Appealing certain charges

richy

Is it possible to appeal certain charges that you pleaded guilty to. For example, if you were given the probation act for one offence and convicted of another offence (motoring for example), can you appeal just the motoring offence?

Will the appealing court take the other charge (probation act one) into consideration or will they not know about this?

Pro Hoc Vice

richy wrote: »

Is it possible to appeal certain charges that you pleaded guilty to. For example, if you were given the probation act for one offence and convicted of another offence (motoring for example), can you appeal just the motoring offence?

Will the appealing court take the other charge (probation act one) into consideration or will they not know about this?

I assume you mean in the DC. If so yes you can appeal the conviction in one case and accept the finding in the other. The Circuit Court will only deal with the appeal in the matter then in front of it.

richy

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I assume you mean in the DC. If so yes you can appeal the conviction in one case and accept the finding in the other. The Circuit Court will only deal with the appeal in the matter then in front of it.

Thanks for the reply Pro Hoc.

Marcusm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I assume you mean in the DC. If so yes you can appeal the conviction in one case and accept the finding in the other. The Circuit Court will only deal with the appeal in the matter then in front of it.

If he plead guilty to them, what standing would he have to have the cases reopened?

richy

Marcusm wrote: »

If he plead guilty to them, what standing would he have to have the cases reopened?

Based on harshness of outcome maybe?

Kristopherus

richy wrote: »

Based on harshness of outcome maybe?

That may be in your opinion. Would you care to give any details?

Pro Hoc Vice

Marcusm wrote: »

If he plead guilty to them, what standing would he have to have the cases reopened?

A person can appeal either conviction or severity of the sentence or in fact both. As appeal to CC is a complete rehearing it is possible to appeal conviction even when a person has pleaded guilty in the District Court.

Pro Hoc Vice

Kristopherus wrote: »

That may be in your opinion. Would you care to give any details?

The law allows an appeal from the District Court on severity only if the appellant wishes it's not my opinion it is the law.

richy

Kristopherus wrote: »

That may be in your opinion. Would you care to give any details?

Well I am not a lawyer or have no legal training, I just feel that it is a bit harsh to convict someone on having a defective brake light without any time given to get it fixed.

Pro Hoc Vice

richy wrote: »

Well I am not a lawyer or have no legal training, I just feel that it is a bit harsh to convict someone on having a defective brake light without any time given to get it fixed.

But what is the legal basis the person either had defective brake light or not and was either in a public pace or not.

Paulw

richy wrote: »

I just feel that it is a bit harsh to convict someone on having a defective brake light without any time given to get it fixed.

Was there no time between it being defective and you being stopped? :eek: It broke the day you were stopped?

richy

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

But what is the legal basis the person either had defective brake light or not and was either in a public pace or not.

I was curious as to whether the circuit court would throw it out on appeal seeing as it was a once off etc.

richy

Paulw wrote: »

Was there no time between it being defective and you being stopped? :eek: It broke the day you were stopped?

I dont know when it was defective originally but it would have likely been less than a week. I found out the reason that it was defective is because the brake light switch is in the passenger seat foot well (peugeot 206) and the passengers feet had knocked it, making it faulty. Literally fixed it in one minute in the mechanics.

Pro Hoc Vice

richy wrote: »

I was curious as to whether the circuit court would throw it out on appeal seeing as it was a once off etc.

No one except a solicitor who acts in the circuit could give any idea. Also remember when appealing it's open to circuit court to convict and then increase penalty.

Paulw

richy wrote: »

I was curious as to whether the circuit court would throw it out on appeal seeing as it was a once off etc.

The law doesn't seem to have a "once off" clause, not that I have seen. Also, you said that pleaded guilty. You either broke the law, or you didn't. And the penalty for that is clear. You accepted guilt and then suffered the consequences.

Marcusm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

A person can appeal either conviction or severity of the sentence or in fact both. As appeal to CC is a complete rehearing it is possible to appeal conviction even when a person has pleaded guilty in the District Court.

