how you have to play the game.

They don't actually pay 12.5% they pay about 2-3%. Starbucks I think only paid 4.5k tax one year after making "no profits". It is a joke.

Ireland gets jobs now but also contributes to the corporatist future which awaits humanity.

IrishTrajan

Mardy Bum wrote: »

They don't actually pay 12.5% they pay about 2-3%. Starbucks I think only paid 4.5k tax one year after making "no profits". It is a joke.

Whatever it is that they do pay, we know that they employ people, which is the most important part.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Ireland gets jobs now but also contributes to the corporatist future which awaits humanity.

Corporations are nowhere near as strong as they used to be - you know they used to be able to hire armies (British East India Company) or lobby Governments to invade countries outright (gun-boat diplomacy), right?

Corporations are amoral pieces of shít, but there's no need to have such a doom and gloom out-look. They're necessary for the survival of our economy.

20Cent

Mardy Bum wrote: »

They don't actually pay 12.5% they pay about 2-3%. Starbucks I think only paid 4.5k tax one year after making "no profits". It is a joke.

Ireland gets jobs now but also contributes to the corporatist future which awaits humanity.

Wonder how many Irish coffee shops went out of business because of Starbucks.

ancapailldorcha

thisonetaken wrote: »

Yeah then what happens when every country lowers their tax rate? Will we start paying companies to come here? I suppose we could just hike personal tax rates to make up the shortfall in the overall tax take for the country. Sure people only pay 51% tax at the moment, we could all easily pay 60 or 70% sure. As long as the shareholders of companies are looked after that's the main thing.

Where has this happened?

Placid_Casual

20Cent wrote: »

Wonder how many Irish coffee shops went out of business because of Starbucks.

In Dublin at least, there have been plenty of new independent cafes opening in recent years as people have become more interested in coffee. Some of this interest would have been initially stimulated by the likes of Starbucks - it's not necessarily a zero sum game. McDonalds and Burger King haven't led to the death of the Irish chipper.
Having said that, I do find the sheer number of Starbucks around town irritating.

20Cent

Placid_Casual wrote: »

In Dublin at least, there have been plenty of new independent cafes opening in recent years as people have become more interested in coffee. Some of this interest would have been initially stimulated by the likes of Starbucks - it's not necessarily a zero sum game. McDonalds and Burger King haven't led to the death of the Irish chipper.
Having said that, I do find the sheer number of Starbucks around town irritating.

never said it was a zero sum game. But it does seem very unfair to Irish coffee shops that have to compete with a company paying practically nothing in tax. It isn't really doing the country any good and harming real competition.

ancapailldorcha

20Cent wrote: »

never said it was a zero sum game. But it does seem very unfair to Irish coffee shops that have to compete with a company paying practically nothing in tax. It isn't really doing the country any good and harming real competition.

I don't remember the coffee shop scene being all that big when I was in Dublin. If companies aren't paying their corporation tax then that's something for the government to sort out. If a company isn't paying their tax, the government needs to sort that out.

20Cent

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't remember the coffee shop scene being all that big when I was in Dublin. If companies aren't paying their corporation tax then that's something for the government to sort out. If a company isn't paying their tax, the government needs to sort that out.

I'm just questioning this uncritical assumption that all this multinational business in Ireland is automatically a good thing. In some cases such at Starbucks it could be harming the economy.

ancapailldorcha

20Cent wrote: »

I'm just questioning this uncritical assumption that all this multinational business in Ireland is automatically a good thing. In some cases such at Starbucks it could be harming the economy.

Of course it is. Where are all the jobs going to come from to raise tax revenue for public services and welfare otherwise? I'm not condoning corporate tax avoidance but it's something for the government to sort out as they're the ones allowing it.

Permabear

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20Cent

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course it is. Where are all the jobs going to come from to raise tax revenue for public services and welfare otherwise? I'm not condoning corporate tax avoidance but it's something for the government to sort out as they're the ones allowing it.

If Starbucks disappeared tomorrow their locations would be taken up by other businesses probably contributing a lot more then 4K to the exchequer and employing just as many people.

There are a lot of post box type businesses employing hardly anyone doing business through Ireland contributing nothing.

Also vulture funds like this we could do without.

Stephen Donnolly in the Dail.


