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Forgiveness

  • 05-07-2016 6:42pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭


    Forgiveness??? Is it just a word? Has the meaning of forgiveness being lost on society these days... Cause it certainly seems that way. Every time there is a murder victim on the news if he has any sort of criminal conviction people are so unforgiving towards that person even if hes convictions are for the most minor and petty offences. I understand a part of that is snobbery because people find it hard to identify or feel any sort of empathy towards those they consider to be part of the "underclass" a lack of understanding that those in the "underclass" actually had no chance in which the circumstances they where born into.... But thats a thread for another day what this thread is about is forgiveness is it a lost concept that has no place in todays society???? Please I want to read your opinions on this...


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    Cant forgive the writing style.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭LightsStillOn


    I forgive you for that block of writing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    dinorebel wrote: »
    Cant forgive the writing style.

    I never claimed to be an academic pal so deal with it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Depends on what the forgiveness is for, tbh.
    Dent my car? Ok, accidents happen. Not happy but I'll get over it...

    Eat my last slice of lasagne however and you are ****ing dead to me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I think privately, most people are forgiving enough. But in a group, or even worse on the internet? They enjoy being outraged much more.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I think privately, most people are forgiving enough. But in a group, or even worse on the internet? They enjoy being outraged much more.

    Hyperbole is the word.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    What do you think yourself?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,062 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    tomofson wrote: »
    Forgiveness??? Is it just a word? Has the meaning of forgiveness being lost on society these days...

    Why forgive scumbaggery? A lot murder victims on the news had it coming to them. It's not as if theyve repented and changed their ways or anything. It's not as if they're sorry for the things they've done to people and the suffering they've caused etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    tomofson wrote: »
    Forgiveness??? Is it just a word? Has the meaning of forgiveness being lost on society these days... Cause it certainly seems that way. Every time there is a murder victim on the news if he has any sort of criminal conviction people are so unforgiving towards that person even if hes convictions are for the most minor and petty offences. I understand a part of that is snobbery because people find it hard to identify or feel any sort of empathy towards those they consider to be part of the "underclass" a lack of understand that the people in the "underclass" actually had no chance in which the circumstances they where born into.... But thats a thread for another day what this thread is about is forgiveness is it a lost concept that has no place in todays society???? Please I want to read your opinions on this...

    Come back to us when an innocent loved one of yours has been beaten up, seriously injured and hospitalised due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time by someone who had 163 previous convictions for violent assault yet manages to freely roam the streets. Feel free to then wax lyrical about your empathy, lack of snobbery and rush to unconditionally forgive!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Have to admit I'm a very unforgiving person, when someone crosses me intentionally I'm done with them. My life is too busy to be bothered trying to understand nasty people and I just cut them off completly, this includes family members.
    I've rebuffed apologies because I just couldn't be bothered - I find most people apologise to make themselves feel better rather than anything else.

    On boards I use the ignore button and hate to see that persons posts quoted as I really just don't want to see them again.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Why forgive scumbaggery? A lot murder victims on the news had it coming to them. It's not as if theyve repented and changed their ways or anything. It's not as if they're sorry for the things they've done to people and the suffering they've caused etc.

    Prime example of an unforgiving person right here.... The real reason you label them as scumbags is because you are uncomfortable with their social "class" your type labelled them with in the first place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    _Brian wrote: »
    Have to admit I'm a very unforgiving person, when someone crosses me intentionally I'm done with them. My life is too busy to be bothered trying to understand nasty people and I just cut them off completly, this includes family members.
    I've rebuffed apologies because I just couldn't be bothered - I find most people apologise to make themselves feel better rather than anything else.

    On boards I use the ignore button and hate to see that persons posts quoted as I really just don't want to see them again.

    I understand you have to look after yourself first and cut out the negativity thats just a simple act of survival... I'm talking about holding a deep seeded hate filled grudge against someone, like that will do you no good part of forgiveness is being able to move on without taking all that emotion with you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭Minderbinder


    "You seem to think that saying the word 'sorry' makes up for any wrongdoing." Guess who said that to me?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    "You seem to think that saying the word 'sorry' makes up for any wrongdoing." Guess who said that to me?

    Im going to guess your ma

    But its not about the word sorry more about societies prejudices.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    tomofson wrote: »
    I understand you have to look after yourself first and cut out the negativity thats just a simple act of survival... I'm talking about holding a deep seeded hate filled grudge against someone, like that will do you no good part of forgiveness is being able to move on without taking all that emotion with you.

    Oh I have a special shortlist of people that I just detest the fact that they are on the face of the earth - i do hate real well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    _Brian wrote: »
    Oh I have a special shortlist of people that I just detest the fact that they are on the face of the earth - i do hate real well.

