Star Trek Enterprise - Is it that Bad?

ScumLord

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

isn't that basically what ST2009 is?

Not really, it's exactly the same but with better effects and less story.

I'm talking about a complete reworking of the star trek universe based on what we know now. How everything works, the behaviour of all the different species, all the technology needs an update.

imitation

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd like to see star trek completely reimagined from the ground up. It's basically a 40 year old sci fi concept now, it's outdated in many ways.

Ah but would be star trek then? The problem with sci fi now is that people are alot more knowledgeable and by tye time you have satisfied the modern requirements for a TV show, its hard to make a space based show.

People love dark violent plots now, doesn't sit well with Star Trek, although the way they were never too put out by a few redshirts getting blasted every episode seemed pretty sociopathic.

AtomicHorror

ScumLord wrote: »

Not really, it's exactly the same but with better effects and less story.

I'm talking about a complete reworking of the star trek universe based on what we know now. How everything works, the behaviour of all the different species, all the technology needs an update.

I love Star Trek, but I often wonder whether updating now it is akin to trying to update Jules Verne. You can either try to make it relevant by stripping away much of what makes it recognisable, or you can embrace it's nature and hope that the audience follows you.

I think perhaps a TV adaptation of The Culture would do a better job of exploring some of the concepts Star Trek used to tackle, but without having to contend with explaining away a big messy canon.

Bacchus

I'm not onboard with wholesale changes to Star Trek but the new series need to freshen things up. For a start, the history of humanity according to the show needs to account for where we are now and stop basing things off of what was imagined in the 60s. In the same vein, the technology of Star Trek needs to be reimagined based off of the advances in technology we've seen in the past 50 years. To do this means separating from the established Star Trek universe as everything has to remain consistent with the different time periods there. If it were me in charge, I'd keep the themes, the spirit, the classic alien cultures and just set it in a world 200 years from now that feels like it would be 200 years from now. Also, new characters. I don't want to see a reimagined Kirk, Spock, Picard, Data, etc. Keep the Enterprise though

ScumLord

imitation wrote: »

People love dark violent plots now, doesn't sit well with Star Trek, although the way they were never too put out by a few redshirts getting blasted every episode seemed pretty sociopathic.

I don't know about that. TV producers latch onto trends and ape what's popular. the problem with doing that is they end up making a show of the moment that doesn't stand the test of time.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I love Star Trek, but I often wonder whether updating now it is akin to trying to update Jules Verne. You can either try to make it relevant by stripping away much of what makes it recognisable, or you can embrace it's nature and hope that the audience follows you.

They sort of did it with the movies and TNG, the movies changed the entire ethos from exploration to a military show. There's no reason why they couldn't go back to that earlier version of star trek.

It makes no sense that the entire human culture has been taken over by the federation and it's the only vehicle for scientific exploration, or pretty much anything.

Bacchus wrote: »

If it were me in charge, I'd keep the themes, the spirit, the classic alien cultures and just set it in a world 200 years from now that feels like it would be 200 years from now. Also, new characters. I don't want to see a reimagined Kirk, Spock, Picard, Data, etc. Keep the Enterprise though

200 years probably isn't long enough to be much beyond the Enterprise time.

But humans will be radically different in 200 years and development will probably speed up once we go through things like the singularity and start becoming part machine.

We probably won't need to fly our space ships as they'll be automated, there would probably be no need to manage the ship at all, just tell it where to go. Probably won't need doctors or engineers, but I could see people learning all these things anyway just as a back up to the automated systems.

Cookie_Monster

Bacchus wrote: »

For a start, the history of humanity according to the show needs to account for where we are now and stop basing things off of what was imagined in the 60s.

why though, there is canonically a nuclear WW3 in the ST universe which acts as a very large tech reset button. It's not unreasonable to assume huge swathes of knowledge were lost.

Besides we still don't have the slightest clue on how to make a warp drive work

Bacchus

ScumLord wrote: »

200 years probably isn't long enough to be much beyond the Enterprise time.

Which is exactly why I think a new series should be completely separated out from the Star Trek we know. A complete fresh start, a fresh take on the idea. Look at the rate of advances in technology now. Yes, a few leaps in tech/science are needed to get to warp, transporters, hand held lazers etc. but giving a bit of artistic licence, 200 years is plenty of time for us to become a space exploring society. Also, it should be back to TOS mantra of exploring strange new worlds so the series should have a similar setup to that. The federation is in its early days, the new crew of the Enterprise is off on its own 5 year mission.