Thanks for that, it is counter intuitive but I see that it is part of the DC rules. It seems to leave matters open to abuse of process. I wonder, in the current circumstances where the OP (per his cross post in Motirs) got the benefit of the Probabltion Act on a related possession of cannabis charge at the same time as pleading guilty to the broken taillight might need to consult a solicitor before proceeding with his appeal. I'm unsure whether a Probation Act dismissal is without leave to reintroduce the charge which in the Circuit Criminal Court would presumably carry a potentially higher tariff.

Pro Hoc Vice

Marcusm wrote: »

Thanks for that, it is counter intuitive but I see that it is part of the DC rules. It seems to leave matters open to abuse of process. I wonder, in the current circumstances where the OP (per his cross post in Motirs) got the benefit of the Probabltion Act on a related possession of cannabis charge at the same time as pleading guilty to the broken taillight might need to consult a solicitor before proceeding with his appeal. I'm unsure whether a Probation Act dismissal is without leave to reintroduce the charge which in the Circuit Criminal Court would presumably carry a potentially higher tariff.

On appeal most circuits Radley increase penalty, also on appeal the maximum penalty stays at the level in the DC. Once a person does not appeal any of the convictions then there is no way to get that case before acC.

richy

Hi there,

I am wondering if there is a cost to have a consultation with a solicitor/barrister to go over my case and to see if I should bring it to the appeals court. It is about two motoring convictions.

davo10

richy wrote: »

Hi there,

I am wondering if there is a cost to have a consultation with a solicitor/barrister to go over my case and to see if I should bring it to the appeals court. It is about two motoring convictions.

Why would there not be a cost? You are getting legal advice.

richy

davo10 wrote: »

Why would there not be a cost? You are getting legal advice.

Is there a cost for a quote off a builder? Me - "Hey builder can you build this successfully" Builder "Yes, now thats 200 quid for that answer"

Not so ridiculous.

brian_t

richy wrote: »

Is there a cost for a quote off a builder? Me - "Hey builder can you build this successfully" Builder "Yes, now thats 200 quid for that answer"

Not so ridiculous.

I've always understood that getting a "quote off a builder" meant something a bit different.

geeky

I've heard of free, no-obligation chats in the legal services sector prior to instructing a solicitor. You'd need to ask the solicitor.

If you want substantive advice - ie, to have the solicitor look at your case in real detail - you have to expect to pay him/her for that work.

richy

As the title says. Who would be best? Or a couple of people who would be good? Obviously, I know Frankie Buttimer is popular in general but would he be good for a RTA offence too?

aujopimur

PM sent.

richy

I heard of a solicitor recently that when appealing a conviction for a statutory offence (RTA) the guard must turn up and must have the relevant legislation on them to show the charge brought against you and that they quite often dont have this.

Anyone have any experience of this? Does this happen much?

Little CuChulainn

Solicitors started pulling that nonsense quite frequently in the district courts so now the legislation is generally handed in at the start of each court by a sergeant.

richy

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Solicitors started pulling that nonsense quite frequently in the district courts so now the legislation is generally handed in at the start of each court by a sergeant.

Cheers for the reply CuChulainn. It was a while since she had been in court over this offence she said.

What are the chances of a guard not turning up over a minor road traffic offence appeal. I presume very slim?

Little CuChulainn

richy wrote: »

Cheers for the reply CuChulainn. It was a while since she had been in court over this offence she said.

What are the chances of a guard not turning up over a minor road traffic offence appeal. I presume very slim?

Depends on where it is but in many areas a sergeant will show up for the first appearance.

Pat Mustard

richy wrote: »

What are the chances of a guard not turning up over a minor road traffic offence appeal. I presume very slim?

This is not a rare occurrence by any means.

