tagging on with annual Luas Leap card

tea and coffee

I have an annual ticket. I asked the inspectors if I have to tag on (even though it's an annual ticket and costs the same whether I use it once or 1000 times). They said yes. I haven't been in a situation where I haven't tagged yet, but I wonder if I didnt, would I get fined.

LXFlyer

tea and coffee wrote: »

I have an annual ticket. I asked the inspectors if I have to tag on (even though it's an annual ticket and costs the same whether I use it once or 1000 times). They said yes. I haven't been in a situation where I haven't tagged yet, but I wonder if I didnt, would I get fined.

Firstly you don't have an annual LEAP card. You have a LEAP card that is loaded with an annual ticket.

As for being fined, you could yes. Tagging on means you have validated the ticket loaded on your card for that trip.

Tagging on and off also provides statistics for passenger journeys.

magicbastarder

i never tagged on with my annual ticket and never got any sniff of a fine; the ticket is prepaid so fare evasion is a tough one to prove.

the reason given for tagging on when i asked about this (sent an email to them) was that 'it keeps the software on the card up to date'. there was no mention of it being required to validate the ticket before boarding.

tea and coffee

My query is why I need to "validate" other than to provide passenger stats. The ticket loaded is valid for the year irrespective of how many times I use it. I have paid in advance so it is not "subtracting" any balance. If I was on the bus (olden days), I could show it to the driver, ditto Dart (olden days)

Captain Chaos

tea and coffee wrote: »

My query is why I need to "validate" other than to provide passenger stats. The ticket loaded is valid for the year irrespective of how many times I use it. I have paid in advance so it is not "subtracting" any balance. If I was on the bus (olden days), I could show it to the driver, ditto Dart (olden days)

Well there was no Leap card in the olden days so now you have to tag on the Luas, Bus and Dart with an annual loaded Leap card.

In a DART station the barrier won't open for you unless you tag so there is a reason right there.

goingnowhere

They could never secure a conviction for fare evasion in this scenario. You have paid the fare, you have proof of that.

The reader held by the CSO should light green as it is looking for a valid ticket

Thats either tagged on on epruse or matching product ticket is within valid date range

https://www.luas.ie/luas-byelaws.html

“ticket” means any ticket or document or electronic method of storing travel value issued by or on behalf of an operator for the conveyance of any person on a light rail vehicle and includes any season ticket, commuter ticket, free pass, privilege ticket, or any warrant, identity card, voucher or other similar authority in exchange for or on production of which any ticket for the conveyance of any person may be issued;

“valid ticket” means a ticket for which the correct fare has been paid for the journey being undertaken and which is in force when the journey is being undertaken;

And

(j) where the validity of any ticket depends on the ticket being properly validated using a ticket validating machine, use or attempt to use a ticket which has not been so validated.

Annual ticket is valid between fixed dates and requires no validation.

LXFlyer

Monthly and annual tickets on LEAP DO have to be validated, i.e. Tagged on, every time a journey is made.

Saying they do not is incorrect.

LEAP T & Cs:
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d

2.5 You must have a valid ticket to travel. This means that when using Travel Credit or a ticket pre-loaded onto the Leap Card, you must always successfully “Touch-On” prior to commencing any journey. Leap Card customers will receive visual and/or audible signal notification when they successfully Touch-On.

goingnowhere

But the Leap T&C's have no legal standing, you can only be fined under the bye laws of the transport operator.

Vic_08

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Well there was no Leap card in the olden days so now you have to tag on the Luas, Bus and Dart with an annual loaded Leap card.

In a DART station the barrier won't open for you unless you tag so there is a reason right there.

Bus and rail use restricted entry as a primary means of revenue protection so on those presenting card is necessary, although a station with open barriers is an exception.

Luas used on-board spot checks as revenue protection.

Tapping a periodic pass loaded card preforms no revenue function, the LEAP is equally valid either way.

It may be in their T&C and although I believe it very unlikely they could issue a fine but IMO it would not be a successful prosecution.

If you stood in front of a judge and stated that you had a valid ticket, presented it when requested, informed them of such after issue of penalty and they still proceeded with prosecution you would walk away with no fine and they would get a bollocking from the bench.

That is just my opinion and if I had such a ticket I wouldn't bother tapping it at Luas stops.

One of the benefits of such a ticket should be not having to deal with needless validating, FFS it makes a paper period ticket a more convenient option if Leap users are forced to constantly validate a pre-loaded ticket.

LXFlyer

Vic_08 wrote: »

Bus and rail use restricted entry as a primary means of revenue protection so on those presenting card is necessary, although a station with open barriers is an exception.

Luas used on-board spot checks as revenue protection.

Tapping a periodic pass loaded card preforms no revenue function, the LEAP is equally valid either way.

