I've just had an auctioneer ask me for €10k in cash to close a deal

Cerbera

I thought that the days of the brown envelope were a thing of the past, particularly in the property sector, but obviously that's not the case

I've just been told by an auctioneer that he'll provisionally accept my offer but I will have to come up with another €10k in cash before the deal will be completed

I was in shock and should have just told him there and then to go fu(k himself but didn't and just said something along the lines of having trouble getting my hands on that kind of cash

He's selling the place for some bank

Is there any way I can find out what bank own it now and can I just contact them directly and see if I can buy it directly from them?

b4bmm

Name and shame.

Paulw

b4bmm wrote: »

Name and shame.

Mod Note: No naming and shaming on boards.ie

Please read the charter b4bmm.

Michael D Not Higgins

I assume this is separate to a booking deposit? If so, report to the PSRA.

Tefral

Are they a member of the Society of Chartered Surveyors? I implore you to call them and tell them of this. This is actually rampant and they are taking a very strong line on it.

The Society of Chartered
Surveyors Ireland
38 Merrion Square
Dublin 2:

Tel: (01) 6445500
Email: info@scsi.ie
Web: www.scsi.ie

gordongekko

Jesus what's the big deal. Either pay it or walk away. Nobody is forcing you to accept the terms.

dickwod1

gordongekko wrote: »

Jesus what's the big deal.

€10,000 in a brown envelope

this is very common in these situations from what I've heard. (auctioneers selling for bank).
auctioneer knows bank will accept [x] price.
auctioneer wants cash on top for himself.

cruizer101

Try ring him back to ask about it and record the phone call, then send it on to the bank and regulatory authorities.

intheclouds

Tell a journalist.

Pawwed Rig

I would write to the bank outlining the full details too.

drunkmonkey

cruizer101 wrote: »

Try ring him back to ask about it and record the phone call, then send it on to the bank and regulatory authorities.

It's illegal to record the call without informing him.

If your getting a great deal and want the house pay the 10k

Once you've the keys you can worry about getting some of the 10k back, little threat of a call to the revenue will fix that.
Get the house first before doing anything.

Cathmandooo

Are you sure it was for his pocket or was it that the bank will only sell it for your offer +10k?

If your offer was in cash then the "10k in cash" would just imply they don't want to go down the road of mortgage approval.

If I'm getting the wrong end of the stick then definitely report them to the PSRA and SCSI

Oral Surgeon

Is the asking price plus the €10k good value for you?? Will it seal the deal and stop bidding wars that may cost you more than €10k? If so, pay it and be happy. If not, move on, reporting him gets you what??

Avatar MIA

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's illegal to record the call without informing him.

It cannot be used in evidence. However, what has been heard cannot be unheard. If his regulatory body hears the tape the auctioneer will be audited back to when he received his confirmation money.

Avatar MIA

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

If not, move on, reporting him gets you what??

That's a terrible attitude. Are you okay with corruption?

L1011

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

Is the asking price plus the €10k good value for you?? Will it seal the deal and stop bidding wars that may cost you more than €10k? If so, pay it and be happy. If not, move on, reporting him gets you what??

Because its is facilitating a criminal offence, leaves you open for Revenue investigations (yes, the stamp duty on a 10k difference is tiny but that doesn't stop them) and its very likely that the bank being stiffed for the 10k by the illegal act is owned by the state - e.g. us - in the first place.

Auctioneer needs to be reported and if the bank is known they need to be informed.

m'lady

Honestly are people suggesting that the OP should pay this 10k to this scheming Auctioneer serious? This is how this sort of thing is allowed to continue and how people get in a financial mess for that matter.

OP, you need to be sure that the Auctioneer meant the extra money for his pocket and not the banks, and then please report it to the relevant authorities.

intheclouds

Deeply worrying that anyone would advocate doing this.

L1011

m'lady wrote: »

OP, you need to be sure that the Auctioneer meant the extra money for his pocket and not the banks, and then please report it to the relevant authorities.

That he asked for it in cash guarantees that its not for the bank. Its either for him or for the soon to be former 'owner' in a distressed sale - which is far more likely.

Stealthfins

drunkmonkey wrote:

If your getting a great deal and want the house pay the 10k

Are you the auctioneer ?

m'lady

L1011 wrote: »

That he asked for it in cash guarantees that its not for the bank. Its either for him or for the soon to be former 'owner' in a distressed sale - which is far more likely.

Very true, which is what I would assume too but I think it's important the OP establish the facts first.
Why would the Auctioneer put his job and reputation on the line to arrange 10k to the soon to be former owner? Especially when he's obviously selling on behalf of the bank.

If its good value at the price +10k paying him is definitely an option to be considered if it saves you money in the long run. People can say this and that about it but at the end of the day you need to look after your own pocket first. The world is cut throat and the next person that comes won't think twice about it. That being said I'd want some serious guarantees that the house was mine for sure.

Johngoose

Could I just ask what county is this happening in?Is the auctioneer selling a commercial/residential property?I find it a bit shocking myself to be honest.

