Ryanair insisting that passengers throw away their luggage

Dan133269

Hello all,

A couple of weeks ago my wife and her family flew return from Brussels to Mallorca. On the outbound flight, everything was fine. For the return flight a week later, when they arrived at the airport in Mallorca they were informed by the Ryanair worker at the desk that passengers could not bring checked-in luggage as there was a baggage-handler strike in Belgium and thus there would be no one at the airport to offload the luggage when the plane arrived.

The Ryanair worker explained that passengers were sent an email the day before explaining this situation. My wife had not been checking her emails on holiday naturally and had been unaware of this, as had most people on the flight. When she did check her emails, there was indeed an email sent from Ryanair the day before saying that passengers can either: (a) travel without bags and get a refund of the luggage fee, or (b) change the flight date.

The Ryanair workers at the airport stated that no other options were available to passengers. They flatly rejected the suggestion that they accept luggage and send it to Brussels on a different flight the next day to be collected by passengers. They said a passenger’s bags cannot travel on an airplane without the accompanying passenger as this is against their “policy”. When asked about the option of travelling the next day, Ryanair said that passengers would need to take care of their own accommodation as they would not pay for this.

Needless to say, having been unaware of any baggage handlers strike at the time of the outgoing flight, and still being unaware (having not seen the email sent the night before) of the situation, my wife and her family had no option but to discard their suitcases and some of the contents. Just before she did, my wife asked the representative at the desk that she seemed to have no other option than throwing away her suitcase and the representative responded by saying “yeah, I don’t know.” The Ryanair rep on the desk told passengers that they could try and claim for a reimbursement of the cost of the bags but they could not guarantee anything. The vast majority of people on the flight also discarded their suitcases. Some people left their suitcases randomly around the airport, some in front of shops, others on seats, etc.

Before I contact Ryanair (or attempt to contact as I should say seeing how hard they are to get through to), I would like to see if people have any views or opinions on this. Maybe I’m a bit simplistic but it seems to me if that if 2 people have a contract and 1 party fails to perform an integral part of that contract and blames it on a third party to which they have outsourced certain services, then that in no way frustrates the contract or absolves the party from their contractual obligations. And party B should be held liable for all foreseeable losses incurred by party A.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance,
Danny.

plodder

Sometimes bags do travel on different flights to their owners. Can't comment on the legalities exactly except to say (imo) Ryanair have to be in the wrong. The idea that simply sending an email absolves them of anything is ridiculous. Dealing with situations like this should be a normal aspect of Ryanair's business.

percy212

Totally unacceptable. An email? No that doesn't wash with such short notice. Press them for a full refund for luggage and contents AND hassle. If they won't pay open a small claims court case. That works.

coylemj

plodder wrote: »

Sometimes bags do travel on different flights to their owners.

It has been known to happen but never with the advance knowledge of the passenger(s) involved. That is for security reasons (since Lockerbie) so there is no way that Ryanair could have agreed to the suggestion that they send the bags on the next day on a different flight.

plodder

coylemj wrote: »

It has been known to happen but never with the advance knowledge of the passenger(s) involved. That is for security reasons (since Lockerbie) so there is no way that Ryanair could have agreed to the suggestion that they send the bags on the next day on a different flight.

If a passenger has advanced knowledge then that presents a security risk. That's not to say it doesn't happen though. I've taken flights where I knew in advance there was a good chance my baggage wouldn't make the connecting flight and on some occasions it didn't. Unaccompanied bags are given extra security checks anyway. And really it makes no difference to Ryanair's responsibility to sort the problem imho. The idea that you could take a flight somewhere and just by sending you an email they can cite some "policy" and refuse to take responsibility for getting your baggage home is mad to me. If they want to have that policy then they shouldn't accept checked baggage in the first place.

L1011

coylemj wrote: »

It has been known to happen but never with the advance knowledge of the passenger(s) involved. That is for security reasons (since Lockerbie) so there is no way that Ryanair could have agreed to the suggestion that they send the bags on the next day on a different flight.

Its extremely common in case of baggage handling issues of every kind (strikes, belt failures, loader failures etc) for pax to be completely aware of bags not being carried with them even before checkin.

Fred Swanson

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seamus

Reviewing the details, there is a sort of a rock and a hard place issue for the airline. Without baggage handlers, they basically can't take checked luggage, even at the check-in desk.