Mars Capital - the company that bought the mortgages of Irish families from IBRC at a 58% discount - is owned by a children's charity. From Leaders Questions: "Last week I showed how a U.S. vulture fund structured its Irish subsidiary, Mars Capital, to avoid paying taxes in Ireland on its Irish profits. I now believe that these vulture funds are about to pull off the largest avoidance of tax on Irish profits in the history of the State.

Irish charities are being used to play a key part in this tax avoidance. Mars Capital is owned by a registered charity called the Matheson Foundation. The stated mission of the charity is ‘helping Irish children to fulfil their potential.’ It contributes to causes including ISPCC, Barnardos and the Temple Street Children’s Hospital. The Charity does not mention its ownership of Mars Capital. One reporter I spoke with believes the charity may own more than two hundred companies. So at a time when public faith in the charity sector has been rocked yet again, a children’s charity is being used by a vulture fund to avoid paying tax."

ancapailldorcha

20Cent wrote: »

If Starbucks disappeared tomorrow their locations would be taken up by other businesses probably contributing a lot more then 4K to the exchequer and employing just as many people.

Would these businesses be as successful? Would they shift as much coffee to keep the VAT, rents, etc... coming in.

20Cent wrote: »

There are a lot of post box type businesses employing hardly anyone doing business through Ireland contributing nothing.

Really? Where?

20Cent wrote: »

Also vulture funds like this we could do without.

Stephen Donnolly in the Dail....

You're shifting the goalposts now.

Permabear

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dotsman

Deleted User wrote: »

While they are admittedly entertaining ads, it's great to see Ireland is the world leader in helping to make the rich richer and make inequality greater. Not.

All our "utilitarian" and "libertarian" corporate welfare parasites, who get on their high horses about social welfare parasites, will be delighted at how Irish government policy is admired by the richest, most parasitic, people on the planet. Not that the aforementioned Irish-born advocates of corporate welfare will ever, ever be among these rich but sure there's something wonderfully serf-like in their defence of the super rich.

US firms toast Irish tax regime in tongue-in-cheek ads

Lowering taxes for the rich is not a skill. If other countries decided to compete against Ireland the Irish would soon admit how short-sighted their low corporation taxes are. I may be alone in this but I look forward to tax harmonisation across the EU and the punishment of states which undermine the creation of better social, health and education infrastructure via tax policies which subsidise the superrich. There are no efficiencies created by making the rich richer.

Corporate tax is a tax a business pays on its profit, not people. This has nothing to do with "rich people" - I don't understand how you can even make the connection.

There are strong arguments to be made for completely eliminating corporate tax and applying tax only to personal income. That looks like it would lead to a much better world.

As for the ad itself. That accent is both humiliating for all Irish people and the actor involved.

Its dead Jim

I find it laughable that Ireland is such a threat to the US. They're selling idea to the same party which was against teaching children critical thinking skills so I'm sure it will convince some of them.

ancapailldorcha

Its dead Jim wrote: »

I find it laughable that Ireland is such a threat to the US. They're selling idea to the same party which was against teaching children critical thinking skills so I'm sure it will convince some of them.

Ireland also has access to a single market of half a million people at the moment and has an English-speaking population to go with it. Don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a "threat" to the US as many companies still operate in the US as that's where a lot of highly skilled people are at the moment. Ireland, however is very well placed to offer an excellent point of access to the largest trading bloc in the world.

20Cent

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would these businesses be as successful? Would they shift as much coffee to keep the VAT, rents, etc... coming in.

They are in prime locations. One would have to believe that a Starbucks coffee shop is the only business that could use that space. Not realistic.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Really? Where?

Mostly the IFSC they are called brass plate or letter box companies. Located inIreland for tax purposes not employing anyone.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You're shifting the goalposts now

If you think so.
It's an example of a multinational using Ireland's tax laws contributing nothing, probably costing us money in fact. Fits in with the thread title.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Starbucks tend to be in very good locations.

Its dead Jim

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ireland also has access to a single market of half a million people at the moment and has an English-speaking population to go with it. Don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a "threat" to the US as many companies still operate in the US as that's where a lot of highly skilled people are at the moment. Ireland, however is very well placed to offer an excellent point of access to the largest trading bloc in the world.

