Season 7 - Speculation Thread - "Book readers"

Hans Bricks

I really can't imagine picking up from Season 6 and finishing off the rest of the series adequately in 13 episodes. Unless they're all an hour and a half long each.

Between Dany vs Euron on the sea, then Cersei/the Lannisters and taking KL, Sam discovering important information in Oldtown, Jon Rallying the North for the Great war, Sansa and Littlefinger's next power play / conflict between the North and the Vale, Dany probably fighting the North and/or meeting Sam, being convinced on the war to come, marching North to meet Jon, the Jon Starkgaryen revelations, the WW actually attacking the wall and marching South .... then they have to actually do battle with the living, the aftermath of the war, closing all the relevant arcs .....

It all seems a bit too gargantuan a task to complete in only 13 episodes.

J. Marston

The directors for season 7 have been revealed...

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/29/game-thrones-season-7

No Sapochnik and Mylod coming back. Boo!

Washington Irving

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He was in the cave with the three eyed raven after he was touched and that didn't instantly cause him any harm. The Three eyed Raven didn't say anything about this either.

There were magical barriers around the cave to prevent the Others entering, Bran's presence there after being marked seemed to allow them to enter.

Many have concluded that a 'marked' Bran passing the Wall will also lead to the Others being able to pass south.

Daith

RopeDrink wrote: »

Littlefinger is infatuated with Sansa much like he was Cat, and his vision of being on the throne with her at his side (speech from the show) doesn't necessarily mean she has to be 'willing'. I could see the arc spinning off to a point where his soothsaying and serpent tongue isn't working its magic on her like before, so resorts to other measures to have an ace up his sleeve against Jon et al. Most people are suspecting Sansa will turn on Jon but I've a feeling it won't be that clear cut. She's a bit wiser to Baelish now so unless he works some super-magic charisma on her, she won't be turned against Jon (least not yet, or by him).

Still have a feeling that Sansa will take control of the Vale from him. There is a very circular story happening and that would make sense. I think we're going to see tension between Sansa and Jon but think the pack will survive. If Jon ever has a child I could see his child being raised at the Vale.

Mousewar

Daith wrote: »

Still have a feeling that Sansa will take control of the Vale from him.

Interesting. Perhaps she can take the ground from underneath Littlefinger by marrying Robin and becoming de facto ruler of the Knights of the Vale. Robin has seemed particularly attached to Sansa so I suspect she may be able to influence him more than Littlefinger in the same way that Margery was able to exert more influence over Tommen than Cersei was.

Daith

Mousewar wrote: »

Interesting. Perhaps she can take the ground from underneath Littlefinger by marrying Robin and becoming de facto ruler of the Knights of the Vale. Robin has seemed particularly attached to Sansa so I suspect she may be able to influence him more than Littlefinger in the same way that Margery was able to exert more influence over Tommen than Cersei was.

Uniting the Starks and Arryns would be quite interesting giving how close Jon and Ned were. While Sansa might manipulate Robin I don't think she'd actually harm him.

Besides I think the Vale knows they need a strong leader and would probably prefer Sansa over Littlefinger?

Riskymove

wp_rathead wrote: »

So starting off Season 7 lets see how the chess board of Game of Thrones is looking after Season 6


En Route to Westeros:
Dany
Tyrion Lannister
Varys
Greyworm
Theon Greyjoy
Yara Greyjoy
Missandre
3 Dragons

The Tyrells and Martells are with Dany en route to westoros

Frank O. Pinion

Aegon's absence is really noticeable now:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/142069-aegons-absence-is-really-noticeable-now/&page=1

Anyone agree with the above opinion? I do. End of the TV series seems very predictable, with Daenerys overpowered, and Jon Snow's bloodline being revealed. Without Aegon VI, there's not as many twists and turns.

intheclouds

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Aegon's absence is really noticeable now:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/142069-aegons-absence-is-really-noticeable-now/&page=1

Anyone agree with the above opinion? I do. End of the TV series seems very predictable, with Daenerys overpowered, and Jon Snow's bloodline being revealed. Without Aegon VI, there's not as many twists and turns.

Wont be able to agree with any of that til I see how they play out the tv show.

They surprised me with Tommen jumping. And with Riverrun.