If the Garda can't make it to court and if he notifies the State Solicitor in time, the State Solicitor is likely to make contact to advise that he will apply to adjourn the matter to another date.

richy

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Depends on where it is but in many areas a sergeant will show up for the first appearance.

If it was in Cork City. If it is an appeal is there more than one appearance?

Pat Mustard wrote: »

This is not a rare occurrence by any means.

If the Garda can't make it to court and if he notifies the State Solicitor in time, the State Solicitor is likely to make contact to advise that he will apply to adjourn the matter to another date.

So then they will re-arrange it for a different time? Any input on the bringing the relevant legislation to court with you matter?

richy

What is the situation with this if doing it yourself with the aim of a solicitor representing you at the actual hearing.

I know you fill out the form and hand it in and then you get a date to appear in court to apply for the appeal.

Is this date when you are applying for an appeal only for people who are applying for appeals?

Is it formal like a court sitting ie wear a suit?

If you are applying for an appeal yourself, how much talking do you have to do. What questions are asked of you etc?

coylemj

Were you convicted of something in the District Court and now you want to lodge an appeal? The fact that you have to ask those questions means that you seriously need a solicitor, otherwise there is a risk that if you do a solo run, you will totally fcuk up in the Circuit Court where the judge can increase the penalty (up to the max.) you got in the DC.

There is a saying in the legal profession and most people who are involved in the courts would agree with it as they have seen countless amateur and clueless people attempting to be a lawyer, getting the judge's back up and suffering the consequences: 'The person who represents himself has a fool for a client.'

coylemj

Do judges not have to take 'judicial notice' of existing legislation? Since when do the Gardai have to bring copies of acts of the Oireachtas with them into court?

Little CuChulainn

coylemj wrote: »

Do judges not have to take 'judicial notice' of existing legislation? Since when do the Gardai have to bring copies of acts of the Oireachtas with them into court?

It's the regulations and bye laws that are handed in I believe.

hullaballoo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's the regulations and bye laws that are handed in I believe.

Yes, it's mostly in relation to identifying the applicable speed limit for a given road in speeding cases.

IIRC, the OP here was done for a "bust tail light" and is appealing that as he was also convicted on a more serious charge. I think the implication was that he accidentally pleaded to the lesser charge as well as the more serious one and only upon reflection did he realise that the lesser charge was nothing more than a device.

richy

coylemj wrote: »

Were you convicted of something in the District Court and now you want to lodge an appeal? The fact that you have to ask those questions means that you seriously need a solicitor, otherwise there is a risk that if you do a solo run, you will totally fcuk up in the Circuit Court where the judge can increase the penalty (up to the max.) you got in the DC.

There is a saying in the legal profession and most people who are involved in the courts would agree with it as they have seen countless amateur and clueless people attempting to be a lawyer, getting the judge's back up and suffering the consequences: 'The person who represents himself has a fool for a client.'

Ya convicted in the DC. 2 solicitors I rang both said to fix recognaise myself and call them for the court date.

The first solicitor I called seemed the least interested but said she would fill out the forms etc and it would cost a 100 euro plus the appearance fees but she seemed the least interested in the case.

Would have no problem paying the 100 to get someone to put in the appeal as I dont want to have to appear in court again until I have to but the solicitor I want said she isnt available over the next couple of days (in which it needs to be done).

Would it be seen as very unprofessional for me to apply for the appeal myself, even though I will have a lawyer for the actual appeal?

Pro Hoc Vice

richy wrote: »

Ya convicted in the DC. 2 solicitors I rang both said to fix recognaise myself and call them for the court date.

The first solicitor I called seemed the least interested but said she would fill out the forms etc and it would cost a 100 euro plus the appearance fees but she seemed the least interested in the case.

Would have no problem paying the 100 to get someone to put in the appeal as I dont want to have to appear in court again until I have to but the solicitor I want said she isnt available over the next couple of days (in which it needs to be done).

Would it be seen as very unprofessional for me to apply for the appeal myself, even though I will have a lawyer for the actual appeal?

