Landlord adding a refuse charge in apartment complex

nothing

I'll try to keep this brief but factual, having trouble finding information.

I rent an apartment, in a complex with 60+ other dwellings. Last year, a company bought the complex and a new management company was put in place.

They included in the new leases that waste charges were the tenents' responsibility, though up until now there have been no charges. As expected, they now wish to charge, which I have no issue with in principle. They want €20 a month per dwelling. I'm not sure what the occupancy rate is exactly, but it's certainly over two thirds.

What I'm wondering is -

How much notice should be given for this new monthly charge (if there are rules and/or guidelines at all)?

Am I entitled to see a bill of some kind to verify that my €20 a month is actually paying off a waste charge bill?

Can I negotiate the amount given that I am a single occupancy dwelling and the majority of other dwellings have 2 to 4 occupants?

I'm not trying to weasel my way out of paying, I just want to be sure that I pay a fair amount since I do not have the option of shopping around.

Thanks for any help and advice.

P. Breathnach

I presume that up to now you have been paying management charges, and that these have included the cost of refuse disposal. I also take it that there was no reduction given to you because of single occupancy.

I suspect that what has happened is that the owners have decided to break these charges out of the general management charge. They are responsible for the charges on the vacant units, and might be using this mechanism to reduce their costs (on the basis that vacant units do not use refuse disposal services).

You have signed an agreement, and you are bound by it. There is a reasonable case for them to have to prove to you that what you are being asked to pay is justified.

nothing

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I presume that up to now you have been paying management charges, and that these have included the cost of refuse disposal. I also take it that there was no reduction given to you because of single occupancy.

I suspect that what has happened is that the owners have decided to break these charges out of the general management charge. They are responsible for the charges on the vacant units, and might be using this mechanism to reduce their costs (on the basis that vacant units do not use refuse disposal services).

You have signed an agreement, and you are bound by it. There is a reasonable case for them to have to prove to you that what you are being asked to pay is justified.

To date there have been no management charges for me (or any other tenant afaik). There was a rent increase last summer which was partly due to running costs of the complex, and indeed there was no reduction based on my single occupancy. Unfortunately the new management do not provide the same level of service as the previous, however I can understand them making cuts to improve their profits.

The writing was on the wall when I signed the new lease, and the refuse charge came a lot later than I anticipated. I plan to email them today about it.

P. Breathnach

Sorry, I put things together wrongly in my own head. I am sure that there are management charges, but they are not levied on tenants. I can stick with my idea that they are breaking out the refuse disposal charges in order to shift a cost from themselves to their tenants.

Angel2016

nothing wrote: »

I'll try to keep this brief but factual, having trouble finding information.

I rent an apartment, in a complex with 60+ other dwellings. Last year, a company bought the complex and a new management company was put in place.

They included in the new leases that waste charges were the tenents' responsibility, though up until now there have been no charges. As expected, they now wish to charge, which I have no issue with in principle. They want €20 a month per dwelling. I'm not sure what the occupancy rate is exactly, but it's certainly over two thirds.

What I'm wondering is -

How much notice should be given for this new monthly charge (if there are rules and/or guidelines at all)?

Am I entitled to see a bill of some kind to verify that my €20 a month is actually paying off a waste charge bill?

Can I negotiate the amount given that I am a single occupancy dwelling and the majority of other dwellings have 2 to 4 occupants?

I'm not trying to weasel my way out of paying, I just want to be sure that I pay a fair amount since I do not have the option of shopping around.

Thanks for any help and advice.

All management companies at the start of the year give the owners of the apartment an invoice and along with that a breakdown of the charges that make up the maintenance fee I would suggest you ask for a copy of that and you will see if they are charging seperately for waste disposal this sounds bizarre to me as I own a one bed in a complex of 60 apartments which was bought over last year not my building but all of the other apartments and units around it in D24 and we just pay for the waste disposal in the fee so if they were charging separate I would want to check its not on the breakdown as that would be double charging it if you like.