    Thats only because your a powerless person in your actual life so hate filled fantasies are the only places you get to be a shot caller.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    _Brian wrote: »
    Oh I have a special shortlist of people that I just detest the fact that they are on the face of the earth - i do hate real well.

    Have you considered removing these people from the face of the earth? Tomofson isn't impressed by our murder rates.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Have you considered removing these people from the face of the earth? Tomofson isn't impressed by our murder rates.

    I am actually impressed by the murder rate I like to see it as low as possible and preferably none... But I certainly do appreciate a bit of good humour


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,417 ✭✭✭ToddyDoody


    I'll generally consider any apologies that may be offered :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Estrellita


    tomofson wrote: »
    Forgiveness??? Is it just a word? Has the meaning of forgiveness being lost on society these days... Cause it certainly seems that way. Every time there is a murder victim on the news if he has any sort of criminal conviction people are so unforgiving towards that person even if hes convictions are for the most minor and petty offences. I understand a part of that is snobbery because people find it hard to identify or feel any sort of empathy towards those they consider to be part of the "underclass" a lack of understanding that those in the "underclass" actually had no chance in which the circumstances they where born into.... But thats a thread for another day what this thread is about is forgiveness is it a lost concept that has no place in todays society???? Please I want to read your opinions on this...

    Its far easier to forgive those who are genuinely sorry, than those that are only sorry they were caught.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Estrellita wrote: »
    Its far easier to forgive those who are genuinely sorry, than those that are only sorry they were caught.

    I think the fact someone is not sorry shows how lost and confused they actually are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    ongarboy wrote: »
    Come back to us when an innocent loved one of yours has been beaten up, seriously injured and hospitalised due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time by someone who had 163 previous convictions for violent assault yet manages to freely roam the streets. Feel free to then wax lyrical about your empathy, lack of snobbery and rush to unconditionally forgive!

    I don't have to come back when that happens cause I have been the victim of that in the past... I understand in those circumstances forgiveness is difficult but it is doable. A lot of people dont understand the meaning of forgiveness, I will simplify it for your small mind. It is not excusing the actions but moving past what happened.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Yep. You're definitely rivalling kneemos.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Estrellita


    tomofson wrote: »
    I have been the victim of that in the past... I understand in those circumstances forgiveness is difficult but it is doable.
    I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. So I assume you have forgiven the assailant(s)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Estrellita wrote: »
    I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. So I assume you have forgiven the assailant(s)?

    Of course I have I wouldn't be preaching forgiveness if I wasn't willing to put in the effort myself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Forgiveness is for the weak


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Forgiveness is for the weak

    Thats why most suicide victims are hate filled depressives with revenge fantasies...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    tomofson wrote: »
    I don't have to come back when that happens cause I have been the victim of that in the past... I understand in those circumstances forgiveness is difficult but it is doable. A lot of people dont understand the meaning of forgiveness, I will simplify it for your small mind. It is not excusing the actions but moving past what happened.

    Quite funny how at odd this post is with the original post, like most "liberals" the mask slips when not agreed with and wanting to hear opinion is actually wanting to hear the echo bounce back.

    To answer your question i think people full well know what forgiveness is but how can people in this society move past anything when from the optics it looks like there is no justice being done for allot of crimes in this country. All you need is a good sob story and you will generally get off lightly.

    Sometimes when bad cases happen as you describe in the op sure it's sad and all that but people find it very hard to be empathic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Quite funny how at odd this post is with the original post, like most "liberals" the mask slips when not agreed with and wanting to hear opinion is actually wanting to hear the echo bounce back.

    To answer your question i think people full well know what forgiveness is but how can people in this society move past anything when from the optics it looks like there is no justice being done for allot of crimes in this country. All you need is a good sob story and you will generally get off lightly.

    Sometimes when bad cases happen as you describe in the op sure it's sad and all that but people find it very hard to be empathic.

    How did a mask slip??? If someone gives me attitude I'll give it back its that simple, saying that I wont be hating that person for the rest of me life over it.

    Justice is being done in this country just not the sort of justice use all want. Does it never occur to you those sob stories might be true??? Well of course it doesn't cause that would go against your own bias but I can tell you for a fact most are... If you plant a flower wrong it grows badly its that simple if you abuse a child they will have lifelong problems and some of those problems come in violent ways...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    This is an incredibly complex issue for me but I am capable of forgiveness and I think that forgiveness is born of empathy and understanding. Other aspects of it can seem quite selfish, I know that part of forgiveness can be the avoidance of guilt in oneself. I try to forgive, most of my life has been extraordinarily harsh and I have sucked it up and pushed it in and thought I was forgiving but I wasn't. I was just filling a part of me with something I don't really understand but I have come to at least recognise.