So they have two options;

1. Cancel the flight completely and wait for the strike to end.
2. Open the flight for hand luggage only

The airlines themselves got practically no notice about this, so they can't really be criticised for short notice.

Passengers were told they could take the flight without their checked bags or change their flight for free. Understandably a lot of people went for the former, I can see how you'd be pissed about it. But from a legal perspective it seems like the airline made reasonable attempts to give passengers different options; i.e. they weren't told, "fly out now without your luggage or lose your money".

In the case that a passenger selected the alternative flight, I would imagine the standard rules about flight delays and cancellations could be invoked and they could claim back expenses.

You might also get some satisfaction making a claim for lost luggage expenses, but ultimately it will come back to the fact that they had another option which didn't involve dumping their luggage at the airport.

intheclouds

seamus wrote: »

You might also get some satisfaction making a claim for lost luggage expenses, but ultimately it will come back to the fact that they had another option which didn't involve dumping their luggage at the airport.

What was the other option?

Fred Swanson

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FortySeven

intheclouds wrote: »

What was the other option?

Change flight date.

plodder

They could rebook passengers to a different airport and bus them on. I suspect their simple model means they probably don't have the technical capability to do this. But they have a massive network and they don't really leverage it at all with this simple point-to-point philosophy they have.

intheclouds

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Sorry I missed that.

Would they have covered the cost of a hotel for the night?

I really would have been inclined to try and wear everything in my suitcase just to get on the flight then I would have disrobed and stuffed it all into an overhead luggage compartment and possibly requested a doctor cos Id overheated.

Fred Swanson

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seamus

intheclouds wrote: »

Would they have covered the cost of a hotel for the night?

I'm not sure, Ryanair cleverly delete any travel updates after the travel date has passed so you can't review what they said.

I would like to think that it's covered by the same rules as cancellations so the airline would have to cover accomodation.
But the rules don't generally oblige airlines to compensate passengers for industrial action which wasn't reasonably forseeable.

And they technically kept the flight open, they didn't cancel it.

So it may be the case that the passengers' costs are considered a result of industrial action and the airline is not at all liable.

Jan Laco

I'd change my thread title for a start. You haven't included anything saying they insisted you throw away your luggage.

Ryanair are not FedEx, why should they be responsible for your luggage. They are there to fly you as a passenger to your destination. Your luggage is your responsibility and you did have a choice.

Fred Swanson

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markpb

Jan Laco wrote: »

Ryanair are not FedEx, why should they be responsible for your luggage. They are there to fly you as a passenger to your destination. Your luggage is your responsibility and you did have a choice.

Since they charge for carrying luggage, I'd say that makes it their responsibility.

domrush

Jan Laco wrote: »

I'd change my thread title for a start. You haven't included anything saying they insisted you throw away your luggage.

Ryanair are not FedEx, why should they be responsible for your luggage. They are there to fly you as a passenger to your destination. Your luggage is your responsibility and you did have a choice.

Ridiculous view, if they're accepting payment to carry luggage of course they have responsibility for the transport of it.

FortySeven

Jan Laco wrote: »

I'd change my thread title for a start. You haven't included anything saying they insisted you throw away your luggage.

Ryanair are not FedEx, why should they be responsible for your luggage. They are there to fly you as a passenger to your destination. Your luggage is your responsibility and you did have a choice.

Agree about thread title. It is misleading, I would not have read the thread were it not so sensationalist.

I think Ryanair has done everything they could be expected to do here. Not checking emails about your travel arrangements is a bit short sighted.

This is one reason I only ever fly with hand luggage.

Fred Swanson

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cruizer101

FortySeven wrote: »

I think Ryanair has done everything they could be expected to do here. Not checking emails about your travel arrangements is a bit short sighted.

This is one reason I only ever fly with hand luggage.

They sent the email the day before, I'm not sure it would have made a whole lot of difference had the passengers read it, they would still be face with the same dilemma of throw away luggage or change flight which may not have been possible.

I try to always fly with only hand luggage myself but again it is not always possible, fair enough for sun holidays but try fit all your gear for a skiing holiday into hand luggage and you will seriously struggle.

Ryanair were paid to transfer the OP and their luggage, which they did not do, they are at fault. That said I would say the OP will have a struggle on their hands to get appropriate compensation.

Red Kev

We had this before when flying to Frankfurt, something was wrong at the other end and In Dublin airport we were told hand baggage only. So Aer Lingus took the hold baggage and sent it on a couple of days later. It was delivered to the house, the same way as if it had been a suitcase lost en route.