P. Breathnach

Angel2016 wrote: »

All management companies at the start of the year give the owners of the apartment an invoice and along with that a breakdown of the charges that make up the maintenance fee I would suggest you ask for a copy of that and you will see if they are charging seperately for waste disposal this sounds bizarre to me as I own a one bed in a complex of 60 apartments which was bought over last year not my building but all of the other apartments and units around it in D24 and we just pay for the waste disposal in the fee so if they were charging separate I would want to check its not on the breakdown as that would be double charging it if you like.

You're making the same mistake that I did in my earlier response! OP is a tenant, not an owner.

Yes, it is an unusual arrangement, and perhaps bizarre is a good word to describe it.

Angel2016

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You're making the same mistake that I did in my earlier response! OP is a tenant, not an owner.

Yes, it is an unusual arrangement, and perhaps bizarre is a good word to describe it.

I understand he is a tenant but if they want him to pay this extra money then he is entitled to see the breakdown of the charges from the maintenance company so he can see that he is not being ripped off, if I was asking my tenant to pay for the waste disposal because it was being charged extra on my invoice and she asked to see the documentation I would have no problem showing her.

P. Breathnach

Angel2016 wrote: »

I understand he is a tenant but if they want him to pay this extra money then he is entitled to see the breakdown of the charges from the maintenance company so he can see that he is not being ripped off, if I was asking my tenant to pay for the waste disposal because it was being charged extra on my invoice and she asked to see the documentation I would have no problem showing her.

Agreed.

intheclouds

Angel2016 wrote: »

I understand he is a tenant but if they want him to pay this extra money then he is entitled to see the breakdown of the charges from the maintenance company so he can see that he is not being ripped off, if I was asking my tenant to pay for the waste disposal because it was being charged extra on my invoice and she asked to see the documentation I would have no problem showing her.

The tenants only relationship is with the landlord and he isnt entitled to see any detail on the changes the management company set.

The_Chap

You'll probably find this in response to the inevitable change to the pay by weight system, mgt fees for an apartment would normally include the refuse collection as it would currently be a set fee, not so in the future

P. Breathnach

intheclouds wrote: »

The tenants only relationship is with the landlord and he isnt entitled to see any detail on the changes the management company set.

If he is directly liable for refuse disposal charges, he has a right to information on that element of the package.

nothing

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If he is directly liable for refuse disposal charges, he has a right to information on that element of the package.

To make it a bit clearer (I hope) the management company also acts as agent for the landlord, so they deal with all rent, tenancy issues etc.

intheclouds

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If he is directly liable for refuse disposal charges, he has a right to information on that element of the package.

Why? Tenants wouldnt normally be privy to the break down of what management fees are paying for?

Really the landlord is making a mistake to ask for it separately and should just be taking it from the rent. Although perhaps as rent cannot be reviewed for 27 months there is no choice but to charge the tenant directly.

intheclouds

nothing wrote: »

To make it a bit clearer (I hope) the management company also acts as agent for the landlord, so they deal with all rent, tenancy issues etc.

Be careful on the terminology - the management company comprises of the owners of the units. The managing agent is the company they employ to look after the upkeep and maintenance etc..

In this case the managing agent is also the letting agent?

Mrs OBumble

OP, rather than referring to them as the management company, just call them your landlord. The fact that it's a company who owns the whole complex rather than an individual is irrelevant.

IMHO, if you've got an existing tenancy agreement (either lease or part 4) which includes refuse charges, then the rent cannot be increased until two years after your last increase. Changes in the price or pricing structure for services which the landlord uses to meet his her obligations (refuse, insurance, management fee) are not your problem.

If they want to increase the rent by only E20 per month - then you simply compare this to the rest of the rental market in your area.

nothing

intheclouds wrote: »

Be careful on the terminology - the management company comprises of the owners of the units. The managing agent is the company they employ to look after the upkeep and maintenance etc..

In this case the managing agent is also the letting agent?

Apologies, it is a managing and letting agent. They have informed me of this new charge, it's to be lodged into the landlord's account directly every month on the same date as rent but as a separate transfer marked as refuse.

It is in my lease that I'm responsible for waste charges, it's the amount, the twelve day notice and the fact that I've no idea how the amount was calculated that are bugging me (waiting on an email response). Plus the fact it's been included for the last 6 years.