It may be in their T&C and although I believe it very unlikely they could issue a fine but IMO it would not be a successful prosecution.

If you stood in front of a judge and stated that you had a valid ticket, presented it when requested, informed them of such after issue of penalty and they still proceeded with prosecution you would walk away with no fine and they would get a bollocking from the bench.

That is just my opinion and if I had such a ticket I wouldn't bother tapping it at Luas stops.

One of the benefits of such a ticket should be not having to deal with needless validating, FFS it makes a paper period ticket a more convenient option if Leap users are forced to constantly validate a pre-loaded ticket.

Aside from validating the ticket, how else are planners going to get meaningful transport statistics if people don't tag on and off - there is a point to all of this.

Proper data means far more accurate planning for the future. It also means more accurate financial reporting in terms of passenger numbers and passenger mms travelled.

Tagging on and off takes only a few seconds.

goingnowhere

Just try tagging off at St Stephen's Green at rush hour, it a nightmare to locate the validator and beat a path to it.

Now if they placed the validators at doors on the tram like Amsterdam you would have no problem.

LXFlyer

goingnowhere wrote: »

Just try tagging off at St Stephen's Green at rush hour, it a nightmare to locate the validator and beat a path to it.

Now if they placed the validators at doors on the tram like Amsterdam you would have no problem.

I generally use the opposite platform.

tea and coffee

I don't bother tagging off.

SSG is a nightmare, as you say. Waste of time. Tagging on is bad enough.

Losty Dublin

Vic_08 wrote: »

Tapping a periodic pass loaded card preforms no revenue function, the LEAP is equally valid either way.

Tagging on before traveling is however proof that you have the correct ticket to travel in the first instance.

ted1

magicbastarder wrote: »

i never tagged on with my annual ticket and never got any sniff of a fine; the ticket is prepaid so fare evasion is a tough one to prove.

the reason given for tagging on when i asked about this (sent an email to them) was that 'it keeps the software on the card up to date'. there was no mention of it being required to validate the ticket before boarding.

Tagging on allows them to see how many passengers they carry and at what time of day people use it.

tea and coffee

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Tagging on before traveling is however proof that you have the correct ticket to travel in the first instance.

Looking at my ticket confirms that it is the correct ticket. It says Luas Annual Tax saver, and has an expiry.

Losty Dublin

tea and coffee wrote: »

Looking at my ticket confirms that it is the correct ticket. It says Luas Annual Tax saver, and has an expiry.

A pass loaded onto a leap card may also be cancelled for any number of reasons. Tagging on ensures that the pass is indeed valid at the time of travel.

Is your Luas Annual Pass not loaded onto a Leap Card in the same way that periodic bus and rail ones are?

skywanderer

I was with my Uncle today and he has the Free Travel Card as he is late sixties on a Pension. Do they have to tag on and off also? Or just have the card ready for inspection if asked by the Ticket Inspector?

LXFlyer

skywanderer wrote: »

I was with my Uncle today and he has the Free Travel Card as he is late sixties on a Pension. Do they have to tag on and off also? Or just have the card ready for inspection if asked by the Ticket Inspector?

Anyone with a smart card be it LEAP or DSP should be tagging on every time they make a journey.

whomitconcerns

You must tag on with oyster in London also. Admittedly there is usually a barrier but you are required to tag on and off irregardless

LXFlyer

tea and coffee wrote: »

Looking at my ticket confirms that it is the correct ticket. It says Luas Annual Tax saver, and has an expiry.

If it's loaded onto a LEAP card how do you know what an inspector can see?

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

But the Leap T&C's have no legal standing, you can only be fined under the bye laws of the transport operator.

Why do you think T&Cs may have no legal standing, they do.

You are correct that you are fined under Luas Bye-Laws, but as pointed out by yourself from the bye-laws:-

(j) where the validity of any ticket depends on the ticket being properly validated using a ticket validating machine, use or attempt to use a ticket which has not been so validated.

Validity of the Leap card is dependent on the card being validated via touch on as per the Luas T&Cs as shown already. If you havn't touched on then you havn't got a "valid ticket" as per the conditions applicable to the use of Leap.

T&Cs would be considered as terms under contract law which has just as much a "legal standing" as any other form of law.

You arn't prosecuted under contract law or the T&Cs but as they legally dictate weather you have a valid ticket or not they have just as much a "legal standing" as any bye-law etc.

The only difference being one is criminal law and the other is contract law and all tickets are issue under contract law.

LXFlyer

Whatever about the legal ins and outs, how hard is it just to comply with tagging on every time?

It's as if people are just trying to find any excuse not to follow a simple procedure.

lil5

lxflyer wrote: »

Whatever about the legal ins and outs, how hard is it just to comply with tagging on every time?

It's as if people are just trying to find any excuse not to follow a simple procedure.