Johngoose

Johngoose wrote: »

Could I just ask what county is this happening in?Is the auctioneer selling a commercial/residential property?I find it a bit shocking myself to be honest.

I'd be pretty confident in saying that this happens in every county in Ireland, unfortunately.

OverRide

It may be possible that it's not a bank actually selling the property but the owner who is in trouble with the bank and that the 10k is for them so the bank won't know about it

Markcheese

I think i'd do the deal (but with news paper rather than euros)... but record the lot.. i'd be looking for very explicit verbal conformation that i'd got the property for a bargain ,and that this wasnt the booking deposit,will I get a receipt haha.....before I handed over the "paper" money....
Have your exit planned and maybe a large friend in the car too...
Info to the bank, his boss,trade body ect..

intheclouds

Emersyn Helpful Metro wrote: »

If its good value at the price +10k paying him is definitely an option to be considered if it saves you money in the long run. People can say this and that about it but at the end of the day you need to look after your own pocket first. The world is cut throat and the next person that comes won't think twice about it. That being said I'd want some serious guarantees that the house was mine for sure.

Doing it leaves the OP open to trouble with the Revenue and a criminal record for fraud.

You cant just hand someone 10k in an envelope and not tell the Revenue Commissioners!

nhunter100

OverRide wrote:

It may be possible that it's not a bank actually selling the property but the owner who is in trouble with the bank and that the 10k is for them so the bank won't know about it

Irrelevant as to whom the money is for, it's still illegal.

afatbollix

Last I checked folks a bribe is illegal in Ireland. We all know Ireland has a dodgy past with bribes with not much done about it.

We even have it in this thread, 'If you want the house pay it and forget it'

I wouldn't pay the bribe, number one fraud, The other if they are a scam artist, what would stop them taking the money from 5 people and turning around and saying the bank won't sell now but the money is gone.

Report it to everyone who will listen, Don't go to the indo as they are funded by them but the times might like your story.

Gumbo

L1011 wrote: »

That he asked for it in cash guarantees that its not for the bank. Its either for him or for the soon to be former 'owner' in a distressed sale - which is far more likely.

I bought last year and I had to pay the deposit in cash. It was only €5k though.
It made sure I was serious about the purchase. All was above board and that was to a registered auctioneer also.

uck51js9zml2yt

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

Is the asking price plus the €10k good value for you?? Will it seal the deal and stop bidding wars that may cost you more than €10k? If so, pay it and be happy. If not, move on, reporting him gets you what??

Reporting him gets you the knowledge that a corrupt agent is being dealt with.

laoisman11

Emersyn Helpful Metro wrote: »

If its good value at the price +10k paying him is definitely an option to be considered if it saves you money in the long run. People can say this and that about it but at the end of the day you need to look after your own pocket first. The world is cut throat and the next person that comes won't think twice about it. That being said I'd want some serious guarantees that the house was mine for sure.

Wow. Just wow.

Even if I had the possibility of getting a house at "good value" if I slid a brown envelope into someone's hands, I couldn't or wouldn't do it. But maybe that's just me.

How can some people not see a little bit further than their own personal interests in these situations??

OP, make sure of your facts and act accordingly.

Oral Surgeon

Braylee Creamy Dean wrote: »

Reporting him gets you the knowledge that a corrupt agent is being dealt with.

Great, that's worth the effort so!

intheclouds

intheclouds wrote: »

You cant just hand someone 10k in an envelope and not tell the Revenue Commissioners!

People pay their booking deposits in cash, people buy cars in cash all the time. I never told revenue about handing over a few k in cash in an envelope when buying a car.

I'm, not advising the op to do it I wouldn't advise anyone to do it. People need to make their own decisions on these things. There are three options. Do nothing, report the auctioneer or go through with it and people need to make their own minds up on how to proceed.

Avatar MIA

It's likely the amount the OP is paying before the €10k bribe is the acceptable amount to the seller. Therefore, if he can tell the seller (possibly a bank) then he could get the deal for the lesser amount.

davo10

Op, the first thing to consider is, will this benefit you? If the property is undervalued, you really like it and it is likely to cost more if it is kept on the market, then it may be in your interest to pay the cash and get the property you want at a price lower than expected.

On the other hand, you could consider the moral dilemma in this, it is unsavoury to say the least to be asked for cash (even though a lot of buyers do offer it), and you could report the auctioneer but you no doubt will lose the property or at the very least have to pay more then the €10 extra for it.

It really comes down to your conscience and whether you want to seal that deal asap at a price which benefits you.

L1011

kceire wrote: »

I bought last year and I had to pay the deposit in cash. It was only €5k though.
It made sure I was serious about the purchase. All was above board and that was to a registered auctioneer also.

That's the deposit. This isn't a deposit, its a bung.

Emersyn Helpful Metro wrote: »

If its good value at the price +10k paying him is definitely an option to be considered if it saves you money in the long run. People can say this and that about it but at the end of the day you need to look after your own pocket first. The world is cut throat and the next person that comes won't think twice about it. That being said I'd want some serious guarantees that the house was mine for sure.