SteM

nothing wrote: »

Apologies, it is a managing and letting agent. They have informed me of this new charge, it's to be lodged into the landlord's account directly every month on the same date as rent but as a separate transfer marked as refuse.

It is in my lease that I'm responsible for waste charges, it's the amount, the twelve day notice and the fact that I've no idea how the amount was calculated that are bugging me (waiting on an email response). Plus the fact it's been included for the last 6 years.

Whatever about your concern over cost and the amount of notice that you've gotten - you should be happy that you've received free waste disposal for the last 6 years rather than complain that you had it free and you have to pay it now.

If it's in your lease that you're liable for the cost then you could have been charged for the last 6 years. Glass half full.

Lux23

They should be giving you reasonable notice and 12 days notice would not be enough. 30 days is probably standard for a change in most contracts. Plus there should be some transparency around how they came to the €20 figure. Look at this way, if you paid your waste charges directly and the company only gave you 12 days notice then they would be in breach of consumer protection legislation, so I think the management company has the same obligations here.

Lux23

SteM wrote: »

Whatever about your concern over cost and the amount of notice that you've gotten - you should be happy that you've received free waste disposal for the last 6 years rather than complain that you had it free and you have to pay it now.

If it's in your lease that you're liable for the cost then you could have been charged for the last 6 years. Glass half full.

This is nonsense. A lease can't override the law if the terms contained are unlawful.

nothing

SteM wrote: »

Whatever about your concern over cost and the amount of notice that you've gotten - you should be happy that you've received free waste disposal for the last 6 years rather than complain that you had it free and you have to pay it now.

If it's in your lease that you're liable for the cost then you could have been charged for the last 6 years. Glass half full.

I'm perfectly happy that it's been free up to now, and I have no problem paying for it, I just want to be sure I'm not being screwed over. €240 a year for a single person seems excessive to me.

intheclouds

If I were you I would contact the prtb about this.

Its an increase in rent that you are being asked to label as something other than an increase in rent.

If they want you to pay refuse charges directly then tell them you will deal directly with the refuse company.

P. Breathnach

SteM wrote: »

Whatever about your concern over cost and the amount of notice that you've gotten - you should be happy that you've received free waste disposal for the last 6 years rather than complain that you had it free and you have to pay it now.

If it's in your lease that you're liable for the cost then you could have been charged for the last 6 years. Glass half full.

It's fairly standard that tenants do not receive free waste disposal services. It's included in their lease agreements, and paid for in the rent.

The landlord is now breaking this out and charging separately for it. OP has signed a new lease accepting this.

Like any consumer of services, he is entitled to evidence that the charge is correctly calculated.

SteM

nothing wrote: »

I'm perfectly happy that it's been free up to now, and I have no problem paying for it, I just want to be sure I'm not being screwed over. €240 a year for a single person seems excessive to me.

You said 'Plus the fact it's been included for the last 6 years.' which lead me to believe that you were not happy paying for it now. Edit: I agree €240 is taking the pee. We pay approx €120 for our 3 bed house at the moment.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's fairly standard that tenants do not receive free waste disposal services. It's included in their lease agreements, and paid for in the rent.

The landlord is now breaking this out and charging separately for it. OP has signed a new lease accepting this.

Like any consumer of services, he is entitled to evidence that the charge is correctly calculated.

I didn't say he wasn't? Has the OP contacted anyone and been refused this breakdown yet?

Angel2016

intheclouds wrote: »

The tenants only relationship is with the landlord and he isnt entitled to see any detail on the changes the management company set.

Well I can guarantee you he is paying the management company fee within the amount he pays for rent and that includes all waste disposal its standard and when the invoices are given out to the LL / owners they get the breakdown also so that they can see where the figure they have to pay has come up I never heard a management company charging separate for waste disposal so yes I would insist on seeing proof of this extra charge you he / she is the tenant and they have rights.

intheclouds

nothing wrote: »

Unfortunately the new management do not provide the same level of service as the previous, however I can understand them making cuts to improve their profits.

Sorry I just noticed this.

Management companies do not operate at a profit. Any money left over after running the development is supposed to go into the sinking fund which in turn is used to fund things like large irregular maintenance jobs (say, resurfacing the carpark) or unexpected costs.