CMOTDibbler

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Aegon's absence is really noticeable now:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/142069-aegons-absence-is-really-noticeable-now/&page=1

Anyone agree with the above opinion? I do. End of the TV series seems very predictable, with Daenerys overpowered, and Jon Snow's bloodline being revealed. Without Aegon VI, there's not as many twists and turns.

The Tower of Why has been moaning about the TV show for ever. It's been pretty obvious that Faegon is a red herring in the books for some time. The reference to 'The Mummer's dragon' and his late entry into the story seems only to be intended to muddle the endgame rather than be an integral part of the story.

He's lost half his army already in ADWD and although it looks like Dorne is on his side, how long before Dorne turn away from him when Dany arrives? I always believed that he was a plot device to keep the attention on evemts in Westeros and off what Dany is doing in Essos.

Frank O. Pinion

Red herring or not, (f)Aegon creates an interesting dynamic for the endgame of the series, which is absent for the TV show, which should be using anything to make things less predictable. Also, without (f)Aegon, why did Varys support the plot to assassinate Daenerys Targaryen, in the first season, but presently is working with/for her?

intheclouds wrote: »

They surprised me with Tommen jumping.

He was always going to die. The choice of suicide was surprising, I guess.

CMOTDibbler

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Red herring or not, (f)Aegon creates an interesting dynamic for the endgame of the series, which is absent for the TV show, which should be using anything to make things less predictable. Also, without (f)Aegon, why did Varys support the plot to assassinate Daenerys Targaryen, in the first season, but presently is working with/for her?

In the books it's just about ok. On the TV show it would seem even more fake. Just at the endgame another Targaryen appears out of nowhere even though we've been told over and over that he was slaughtered by The Mountain.

Varys' intentions are never clear although he has said that he wants Westeros to be stable and secure. I'm not sure he definitively supported the plot to assassinate Dany either. He often looks to be working with somebody only for it to turn out that he's working against them in secret.

ArmaniJeanss

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Also, without (f)Aegon, why did Varys support the plot to assassinate Daenerys Targaryen, in the first season, but presently is working with/for her?

Wasn't it more that he obeyed a direct order from King Robert, it doesn't necessarily mean he supported the plot?
Also it can be retro-fitted that he deliberately chose an incompetent assassin.

But (and I'm a bit confused here myself). Did Dany actually matter to Varys at the time? When Robert gave the kill order did the Small Council still believe Viserys was still alive? Dany is only a pawn in the story until Viserys dies, so Varys may have seen her as dispensable. His chosen one Viserys leading the angry widower Drogo's army back to Westeros would suit Varys fine.

Conall Cernach

Did Varys not tip off Jorah that there was an assassin coming?

duffman13

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Did Varys not tip off Jorah that there was an assassin coming?

Not specifically, at least in the tv show, I think Jorah realised she was going to be assassinated when he received the royal pardon from the king. That pardon came on the same day as the assassin, so it was maybe a heads up from Varys.

Daith

Is it possible Varys told Selmy about Dany's location?

DeadHand

Given his exploits at the Wall, Hardhome and Winterfell is it now fair to start talking about Jon Snow as a warrior in the same breath as Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy?

Daith

DeadHand wrote: »

Given his exploits at the Wall, Hardhome and Winterfell is it now fair to start talking about Jon Snow as a warrior in the same breath as Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy?

Didn't Selmy and Dayne duel people? Jon would seem more a battle commander than skilled warrior maybe?

DeadHand

Daith wrote: »

Didn't Selmy and Dayne duel people? Jon would seem more a battle commander than skilled warrior maybe?

I'd say the opposite- he's been a pish poor commander but a brilliant warrior.

Jon's prowess as a warrior has far surpassed his as a battle commander -Thorne organised the defence of the Wall, when Jon assumed command his lead was more by example than strategy, Craster's Keep was a small scale raid, Hardhome was a desperate massacre not a tactical battle and the one time he did command in a major pitched battle, at Winterfell, he made a Leeroy Jenkins style mess of it.

Yet, on an individual level, he fought like an absolute demon in every engagement taking out busloads of vicious Wildlings, zombies and hardened Northern soldiers. In terms of duels, he has taken down a Then Chief and a White Walker- those are legendary scalps to take before even mention the fookin' legend of Gin Alley.