Its outright fraud, not being "cut throat". They aren't looking for a deposit here - they are looking to defraud the bank selling. The bank will never hear of or see that 10k.

m'lady wrote: »

Very true, which is what I would assume too but I think it's important the OP establish the facts first.
Why would the Auctioneer put his job and reputation on the line to arrange 10k to the soon to be former owner? Especially when he's obviously selling on behalf of the bank.

Because for years they were effectively unregulated as a profession - a member run body that didn't uphold complaints - and think they're untouchable. Also most people don't even know you can complain.

drunkmonkey

Avatar MIA wrote: »

It's likely the amount the OP is paying before the €10k bribe is the acceptable amount to the seller. Therefore, if he can tell the seller (possibly a bank) then he could get the deal for the lesser amount.

Or he ends up not getting a bargain of a house.

House sales can be complicated and if 10k will seal the deal and OP gets a bargain then pay it.

No point in being rigetous and homeless or overpaying for the next house.

intheclouds

Emersyn Helpful Metro wrote: »

People pay their booking deposits in cash, people buy cars in cash all the time. I never told revenue about handing over a few k in cash in an envelope when buying a car.

But there will be a record of a booking deposit. Its a legitimate transaction regardless of how it is paid.

What record will there be of a bribe?

drunkmonkey

L1011 wrote: »

Its outright fraud, not being "cut throat". They aren't looking for a deposit here - they are looking to defraud the bank selling. The bank will never hear of or see that 10k

Tone it down a little, it's the way the world works. Banks will get the price their willing to accept, seller gets his 10k and OP gets a bargain, everybody's happy.

Avatar MIA

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No point in being rigetous and homeless or overpaying for the next house.

If the OP is in the market to purchase a house he's unlikely to be at risk of being homeless. Hyperbole much?

L1011

L1011 wrote: »

Its outright fraud, not being "cut throat". They aren't looking for a deposit here - they are looking to defraud the bank selling. The bank will never hear of or see that 10k.

I'm under no illusions about what the 10k is, what I meant is that if a person was willing to hand over the money they would want the auctioneer to guarantee them that they was getting the house.

intheclouds wrote: »

What record will there be of a bribe?

None obviously.

laoisman11

davo10 wrote: »

Op, the first thing to consider is, will this benefit you? If the property is undervalued, you really like it and it is likely to cost more if it is kept on the market, then it may be in your interest to pay the cash and get the property you want at a price lower than expected.

On the other hand, you could consider the moral dilemma in this, it is unsavoury to say the least to be asked for cash (even though a lot of buyers do offer it), and you could report the auctioneer but you no doubt will lose the property or at the very least have to pay more then the €10 extra for it.

It really comes down to your conscience and whether you want to seal that deal asap at a price which benefits you.

Mé féinism........

I just don't understand how someone can say "On the other hand, you could consider the moral dilemma in this".

There is no other hand here apart from the greedy one. The greedy hand of an auctioneer thinking he can get 10k to "guarantee" a deal (whatever that means) and the greedy hand of a person thinking that they can illegaly outdo other potential buyers.

ectoraige

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's illegal to record the call without informing him.

A note on this, it's not illegal to record a call you are making. It is illegal to record a conversation between two parties where neither party know about it. Once one person knows about it beforehand, there's nothing illegal. There may be question marks concerning admissibility in a court case however.

intheclouds

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Tone it down a little, it's the way the world works. Banks will get the price their willing to accept, seller gets his 10k and OP gets a bargain, everybody's happy.

Itd cost you less to walk into a shop and steal the stuff off the shelves instead of paying for them too.

drunkmonkey

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If the OP is in the market to purchase a house he's unlikely to be at risk of being homeless. Hyperbole much?

No but they'll overpay, if 10k saves 50k then it's a no brainier.

intheclouds

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No but they'll overpay, if 10k saves 50k then it's a no brainier.

Is that you Bertie?

wally1990

Personally, I'd report it. Regardless of good deal or not. Its illegal and we can't have this going on

davo10

laoisman11 wrote: »

Mé féinism........

I just don't understand how someone can say "On the other hand, you could consider the moral dilemma in this".

There is no other hand here apart from the greedy one. The greedy hand of an auctioneer thinking he can get 10k to "guarantee" a deal (whatever that means) and the greedy hand of a person thinking that they can illegaly outdo other potential buyers.

Welcome to the real world, don't think for a second that when you were buying your home, if the EA said that he could get you your house for €50k less if you paid him €5k, you wouldn't at least consider it.

I'm not saying it is right, but it is up to the op to at least consider the benefits to him/her of getting the house for less than it may be worth.

intheclouds

davo10 wrote: »

Welcome to the real world, don't think for a second that when you were buying your home, if the EA said that he could get you your house for €50k less if you paid him €5k, you wouldn't at least consider it.

I'm not saying it is right, but it is up to the op to at least consider the benefits to him/her of getting the house for less than it may be worth.

But the EA didnt say anything like that.

The OP stated that the Auctioneer said it would mean his offer would be accepted and the deal completed.

Nothing about it being cheaper to do it.