    I forgave my father, he abused me badly and I spent my life hating him but still loving him. I did not understand why he did this to me and so I could not deal with it. When he was diagnosed with cancer last year I went to see him for the first time in a very long time. Looking at that frail, dying man made me realise that the human condition is uncontrolled, we strive to be our best and we try to conform to the norms but we are imperfect and capable of great wrongs. My father went through a bad divorce when I was two, he lost his future during the miners strike of thatchers doing. He took on someone else's children and tried to raise 5 kids. He was just a man.

    I forgave him that day, not because he deserved it, not because he had become a better man or made amends but because there was good in him, he just got it wrong. I lost a father but he had lost a son and I knew I could not carry on with the hate. I did not tell him I forgave him, I was polite and made small talk until it was time to go and then I hugged him, it was our first physical contact in 30 years and it was to be our last. He died a few months ago. A lonely man who didn't even have a funeral because nobody would have gone.

    I feel sorry for him now, there were many years I would have celebrated his death but not now. Now I wish I had forgiven him sooner.

    There are others I am trying to forgive but they are not finished hurting me yet. We'll get there, I only hope it will not be on somebodies deathbed again.

    And just a quick note on the 'scumbag' question. I don't even know how many convictions I have. It is a lot. I have served prison time. My life was a shambles, I've been a drug addict, an alcoholic and a waster. I spent years claiming dole and I didn't finish school.

    Scumbag. Proper scumbag.

    I have also, put those things behind me, reformed my criminal ways a long time ago, I don't drink, I don't do drugs I work full time and I try to raise my children responsibly. I turned my life around 15 years ago and would hate to think if I was to die that I would be remembered for my failings, my children never saw them, nobody on boards has had to put up with them, my epitaph should not be polluted by them. I often find myself thinking 'sure, they deserved it' when I hear of some person shot in a gangland hit but then I remember that I too nearly died that way, that I have the history that they have held against them and I wonder do they sit crying writing messages on boards about their dysfunctional father and forgiveness?

    Life is far from black and white. Scumbags are born from adversity, addiction, poverty and abuse. Some of us get out of it, some don't.


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tomofson wrote: »
    I don't have to come back when that happens cause I have been the victim of that in the past... I understand in those circumstances forgiveness is difficult but it is doable. A lot of people dont understand the meaning of forgiveness, I will simplify it for your small mind. It is not excusing the actions but moving past what happened.
    Are you Paul Kelly?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Estrellita


    tomofson wrote: »
    Of course I have I wouldn't be preaching forgiveness if I wasn't willing to put in the effort myself.

    I'm just asking. I didn't think your original post was preachy, but it was clear you had a reason for asking.

    You have to realise that not everyone has experienced what you have, and even those who have unfortantely experienced being assaulted arent capable of forgiveness, and need help to get past it. It is because it is traumatic, and tends to leave an emotional scar.

    Many years ago, my sister was thumped hard and sharply in the back by someone while in Dublin city centre who proceeded to run off. She was so very upset by the ordeal, but one thing she couldn't stop saying was "why me? What did I do?" The truth of the matter is she was just their pick of the morning. And the real truth of the matter is a lot of people that need help aren't getting it, or even know that they need it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    FortySeven wrote: »
    This is an incredibly complex issue for me but I am capable of forgiveness and I think that forgiveness is born of empathy and understanding. Other aspects of it can seem quite selfish, I know that part of forgiveness can be the avoidance of guilt in oneself. I try to forgive, most of my life has been extraordinarily harsh and I have sucked it up and pushed it in and thought I was forgiving but I wasn't. I was just filling a part of me with something I don't really understand but I have come to at least recognise.

    I forgave my father, he abused me badly and I spent my life hating him but still loving him. I did not understand why he did this to me and so I could not deal with it. When he was diagnosed with cancer last year I went to see him for the first time in a very long time. Looking at that frail, dying man made me realise that the human condition is uncontrolled, we strive to be our best and we try to conform to the norms but we are imperfect and capable of great wrongs. My father went through a bad divorce when I was two, he lost his future during the miners strike of thatchers doing. He took on someone else's children and tried to raise 5 kids. He was just a man.

    I forgave him that day, not because he deserved it, not because he had become a better man or made amends but because there was good in him, he just got it wrong. I lost a father but he had lost a son and I knew I could not carry on with the hate. I did not tell him I forgave him, I was polite and made small talk until it was time to go and then I hugged him, it was our first physical contact in 30 years and it was to be our last. He died a few months ago. A lonely man who didn't even have a funeral because nobody would have gone.

    I feel sorry for him now, there were many years I would have celebrated his death but not now. Now I wish I had forgiven him sooner.

    There are others I am trying to forgive but they are not finished hurting me yet. We'll get there, I only hope it will not be on somebodies deathbed again.