The managing agent is paid an annual fee to run the development. That fee is agreed up front and the agent cant decide to cut costs to increase how much they receive.

intheclouds

Angel2016 wrote: »

Well I can guarantee you he is paying the management company fee within the amount he pays for rent and that includes all waste disposal its standard and when the invoices are given out to the LL / owners they get the breakdown also so that they can see where the figure they have to pay has come up I never heard a management company charging separate for waste disposal so yes I would insist on seeing proof of this extra charge you he / she is the tenant and they have rights.

I dont disagree with any of this.

I would be inclined to think that what the landlord is doing here is against the letter of the law and he is doing it because he cant do a straightforward rent increase for 27 months.

Ive never heard of a management company dealing with waste disposal charges outside of the annual fee either - however that is not to say that it doesnt happen.

Lantus

This is odd.

If the management company (omc) has a contractual obligation to pay for bins then its part of the primary lease when the unit was purchased and can't be changed.

You can ask the agent for budgets and ask about bin charges. They should give some info.

A 20 flat fee for everyone? Did I read that correctly. If so who is collecting this fee? The omc still? The landlord can't ask a tenant to pay a charge on the property other than rent unless the tenant organises it direct with a supplier. Like gas or electric for example.

This is still a service fee and is therefore rent irrespective of what part of the fee the owner has decided to focus on.

I doubt the landlord has been billed for an extra 20 quid. It would require an egm and revised budgets to be issued to all members.

Does this sound about right op?

QuiteInterestin

Hi OP
I had a similar-ish problem when the apartment block I lived in stopped providing refuse service as a lot of owners were not paying their management fees.

I contacted Threshold who confirmed what I had found online, while a landlord does not have to pay for refuse service, they do have to provide you with somewhere to store your rubbish. In my case the landlord eventually agreed to provide me with two wheelie bins with padlocks which were kept in the communal bin area. As a single occupant I had very little rubbish, so I would store the rubbish in the wheelie bins and about every 1/2 months when I have enough to fill a full bag, I would buy the bin bags from one of the local refuse companies (about 7 euro for general waste and 2.50 for a recycling bag). Could you present this to your landlord as a possible alternative? If they're already paying for the refuse collection as part of the management fees and are using it as an excuse to increase the rent, they might back down rather then have to provide separate bins for everyone.

The_Conductor

QuiteInterestin wrote: »

Hi OP
I had a similar-ish problem when the apartment block I lived in stopped providing refuse service as a lot of owners were not paying their management fees.

I contacted Threshold who confirmed what I had found online, while a landlord does not have to pay for refuse service, they do have to provide you with somewhere to store your rubbish. In my case the landlord eventually agreed to provide me with two wheelie bins with padlocks which were kept in the communal bin area. As a single occupant I had very little rubbish, so I would store the rubbish in the wheelie bins and about every 1/2 months when I have enough to fill a full bag, I would buy the bin bags from one of the local refuse companies (about 7 euro for general waste and 2.50 for a recycling bag). Could you present this to your landlord as a possible alternative? If they're already paying for the refuse collection as part of the management fees and are using it as an excuse to increase the rent, they might back down rather then have to provide separate bins for everyone.

Very few apartment complexes will countenance wheelie bins for tenants- aside from any other reason- there are storage issues- not to mention a cohort of tenants who will abuse the situation. Best practice is to rent large commercial bins- a couple of general ones, one recycling and one brown- and they're charged on a per-lift basis which is equally split among all units.

Its becoming the norm this year- as AGMs are held- for refuse to be stripped out of general management charges- on the polluter pays principle- however, it is generally unfeasible to try and give separate waste facilities to each and every unit- so a communal system continues..........

There isn't a perfect system- they try to implement something that suits the majority- rather than the minority- its one of the downsides of communal living..........

QuiteInterestin

The_Conductor wrote:

Very few apartment complexes will countenance wheelie bins for tenants- aside from any other reason- there are storage issues- not to mention a cohort of tenants who will abuse the situation. Best practice is to rent large commercial bins- a couple of general ones, one recycling and one brown- and they're charged on a per-lift basis which is equally split among all units.