J. Marston

Yep, stories will spread about Jon now. Dany will probably hear about the fierce White Wolf who reclaimed Winterfell with a force three times smaller than his enemies'. The Knights of the Vale riding in to save the day will be omitted, for dramatic effect.

She'll want a bit of that.

Frank O. Pinion

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

In the books it's just about ok. On the TV show it would seem even more fake. Just at the endgame another Targaryen appears out of nowhere even though we've been told over and over that he was slaughtered by The Mountain.

Ideally, for the TV series, (f)Aegon would have made an appearance in the season 4 finale, or very start of season 5.

Any interview/articles with Benioff and Weiss discussing (f)Aegon? Probably not, but I'd love hear their reasoning on not using him.

DeadHand

J. Marston wrote: »

Yep, stories will spread about Jon now. Dany will probably hear about the fierce White Wolf who reclaimed Winterfell with a force three times smaller than his enemies'. The Knights of the Vale riding in to save the day will be omitted, for dramatic effect.

She'll want a bit of that.

And yet...

Ned Stark was a key figure in the rebellion that got Dany's family butchered. She has as much love for the Starks as she had for the Baratheons and has for what's left of the Lannisters. She took in Tyrion but Tyrion, as a disowned outsider of unique talent, is an exceptional case. Jon has been an outsider too but, with Sansa by his side, is much closer to the old regime- he owes his Kingship in the North in a large part to the love for the Starks that is still strong there. The North in general will not tolerate being ruled over by another Targ, considering what Aerys did to the beloved Starks and the blood they spilled in avenging them.

Nor is Dany likely to tolerate a King in the North. Hard to see Dany granting Jon independence as she has promised for the Iron Islands- the North is a much larger, more important chunk of the seven kingdoms she sees as hers than the Iron Islands and the Northerners have been notoriously rebellious in recent history rising against both Aerys and Joffrey.

Cersei is the common enemy as it stands... Whether Jon marches South (what he may be manipulated into/forced to do) or consolidates the North against the White Walkers (what he wants to do) has much to do with what happens at the Wall and which move Littlefinger makes next.

Jon and Dany could well come into conflict before realising they are related. Having said that, Tyrion may be key in brokering some kind of deal between them- he knows and likes Jon. Some Davos vs. Tyrion diplomatic arm wrestling would make for juicy television. Cersei mightn't be an enemy of the magnitude to unite Stark and Targ though the WWs should be.

Interesting too to see how the Imp advises Dany to approach Littlefinger- Tyrion is clever enough never to trust LF but he does not hate him yet: so far as I recall LF is one of the few Kingslanding players who never wronged him... To Tyrion's knowledge. If the truth about Joffrey's death comes to light that could change. And Baelish has conspired with Olleanna Tyrell before who now finds herself firmly on the Dragon's side. As ever, LF has a foot in all camps.

Having said all that, Varys more than anyone understands exactly what LF is so... Any counsel Dany T gets on LF from her advisors will likely involve heads and pikes.

GerB40

I can picture a scene when The False King in the North (As Daenerys will no doubt call him) finally gets face to face with Dany and her dragons and after he does a Ned on it, "I'd rather die with honour than bend my knee to the daughter of the man that murdered so much of my blood" Daenerys reluctantly says Dracarys but before we get a BastardBQ one of the quieter Dragons jumps in to save Jon. After a few moments of confusion the dust clears to reveal Jon sitting on Rheagon (Named after his Da) and the camera will pan between two very confused dragon riders.
The fact that he can control a dragon would be more proof that he's Rheagar's son.

Ben Gadot

Littlefinger having a foot in each camp would, you would assume, be the thing that eventually undoes him.

You can't keep playing all sides like, he has to be spectacularly exposed at some point.

Tyrion should also be aware of Baelish's role in Ned's death, that alone should cause Jon to flip.

DeadHand

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Tyrion should also be aware of Baelish's role in Ned's death, that alone should cause Jon to flip.

This is a good point, were none of the crowd (many of whom would have loved Ned) in Winterfell aware of the part LF played in betraying Ned? Sansa was there, she must have known- you could understand her keeping it quiet since they sort of need him. Did Davos not know? None of the Northern lords? We know Jon knows nothing.