ScumLord wrote: »

But humans will be radically different in 200 years and development will probably speed up once we go through things like the singularity and start becoming part machine.

We probably won't need to fly our space ships as they'll be automated, there would probably be no need to manage the ship at all, just tell it where to go. Probably won't need doctors or engineers, but I could see people learning all these things anyway just as a back up to the automated systems.

And all those things would be great to explore in a new series. However, you can't do that if it's tied to the old series.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why though, there is canonically a nuclear WW3 in the ST universe which acts as a very large tech reset button. It's not unreasonable to assume huge swathes of knowledge were lost.

Besides we still don't have the slightest clue on how to make a warp drive work

Well WW3 was originally in the 90s and later moved to the mid-21st century. The series is weighed down at this point by the "history" it has created. Culturally as well, while the old series did great work in bringing diversity to the screens, it's behind the times now. Also, there's a great opportunity to hold a lens up to what is going on in the world now (with ISIS for instance) through a fresh take on Star Trek.

As I said too, the whole technology of Star Trek needs to go back to the drawing board. TOS was based off of the (visionary) imaginings of Roddenberry in the 60s. TNG in the 90s added a bit to it but now all the tech in those series (with the exception of the obvious) seems dated even for 2016.

I'm all about a fresh start

ItHurtsWhenIP

Bacchus wrote: »

Which is exactly why I think a new series should be completely separated out from the Star Trek we know. A complete fresh start, a fresh take on the idea. Look at the rate of advances in technology now. Yes, a few leaps in tech/science are needed to get to warp, transporters, hand held lazers etc. but giving a bit of artistic licence, 200 years is plenty of time for us to become a space exploring society. Also, it should be back to TOS mantra of exploring strange new worlds so the series should have a similar setup to that. The federation is in its early days, the new crew of the Enterprise is off on its own 5 year mission.

Errrmmmm ... we kinda already are an space exploring society.

We have exploration craft in interstellar space and we have recently planted another such vehicle in orbit around the biggest planet in our solar system. (although I might be worried if V'ger shows up ina few years :eek::P)

Just saying!

ScumLord

Another thing I'm finding with star trek is that space is just to small. They seem to be able to explore the frontiers of space (and find a lost human expedition), then pop back to earth, go over the the Klingons, scan an entire region of space as if it was no thing.

I realise warp means they can pop from star to star, but they never really give the impression the bits inbetween are vast and dangerous. When something goes wrong there's always a planet near by that's perfectly suitable.

AtomicHorror

ScumLord wrote: »

Another thing I'm finding with star trek is that space is just to small. They seem to be able to explore the frontiers of space (and find a lost human expedition), then pop back to earth, go over the the Klingons, scan an entire region of space as if it was no thing.

I realise warp means they can pop from star to star, but they never really give the impression the bits inbetween are vast and dangerous. When something goes wrong there's always a planet near by that's perfectly suitable.

I think it suffered from a severe lack of consistency in that area. Some episodes were very good at getting across the vast times and distances, using proper orbital mechanics, plausibly depicting truly alien life. Others were all alien forehead prosthetic of the week, plot factor 9, miraculous crash landings and starships that fly like fighter jets.

I'd blame the writers bible, if I knew what was in it.

Cookie_Monster

ScumLord wrote: »

Another thing I'm finding with star trek is that space is just to small. They seem to be able to explore the frontiers of space (and find a lost human expedition), then pop back to earth, go over the the Klingons, scan an entire region of space as if it was no thing.

I realise warp means they can pop from star to star, but they never really give the impression the bits inbetween are vast and dangerous. When something goes wrong there's always a planet near by that's perfectly suitable.

well no-one wants to watch the 2 days of tedium as they cruise between systems...

Voyager was terrible for it but I think most other series were pretty good, it was easier to follow in ENT with the proper date system still in use. You got a feel that chunks of time had passed unseen and they explored longer term travel with Travis' family freight er too

_Kaiser_

Well this thread has convinced me to give it another go so I've compiled a list of the episodes that I think should avoid most of the shyte - I liked the whole Temporal Cold War idea so those, the Klingons/Duras episodes, Regeneration, the Shran/Andorian episodes, the Augments, the Xindi season, and most of season 4 as it turns out from reading Memory Alpha

Will kick off later tonight and update periodically as I go

_Kaiser_

So didn't get a chance to start till today but watching Broken Bow as we speak. Archer comes across as a strong and optimistic leader (albeit with a blind spot where Vulcans are concerned), and overall it's a pretty decent start to the series.