I accept that it's short notice but Ryanair could have/(should have?) done the same, after all plenty of baggage goes missing every day.

What I find odd is that the unattended bags were just left lying around the airport, surely it's the responsibility of the airport to do something about that?

FortySeven

Fred Swanson wrote: »

That is a bit disingenuous. People on holidays generally don't have email access.

Ryanair could have easily sent a SMS to each passenger. More chance of that being seen.

In this day and age? Anywhere Ryanair fly to is fairly developed. It is the customers responsibility to check for changes to their travel arrangements and I'll gamble this is in ryanairs terms and conditions.

Not saying what happened was deserved or not inconvenient but not a notion of getting anything for it

Customer was informed, failed to check.
Option of another flight was given.
Problem caused by outside agency. Not Ryanair.

Fred Swanson

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FortySeven

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I don't think they can wriggle off the hook that easily. Vicarious liability.

But the baggage handlers do not fall under ryanairs employment. They are not direct agents either.

Don't think this is valid.

Fred Swanson

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plodder

FortySeven wrote: »

In this day and age? Anywhere Ryanair fly to is fairly developed. It is the customers responsibility to check for changes to their travel arrangements and I'll gamble this is in ryanairs terms and conditions.

It certainly used to be the case, that you had to phone to confirm flight times on a return flight. So, if you failed to do that, and the flight left an hour early then you were on sticky ground. And I suppose checking email is kind of the modern day equivalent of that.

However, in my book that only allows them to make reasonable changes to schedules etc. Like they couldn't decide to reschedule your flight 5 days early or later. And they still have an obligation to get both you and your baggage home.

There seems to be a recurring theme with Ryanair that so long as they offer you a refund of whatever aspect of the service you're not getting, that's the extent of their liability, which I think is BS, regardless of what it says in their T&Cs. Also blaming problems on third parties just sounds so bad. It may actually be out of your control, but you still have to deal with the problem. It's part of doing business.

wakka12

Jan Laco wrote: »

I'd change my thread title for a start. You haven't included anything saying they insisted you throw away your luggage.

Ryanair are not FedEx, why should they be responsible for your luggage. They are there to fly you as a passenger to your destination. Your luggage is your responsibility and you did have a choice.

They allow luggage on the flight and that luggage space is paid for as part of your plane ticket. They're not hauling all that weight abroad for free. And if they take your money for it,then they are responsible for your luggage .

Pat Mustard

Many off topic posts deleted.

Please try to keep on topic, with legal discussion.

Dan133269

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Just to address a few points:

coylemj wrote: »

It has been known to happen but never with the advance knowledge of the passenger(s) involved. That is for security reasons (since Lockerbie) so there is no way that Ryanair could have agreed to the suggestion that they send the bags on the next day on a different flight.

It does happen. It happened recently to my sister in law when travelling from Istanbul to Brussels. Turkish Airlines sent her bag afterwards and delivered it to the house via taxi.

Security concerns are easily solved with scans and inspection.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Security was apparently non-existent at the airport. The Ryanair staff all stayed behind the cabin and didn't leave.

seamus wrote: »

I can see how you'd be pissed about it. But from a legal perspective it seems like the airline made reasonable attempts to give passengers different options; i.e. they weren't told, "fly out now without your luggage or lose your money".

They were effectively told that. Passengers would have to stay at their own cost in order to get the flight the following day.

intheclouds wrote: »

Sorry I missed that.

Would they have covered the cost of a hotel for the night?

Ryanair expressly refused this. They simply said "we don't do that."

Jan Laco wrote: »

Ryanair are not FedEx, why should they be responsible for your luggage. They are there to fly you as a passenger to your destination. Your luggage is your responsibility and you did have a choice.

What planet are you living on?

FortySeven wrote: »

Customer was informed, failed to check.
Option of another flight was given.
Problem caused by outside agency. Not Ryanair.

Customer was most definitely NOT informed. An attempted communication does not constitute communication. If they wanted to tell people, they should have called them, they had all the telephone numbers.

Option of another flight is irrelevant. Payment in kind/datio in solutum is only acceptable at the discretion of the other party.

Problem caused by outside agency again does not absolve Ryanair of their contractual obligations. They chose to outsource these services. Again, please explain legally how this gets them off the hook.