Just struck me as odd: LF chilling in a room full of men who should despise him.

GerB40

DeadHand wrote: »

This is a good point, were none of the crowd (many of whom would have loved Ned) in Winterfell aware of the part LF played in betraying Ned? Sansa was there, she must have known- you could understand her keeping it quiet since they sort of need him. Did Davos not know? None of the Northern lords? We know Jon knows nothing.

Just struck me as odd: LF chilling in a room full of men who should despise him.

More importantly, he's sitting in a room full of men whose lives he saved..

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

This is a good point, were none of the crowd (many of whom would have loved Ned) in Winterfell aware of the part LF played in betraying Ned? Sansa was there, she must have known- you could understand her keeping it quiet since they sort of need him. Did Davos not know? None of the Northern lords? We know Jon knows nothing.

Just struck me as odd: LF chilling in a room full of men who should despise him.

I don't think Sansa knew. She would have assumed the Lannisters had him imprisoned and she knows it was Joffrey who had him executed. She was told he'd be spared and would 'take the black'.

Davos wouldn't have a clue. He's had no interaction with Littlefinger afaik.

duffman13

DeadHand wrote: »

And yet...

Ned Stark was a key figure in the rebellion that got Dany's family butchered. She has as much love for the Starks as she had for the Baratheons and has for what's left of the Lannisters. She took in Tyrion but Tyrion, as a disowned outsider of unique talent, is an exceptional case. Jon has been an outsider too but, with Sansa by his side, is much closer to the old regime- he owes his Kingship in the North in a large part to the love for the Starks that is still strong there. The North in general will not tolerate being ruled over by another Targ, considering what Aerys did to the beloved Starks and the blood they spilled in avenging them.

Nor is Dany likely to tolerate a King in the North. Hard to see Dany granting Jon independence as she has promised for the Iron Islands- the North is a much larger, more important chunk of the seven kingdoms she sees as hers than the Iron Islands and the Northerners have been notoriously rebellious in recent history rising against both Aerys and Joffrey.

Cersei is the common enemy as it stands... Whether Jon marches South (what he may be manipulated into/forced to do) or consolidates the North against the White Walkers (what he wants to do) has much to do with what happens at the Wall and which move Littlefinger makes next.

Jon and Dany could well come into conflict before realising they are related. Having said that, Tyrion may be key in brokering some kind of deal between them- he knows and likes Jon. Some Davos vs. Tyrion diplomatic arm wrestling would make for juicy television. Cersei mightn't be an enemy of the magnitude to unite Stark and Targ though the WWs should be.

Interesting too to see how the Imp advises Dany to approach Littlefinger- Tyrion is clever enough never to trust LF but he does not hate him yet: so far as I recall LF is one of the few Kingslanding players who never wronged him... To Tyrion's knowledge. If the truth about Joffrey's death comes to light that could change. And Baelish has conspired with Olleanna Tyrell before who now finds herself firmly on the Dragon's side. As ever, LF has a foot in all camps.

Having said all that, Varys more than anyone understands exactly what LF is so... Any counsel Dany T gets on LF from her advisors will likely involve heads and pikes.

I think much was made of Jons relationship with Tyrion early in the first book and also in the TV show. Tyrion will be key in bringing Dany and Jon together, Jon and Tyrion related well over being outsiders in there respective families.

I'm sure Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei and Varys are the only people alive who would be aware of what LF did to Ned. I think Baelish will go in a similar manner to Ned, betrayed by Jon or Sansa thinking he has them onside. It would be his perfect death!

CMOTDibbler

From the non book readers thread

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

I smelled total bull****, when the producers and Kit Harington were lying last year. Plus, book readers have been predicting it for years. However...


Not really a spoiler, but, If he doesn't get resurrected in the books, I'll be surprised, but very happy. Though, why would Benioff and Weiss resurrect a character that is staying dead in the books? "You know nothing, Jon Snow" t-shirt sales?

Because (f)Aegon is in the books. He may be TPTWP and not Jon Snow.

Frank O. Pinion

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Because (f)Aegon is in the books. He may be TPTWP and not Jon Snow.

I agree, that's possible. It's why I think the book's dynamic, going towards the "endgame", is more interesting than the TV series'.