But jaysus... that de-con scene.. WTF where they thinking?

helimachoptor

that scene should have won an emmy tbh

_Kaiser_

So I've been watching several per night and I'm into the Xindi arc at this point and the step up in quality is noticeable from the first and majority of second seasons (which I skipped lots of). It really starts to come together after Azati Prime though, much in the same way as the final series episodes of DS9 were outstanding.

Rawr

Blazer wrote: »

For years I was saying we needed a show that followed the birth of the Federation and the ensuing Kllingon War and the setting up of the Neutral zone etc..but then I hear the major enemy was the Xindi..I was like...who the fcuk are the Xindi???

This was something that regularly annoyed the hell out of me with ENT. (So much so, I think this alone made me stop watching.)

Broken Bow got me excited from the get-go. A Klingon crashed on Earth? This must be that occasionally referenced 'Disasterious First-Contact with the Klingons' that causes the Klingon/Federation War! Awesome!

But then no...that war doesn't happen. Instead we get weird sponge-skinned Xindis with their Temporal Waste of time Cold War.

There-after whenever we got Klingons...there would be a threat of violence...some hintings at a maybe war...but in the end of the day the Enterprise would save the day, reset relations, and leave the Klingons wagging their fists like cartoon villains.

"You may have peace today Enterprise crew! But next time we meet, there will be WAR! Mark my words! Next time!!!!"

Rinse and repeat.

So much potential pissed away until it was too late. I'm hoping that ST-D might fix that.

Myrddin

Myrddin wrote: »

^^ fully agree. It was hugely inconsistent, & doing a fairly full on run through, this becomes abundantly clear. For me, ultimately, it was the writing that failed the show...it didn't know what it was, what it wanted to be, where it wanted to go, and how to get there...and that showed through to the viewer.

I often felt one more season could have saved it, but now, today, I feel the cancellation came at the right time. Another season would have been yet another new arc...the viewers were well & truly lost by the end.

Actually I think that season 4 was planting the Romulans to be the primary antagonist for the remaining seasons, culminating with a season 6/7 Romulan war and subsequent BotF

Rawr

Rawr wrote: »

This was something that regularly annoyed the hell out of me with ENT. (So much so, I think this alone made me stop watching.)

Broken Bow got me excited from the get-go. A Klingon crashed on Earth? This must be that occasionally referenced 'Disasterious First-Contact with the Klingons' that causes the Klingon/Federation War! Awesome!

But then no...that war doesn't happen. Instead we get weird sponge-skinned Xindis with their Temporal Waste of time Cold War.

There-after whenever we got Klingons...there would be a threat of violence...some hintings at a maybe war...but in the end of the day the Enterprise would save the day, reset relations, and leave the Klingons wagging their fists like cartoon villains.

"You may have peace today Enterprise crew! But next time we meet, there will be WAR! Mark my words! Next time!!!!"

Rinse and repeat.

So much potential pissed away until it was too late. I'm hoping that ST-D might fix that.

IT was never an Earth V Klingon war though was it? It was a Federation V Klingon war no?

I always thought that the only interstellar war, which Earth fought alone, was the Earth V Romulan war

The_Valeyard

Deleted User wrote: »

IT was never an Earth V Klingon war though was it? It was a Federation V Klingon war no?

I always thought that the only interstellar war, which Earth fought alone, was the Earth V Romulan war

Think thats correct. Read in some novel that the Earth V Romulan war, may have helped speed up the creation of the Federation.

Rawr

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Think thats correct. Read in some novel that the Earth V Romulan war, may have helped speed up the creation of the Federation.

From what I have read over the years, I believe you are both right. Earth went up against the Romulans alone, and the original pre-Neutral Zone border was made up of Earth Outposts straddling Romulan Star Empire space.

In the first few minutes of Broken Bow, it didn't know it was pre-Federation and thus my mistaken hope to see the Klingon War start up.

But since early Earth exploration was probably so marked by the Romulan War, I'm wondering why there wasn't more focus on that in ENT. They could have spent the early seasons leading up the War itself (with a theme of war-hysteria, arrogance & militarist politics) , spent 1-2 seasons in the actual war (DS9 has shown us that they can pull this off), and then rounded off the series with the establishment of the Federation. By that stage, scarred by all of the war and hatred, they would have started to resolve to try and promote the peaceful exploration of space with a newly reformed Star Fleet and a better sense of how the Galaxy works.