It definitely wasn't the ideal solution, but it was the best I could get from the landlord. It was a small apartment block so many of the other landlords/owners did as you suggested and pooled together and paid for larger commercial bins that only they had the key for.
Since the landlord is legally obliged to provide an area to store refuse, if the OP informs them of this and what the alternatives are, they may realise it's too much hassle to get management company permission to provide separate refuse storage for their tenant and just agree to pay the refuse.

Angel2016

Most large complexes will have bin rooms with the commercial large bins so they management company factor this into their figures when working out fees.
You are paying rent you are not living there for free so I am sure the fees have been factored into your rent amount, request to see the breakdown of charges of query it with someone dont let it go.

nothing

Finally got a response from the agent:

Apologies for the delay in response, there is no specific notice period for applying a refuse charge. With rent increases etc. there is certain notice periods. Having access to refuse disposal is a requirement, it does not state anywhere however that landlords are required to pay for this. It was a charge the landlord shouldn’t have been paying all along, all tenancies even those in local authority housing pay for their own refuse. I understand it’s a change, and you may feel it’s expensive however it is five euro weekly, to have access to both refuse & recycling. I really do not think you will get better quotes anywhere else, I say this as we are constantly searching the market for the best deals etc. and €5.00 a week for a tenant is excellent.



We cannot charge each tenancy differently, it is a set fee for each apartment regardless of the number of occupants.



If you want to give me a call to discuss, please do.

I think I now need to do some heavy lifting and research waste disposal prices around so that I can refute the cost. (In my email I referred to it as €240 a year, here they note it's €5 a week which I find very patronising).

I also feel I should argue against the set fee per apartment, given that this is a) a new charge and b) I doubt that's how they are charged.

They did not at all respond to my request for a bill or breakdown and brushed off the notice period.

Thanks for all the advice so far, any more in light of this is welcome!

intheclouds

Have you contacted PRTB about this?

Id be asking them about it before replying tbh.

How much it is is irrelevant if a landlord cannot add extra charges to a tenancy under tenancy law.

nothing

An update on this. I contacted RTB who told me to contact Threshold.

Threshold are of the opinion that a precedent was set of the refuse being included in the rent and that I'm not obliged to pay extra now. There's been a bit of back and forth with myself and the agent this week about it, and I've followed the advice I got from Threshold.

The agent had sent a reminder letter which stated that access to the bins would be removed if non payment continued, threshold pointed out that that would be a breach of minimum standards. Passed this point on to the agent.

Just waiting now to see if the fight continues!

Michael D Not Higgins

nothing wrote: »

An update on this. I contacted RTB who told me to contact Threshold.

Threshold are of the opinion that a precedent was set of the refuse being included in the rent and that I'm not obliged to pay extra now. There's been a bit of back and forth with myself and the agent this week about it, and I've followed the advice I got from Threshold.

The agent had sent a reminder letter which stated that access to the bins would be removed if non payment continued, threshold pointed out that that would be a breach of minimum standards. Passed this point on to the agent.

Just waiting now to see if the fight continues!

By all means you should continue to fight the cost however, just be aware that during your next rent review the landlord will try to recoup the cost there.

Caliden

nothing wrote: »

Apologies, it is a managing and letting agent. They have informed me of this new charge, it's to be lodged into the landlord's account directly every month on the same date as rent but as a separate transfer marked as refuse.

It is in my lease that I'm responsible for waste charges, it's the amount, the twelve day notice and the fact that I've no idea how the amount was calculated that are bugging me (waiting on an email response). Plus the fact it's been included for the last 6 years.

The bolded part just seems odd to me. It like a loophole to move some of the management fees on to the tenant.

If the lease says it's your responsibility to pay for refuse, then why should you pay the landlord?
20 euro per unit seems like a very arbitrary and rounded amount for communal refuse.

If there are 60 units like you said, that's 1200 a month for a few skips.


Found this comment from an older thread on this topic:
"If the refuse charges are included in the management fee then the landlord is getting full tax relief on the management fee and can only charge you for the bins IF he doesn't claim tax relief on that portion of the fee. Mentioning that might encourage him to rethink his position!"