Sure but they would still probably want access to the EU. I could understand something like this happening in an EU country where we are competing with each other as an EU base.

ancapailldorcha

20Cent wrote: »

They are in prime locations. One would have to believe that a Starbucks coffee shop is the only business that could use that space. Not realistic.

So there were plenty of coffee shops and all these spaces were generating profit?

20Cent wrote: »

Mostly the IFSC they are called brass plate or letter box companies. Located inIreland for tax purposes not employing anyone.

Not true of all multinationals though.

20Cent wrote: »

If you think so.
It's an example of a multinational using Ireland's tax laws contributing nothing, probably costing us money in fact. Fits in with the thread title.

Income tax, VAT, property taxes, etc...

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Coffee shop was just an example. These are prime spaces being used by a company that paid 4.5k tax last year. If these were used for anything else that would generate more returns than that it would be of more benefit to the country than this particular chain. Multinationals are not necessarily a net gain for the country.

20Cent

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So there were plenty of coffee shops and all these spaces were generating profit?

So these spaces would be left empty star-bucks is the only business that would use them?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Not true of all multinationals though.

Didn't say all.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Income tax, VAT, property taxes, etc...

[/quote]
4.5k income tax. Any tenant would pay the rest.

Mardy Bum

Permabear wrote: »

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Very persuasive but utter rhetoric. A cafe is a cafe whether it sells tea or coffee. We have always had cafes. Starbucks have the prime real estate and cafes as a business are only viable in a few select areas. That is why cafes constantly close and someone else tries to open the place and also inevitably fail (which is similar to bars and restaurants).
Starbucks lie about not making any profit despite their prime locations. Starbucks aim is to monopolise the market on any street they set up on by setting up another Starbucks in close proximity. How can any Irish company survive if the only place they can set up is in the Crumlin shopping centre?

Permabear

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Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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You are either being disingenuous or dumb. Not all multinationals are necessarily a good thing. In some cases our tax laws are causing disadvantage to Irish companies and the Irish taxpayers. Can't make it clearer. Go back to telling us how Starbucks invented coffee or some such.

IrishTrajan

20Cent wrote: »

You are either being disingenuous or dumb. Not all multinationals are necessarily a good thing. In some cases our tax laws are causing disadvantage to Irish companies and the Irish taxpayers. Can't make it clearer. Go back to telling us how Starbucks invented coffee or some such.

I am not sure if you're being wilfully ignorant or not. Does Starbucks pay wages? Does Starbucks pay rent? If the answer to these questions is yes, then they're providing a direct benefit to the economy.

You like to say anyone else could replace them - then why, pray tell, didn't someone set up Starbucks here before Starbucks even came here?

Permabear

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Mardy Bum

Permabear wrote: »

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I think all anyone is asking is that they pay their tax fairly like the vast majority of people. As pointed out in this thread there are US corporations masking themselves as charities and buying property and not paying tax on it.
We all have to pay tax , the government still have FEMPI enacted and have used it just today against tens of thousands of public sector employees. If these companies actually paid what they owe there would be very few people giving out.

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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If you are going to quote someone don't leave out parts of a sentence to change the meaning. What is the point of doing that!!!!!!

Mardy Bum

Permabear wrote: »

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Well you see there is the rub. The people working for these companies are a lot smarter than you average td so I have little faith in this ever being addressed (see DOB).

What do you make of Starbucks 4.5k corporation tax collection?

Junkyard Tom

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Does Starbucks pay wages? Does Starbucks pay rent? If the answer to these questions is yes, then they're providing a direct benefit to the economy.

That's laughably simplistic reasoning.

Permabear

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feargale

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

If lowering taxes to attracts more business to the country results in more jobs here I'm all for it.

More jobs means more income , means more spending, means more tax being generated.

If people in other countries don't like it then tough ****.

You don't see the long game. Think below cost selling. Ultimately the consumer pays more when the competitor is put out of business and the survivor has the customer by the cobblers.
And this "tough****" attitude reflects no credit, whether coming from an individual or a state. In the long run it offers neither luck nor grace. Pirates can only be defeated by concerted action.

IrishTrajan

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's laughably simplistic reasoning.

Because we're dealing with laughably simplistic people. It was put in more eloquent terms by others in this thread yet the message didn't sink in.

20Cent

Looked up Mars Capitals address.
It's a po box.
Maybe they are employing tiny people to work in there.

http://www.marscapital.ie/contact-us/

Permabear

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