They could have then ended the show with the cliff-hanger of the disastrous first contact with the Klingons, and maybe a feature film covering that conflict (ala ST:Axinar)

imitation

In a case of over parnoidness ill spoiler this one, its about thew new star trek movie and its plot.

Interesting how Star Trek beyond relates a lot to Enterprise, one of the characters is from that era, one of the ships is too and the maligned xindi are mentioned, it actualy soured me a little although I enjoyed the movie a lot. Enterpise just doesnt slot well into the Canon for me because there was this huge war with the Xindi who were bent on nuking earth and it never gets a mention, obviously because there were the last addition. Surely a fight with romulans or andorians would have made more sense.

LionelNashe

I'm halfway through season 4.

Good points:

• Archer: Good character, well acted. Not as good as Jean Luc, but better than Kirk or Janeway.
• T'Pol in her pyjamas. Just incredible.
• Trip Tucker's 'Huckleberry Hound' impression. Fair play for keeping it going for 4 seasons.

Bad points:

• The opening music. "Faith of the heart". Good christ.
• Too many boring humans. The show really needed some more interesting characters like Worf / Spock / Data / Quark / The Holographic Doctor etc.
• The whole Xindi thing. Let's make friends with the genocidal war criminals so that they won't try to wipe us out again. Meh.

Didn't we include information with the Voyager probe so that alien civilizations could find Earth? I wonder if anyone objected at the time because of the possibility that we could get wiped out by aliens at some time in the future.

ScumLord

LionelNashe wrote: »

Didn't we include information with the Voyager probe so that alien civilizations could find Earth? I wonder if anyone objected at the time because of the possibility that we could get wiped out by aliens at some time in the future.

I think Steven Hawking has been saying that for years. But what does he know, he's only the smartest man in the world.

The_Valeyard

imitation wrote: »

In a case of over parnoidness ill spoiler this one, its about thew new star trek movie and its plot.

Interesting how Star Trek beyond relates a lot to Enterprise, one of the characters is from that era, one of the ships is too and the maligned xindi are mentioned, it actualy soured me a little although I enjoyed the movie a lot. Enterpise just doesnt slot well into the Canon for me because there was this huge war with the Xindi who were bent on nuking earth and it never gets a mention, obviously because there were the last addition. Surely a fight with romulans or andorians would have made more sense.

Maybe compared to the Earth Romulan war, those events seemed a tiny in the grand scheme of things.


Or you know, timey whimey, wibbly wobbly.

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

I think Steven Hawking has been saying that for years. But what does he know, he's only the smartest man in the world.

We're broadcasting at a crazy level since 1940s anyone in the Voyager neighbourhood (or for the next several thousand years travel) already knows that we're here

degrassinoel

Deleted User wrote: »

We're broadcasting at a crazy level since 1940s anyone in the Voyager neighbourhood (or for the next several thousand years travel) already knows that we're here

They'll ignore us once they get to the bit where reality TV takes over

Rawr

degrassinoel wrote: »

They'll ignore us once they get to the bit where reality TV takes over

Borg: WE ARE THE BORG, YOUR CIVILIZATION WILL SERVICE US!

TV Announcer: This week Jade enters the Big Brother house...

Borg: WE ARE THE BORG...ERM.....WE ARE THE......YOU KNOW WHAT, NEVER MIND....

Zillah

LionelNashe wrote: »

Didn't we include information with the Voyager probe so that alien civilizations could find Earth? I wonder if anyone objected at the time because of the possibility that we could get wiped out by aliens at some time in the future.

Carl Sagan said: "The newest children in a strange and uncertain cosmos should listen quietly for a long time, patiently learning about the universe and comparing notes, before shouting into an unknown jungle that we do not understand".

Stephen Hawking thinks encounters between more and less advanced civilisations are likely to end in annihilation of the less advanced one (us).

No one is ever going to find Voyager, it will be an infinitesimal speck indistinguishable from the oceans of interstellar space. If Voyager is found it will be future humans chasing after it with FTL to bring it back and put it in a museum!

Our radio signals are what might give us away.

Johnny Storm

Plus, we already know what happened to VoyaGER, don't we?:pac:

ondafly

finished this up last month - and I do miss the show now, however I really thought the last episode was a bit shoe horned but I guess they knew it was all coming to an end and perhaps was a bit of a rush job.

I'm now on DS9 - will post on that thread though !