It's a total daft procedure asking yearly ticket holders to tag on and off on their 200+ days of daily commute, in particular on the Luas.

Del2005

lil5 wrote: »

It's a total daft procedure asking yearly ticket holders to tag on and off on their 200+ days of daily commute, in particular on the Luas.

If you don't tag on does the Luas get paid for carrying you? If they aren't being paid to carry you is your ticket valid?

LXFlyer

lil5 wrote: »

It's a total daft procedure asking yearly ticket holders to tag on and off on their 200+ days of daily commute, in particular on the Luas.

No it isn't.

As I pointed out above it provides accurate data on passenger numbers - how many and where they're travelling to and from.

This feeds into planning for the future and reporting passenger km's travelled.

How else do you think they're going to get accurate data? Off the back of an envelope?

Just because it wasn't done before with paper tickets doesn't mean we shouldn't start now.

This is usual Irish psyche of moaning about something relatively small for moaning's sake.

magicbastarder

GM228 wrote: »

Validity of the Leap card is dependent on the card being validated via touch on as per the Luas T&Cs as shown already. If you havn't touched on then you havn't got a "valid ticket" as per the conditions applicable to the use of Leap.

certainly up to december, the ticket inspectors did not care, as i had an annual bus and luas card which was very rarely tagged on on the luas, and never got any hassle about it.

Dravokivich

lil5 wrote: »

It's a total daft procedure asking yearly ticket holders to tag on and off on their 200+ days of daily commute, in particular on the Luas.

If anything needs to be amended on your leapcard, it'll never receive the update if it doesn't use a leap device via tag on/off.

That includes getting new period tickets in the lead up to when they are due to be updated. Or even if for some reason during the period, a configuration for the ticket or anything on the leapcard is changed.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Whatever about the legal ins and outs, how hard is it just to comply with tagging on every time?

It's as if people are just trying to find any excuse not to follow a simple procedure.

Some stops have such limited numbers of tag points that it introduces a significant delay. More people using them and that gets even worse

markpb

L1011 wrote:

Some stops have such limited numbers of tag points that it introduces a significant delay. More people using them and that gets even worse

This is my biggest concern. St Stephens Green is bad enough without having almost every passenger on the tram attempting to use to the validators. Yes, you can use the far platforms one but you'll still have to queue with everyone else to get to them.

syklops

A ticket inspector told me it was a good idea to tag my annual ticket on occasionally just to keep it "fresh". So I tag on every so often, but I never tag off.

If Transdev forced me to tag on and off for every journey using a monthly or yearly ticket on a leap card or risk paying a fine, I'd just go back to paper tickets.

Vic_08

syklops wrote: »

If Transdev forced me to tag on and off for every journey using a monthly or yearly ticket on a leap card or risk paying a fine, I'd just go back to paper tickets.

That.

Ridiculous to introduce new technology and make it less user friendly than existing formats.

The user data that apparently is so valuable from enforced tagging is incomplete anyway as paper tickets are not logged. Users can be counted in other ways, door step counters for example.

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

Whatever about the legal ins and outs, how hard is it just to comply with tagging on every time?

It's as if people are just trying to find any excuse not to follow a simple procedure.

Personally I just forget on the Luas when I get off. As you don't always pass the scanner as you leave the platform. The design of the platform has a lot to do with it, I generally always remember if the luas platform, funnels you past the scanner. Forget sometimes if it doesn't. Sometimes I remember on returning to the platform. So I scan off then. But then it means I can't scan back on before the next luas!

On the Train you naturally pass through the gate to exit. Though if your hands are full, say you have a bicycle it can be pain. Depends where you have the card.

My leap used not scan through the wallet until I rearranged the Leap card to keep it on the outside and keep the other cards as far away from it as possible.

beauf

Be great if they had a bluetooth or NFC scanner that would do it automatically.

Though they have to have a means to control non annual tickets, so they'll always have to have some sort of scanner, I suppose.

JimsAlterEgo

Having something in T&C does not make it legally enforcable, this is a prime case of it. You have a valid ticket, I would argue same for Dublin Bus.

L1011

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

Having something in T&C does not make it legally enforcable, this is a prime case of it. You have a valid ticket, I would argue same for Dublin Bus.

DB required validation of the paper equivalents though. This is an extra requirement on Leap and the equipment simply isn't there at many stops. Whereas some are ludicrously over equipped, Spencer Dock for instance

morrga

magicbastarder wrote: »

i never tagged on with my annual ticket and never got any sniff of a fine; the ticket is prepaid so fare evasion is a tough one to prove.

the reason given for tagging on when i asked about this (sent an email to them) was that 'it keeps the software on the card up to date'. there was no mention of it being required to validate the ticket before boarding.

I was told it was to track traveling numbers. There is no neccesity. I never tag and they don't bother telling me to tag on any more.