I've emailed Ryanair (after much searching to find an email address) so let's see what they say. I'd be amazed if there's no specific rule on this in the consumer aviation law. Surely it's something for policymakers to address in the future.

Fred Swanson

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Dan133269

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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The people at Mallorca airport were Ryanair staff, wearing Ryanair uniforms and in a Ryanair booth/hatch (completely protected by glass by the way).

Fred Swanson

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JinkyJackson

Dan133269 wrote:

The people at Mallorca airport were Ryanair staff, wearing Ryanair uniforms and in a Ryanair booth/hatch (completely protected by glass by the way).

I was in Palma airport recently, they dress in the uniform but they are locals with terrible english

L1011

Dan133269 wrote: »

The people at Mallorca airport were Ryanair staff, wearing Ryanair uniforms and in a Ryanair booth/hatch (completely protected by glass by the way).

They were Iberia Handling or Servisair staff in Ryanair uniforms.

Riskymove

Just my own views here

I also travelled to Brussels ion the day of the strike

I received BOTH an email and a text the day before informing me of the situation. I can only assume Ryanair would do the same for all passengers that they could.

I wonder did the OP provide a phone number when booking?



It was also open to the passengers to rebook for the next day and claim back the cost from travel insurance

Fred Swanson

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Riskymove

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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or assuming that they learned a lesson about not having it

plodder

I'm sure they'd like everyone to just claim off travel insurance, but the EU 261 rules are pretty clear. You're entitled to up to €1220 compensation for lost, delayed or damaged luggage. So, regardless of what procedures Ryanair puts in place, they are liable for not delivering your bags to your destination.

Fred Swanson

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notharrypotter

plodder wrote: »

I'm sure they'd like everyone to just claim off travel insurance, but the EU 261 rules are pretty clear. You're entitled to up to €1220 compensation for lost, delayed or damaged luggage. So, regardless of what procedures Ryanair puts in place, they are liable for not delivering your bags to your destination.

Curious if you do not actually check in your bag can they be held liable?

Fred Swanson

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plodder

notharrypotter wrote: »

Curious if you do not actually check in your bag can they be held liable?

You'd have to read the fine-print I guess, but the fact that they are taking your money suggests an obligation to accept and check your bags in.

jackinthemix94

Something similar happened to me during one of the french air strike, and I got an SMS as well, with a link to the relevant webpage. I mean in fairness it's 2016, do people genuinely not check their emails on holiday?

L1011

jackinthemix94 wrote: »

I mean in fairness it's 2016, do people genuinely not check their emails on holiday?

Frequently. No wifi, no roaming, no interest in doing it while on holiday.

ohnonotgmail

jackinthemix94 wrote: »

Something similar happened to me during one of the french air strike, and I got an SMS as well, with a link to the relevant webpage. I mean in fairness it's 2016, do people genuinely not check their emails on holiday?

some people like to totally disconnect. why would that be surprising?

jackinthemix94

Because we don't live in a world that is particularly accepting of that anymore? I mean if you're working retail or something then maybe, but in reality most jobs now would require some level of connectivity, even when on holiday, thats just the reality.

ohnonotgmail

jackinthemix94 wrote: »

Because we don't live in a world that is particularly accepting of that anymore? I mean if you're working retail or something then maybe, but in reality most jobs now would require some level of connectivity, even when on holiday, thats just the reality.

maybe you don't. When i go on holiday i like to be on holiday. not worrying about what is happening back in the office.

seamus

plodder wrote: »

You'd have to read the fine-print I guess, but the fact that they are taking your money suggests an obligation to accept and check your bags in.

Nope. Provided they refund the cost of checking-in the luggage they have no obligation to take it.

Ultimately in terms of a contract, the passengers found themselves at the airport with their carrier unable to fulfill that contract. They have two options in reality:

1. Get a full refund of the amount paid
2. Renegotiate the contract

Ryanair don't offer option 1, but it's always there. And you'd be badly out of pocket if you went that way.

There will be other rules about carriers having to offer alternative arrangements in the case of delays or cancellations, etc. But the rules regarding delayed or lost luggage only apply to luggage which has been checked in and handed over to the airline.

intheclouds

jackinthemix94 wrote: »

Because we don't live in a world that is particularly accepting of that anymore? I mean if you're working retail or something then maybe, but in reality most jobs now would require some level of connectivity, even when on holiday, thats just the reality.

No way. Wouldnt go near an email account on holidays. Often wouldnt be in places where there is internet.