    And just a quick note on the 'scumbag' question. I don't even know how many convictions I have. It is a lot. I have served prison time. My life was a shambles, I've been a drug addict, an alcoholic and a waster. I spent years claiming dole and I didn't finish school.

    Scumbag. Proper scumbag.

    I have also, put those things behind me, reformed my criminal ways a long time ago, I don't drink, I don't do drugs I work full time and I try to raise my children responsibly. I turned my life around 15 years ago and would hate to think if I was to die that I would be remembered for my failings, my children never saw them, nobody on boards has had to put up with them, my epitaph should not be polluted by them. I often find myself thinking 'sure, they deserved it' when I hear of some person shot in a gangland hit but then I remember that I too nearly died that way, that I have the history that they have held against them and I wonder do they sit crying writing messages on boards about their dysfunctional father and forgiveness?

    Life is far from black and white. Scumbags are born from adversity, addiction, poverty and abuse. Some of us get out of it, some don't.

    We come from very similar backgrounds, I wont go into mine in full detail cause I wont be giving any of these anonymous clowns on here any ammunition they can throw back at me on a later date if we disagree on something but lets just say a lot of people in my family had addictions... Severe drug addictions mostly heroin as well as alcohol, that is the reason we are forgiving is because we have been there seen it and lived it while most of the people on here can only speculate on what it might have been like... That is probably why I was able to forgive the many people who done me wrong in my life because of my own personal circumstances...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    tomofson wrote: »
    Thats only because your a powerless person in your actual life so hate filled fantasies are the only places you get to be a shot caller.

    Wtf ??


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What do you think yourself?

    I think they gave their thoughts in their post.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    I think it depends what we're talking about. A mistake or going down the wrong path can be forgiven. But I believe there are people that are beyond redemption. People that are self-centred and without a trace of empathy who will always mistake your forgiveness for weakness. That can be in a small way like someone always taking advantage and in a big way, people that are outright violent and horrible. I don't think we should forgive them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Boskowski wrote: »
    I think it depends what we're talking about. A mistake or going down the wrong path can be forgiven. But I believe there are people that are beyond redemption. People that are self-centred and without a trace of empathy who will always mistake your forgiveness for weakness. That can be in a small way like someone always taking advantage and in a big way, people that are outright violent and horrible. I don't think we should forgive them.

    Those people are called psychopaths, believe it or not you will find more of them in high paying powerful jobs than you will in any prison...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    tomofson wrote: »
    How did a mask slip??? If someone gives me attitude I'll give it back its that simple, saying that I wont be hating that person for the rest of me life over it.

    Justice is being done in this country just not the sort of justice use all want. Does it never occur to you those sob stories might be true??? Well of course it doesn't cause that would go against your own bias but I can tell you for a fact most are... If you plant a flower wrong it grows badly its that simple if you abuse a child they will have lifelong problems and some of those problems come in violent ways...

    He raised some valid points you came back with an attack what's not to understand.

    I don't care if the sob stories are true or not, If they were true and a person genuinely got back on the right track maybe I could understand but when it comes to victims of crime my sympathy is with the victims.

    Everyone has choices in this life and excusing bad behavior is exactly why allot of the public have no time for forgiveness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Calhoun wrote: »
    He raised some valid points you came back with an attack what's not to understand.

    I don't care if the sob stories are true or not, If they were true and a person genuinely got back on the right track maybe I could understand but when it comes to victims of crime my sympathy is with the victims.

    Everyone has choices in this life and excusing bad behavior is exactly why allot of the public have no time for forgiveness.

    People have choices in life yes, one thing they have no choice over whatsoever is the circumstances they are born into... Bad circumstances lead head on to bad decisions. Some of those people are the victims then they go on to create more victims out of mostly anger and insecurity. Anyways I asked about forgiveness not who your sympathy lies with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    tomofson wrote: »
    People have choices in life yes, one thing they have no choice over whatsoever is the circumstances they are born into... Bad circumstances lead head on to bad decisions. Some of those people are the victims then they go on to create more victims out of mostly anger and insecurity. Anyways I asked about forgiveness not who your sympathy lies with.

    Yes but you also illustrated why you think people aren't as forgiving by giving an example of the gang land murders which is why I answered that way.

    Are people not forgiving or is there just certain crimes / scenarios they are less forgiving in. I would think how people forgive is unique to them but there is little tolerance for what you described.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Yes but you also illustrated why you think people aren't as forgiving by giving an example of the gang land murders which is why I answered that way.

    Are people not forgiving or is there just certain crimes / scenarios they are less forgiving in. I would think how people forgive is unique to them but there is little tolerance for what you described.

    If they are able to pick a scenario they are less forgiving in that shows they are not understanding the meaning of forgiveness


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