When did you get convicted?

richy

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

When did you get convicted?

The 20th. So I need to do it tomorrow realistically.

richy

hullaballoo wrote: »

Yes, it's mostly in relation to identifying the applicable speed limit for a given road in speeding cases.

IIRC, the OP here was done for a "bust tail light" and is appealing that as he was also convicted on a more serious charge. I think the implication was that he accidentally pleaded to the lesser charge as well as the more serious one and only upon reflection did he realise that the lesser charge was nothing more than a device.

Yes. 2 broken tail lights. Well I didnt acidentally plead guilty. I just didnt realise how much it would affect insurance. What do you mean by nothing more than a device?

From what you are saying, the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicle) Regulations, 1963 wouldnt need to be handed in as they arent by-laws?

coylemj

hullaballoo wrote: »

IIRC, the OP here was done for a "bust tail light" and is appealing that as he was also convicted on a more serious charge. I think the implication was that he accidentally pleaded to the lesser charge as well as the more serious one and only upon reflection did he realise that the lesser charge was nothing more than a device.

He was not convicted for the more serious offence. The OP currently has three threads open on this case.

He was pulled over by the cops for two busted brake lights and somehow it came to light that he had some cannabis on him so he was charged with possession of drugs and two broken lights........

richy wrote: »

I got a solicitor and I pleaded guilty. The judge gave benefit of probation act in court which means that I have no conviction recorded for the drugs offence but I did plead guilty.

He did convict me of the two charges for the brake lights.

OP has subsequently discovered that those two RTA convictions have serious implications for his motor insurance so he is considering an appeal - on what grounds I do not know given that he pleaded guilty. It's discussed in detail in this thread over in Motors, the OP quote above is post #26 ....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057613473

richy

coylemj wrote: »

He was not convicted for the more serious offence. The OP currently has three threads open on this case.

He was pulled over by the cops for two busted brake lights and somehow it came to light that he had some cannabis on him so he was charged with possession of drugs and two broken lights........



OP has subsequently discovered that those two RTA convictions have serious implications for his motor insurance so he is considering an appeal - on what grounds I do not know given that he pleaded guilty. It's discussed in detail in this thread over in Motors, the OP quote above is post #26 ....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057613473

I have different threads because I feel like they are all on different topics although they all come under the umbrella of the first thread.

Really appealing hoping that the guard does not show up/challenge getting two convictions for the offense rather than one/plea for a donation to poor box rather than a conviction.

I know that people who get convicted for cannabis possession (and pled guilty) who are convicted usually get the probation act on appeal.

It seems to me that they have pled guilty and have not any new evidence against the charge but are applying for something else instead of the conviction which is another hope.

All unlikely I know but with the increase insurance cost for me and my fathers commercial vehicle (500 for me, fathers increase unknown atm) its probably worth it.

Little CuChulainn

richy wrote: »

I have different threads because I feel like they are all on different topics although they all come under the umbrella of the first thread.

Really appealing hoping that the guard does not show up/challenge getting two convictions for the offense rather than one/plea for a donation to poor box rather than a conviction.

I know that people who get convicted for cannabis possession (and pled guilty) who are convicted usually get the probation act on appeal.

It seems to me that they have pled guilty and have not any new evidence against the charge but are applying for something else instead of the conviction which is another hope.

All unlikely I know but with the increase insurance cost for me and my fathers commercial vehicle (500 for me, fathers increase unknown atm) its probably worth it.

you understand that the penalty can go up as well as down?

richy

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

you understand that the penalty can go up as well as down?

Ya I know it can but it is also rare. It is worth for the insurance costs over the next 5 years.

MarkAnthony

Why is it that people who are doing something else wrong (e.g. cannabis) always seem to have something else wrong? I thought cannabis was meant to make you all relaxed and happy so surely a quick smoke and some car maintenance wouldn't go amiss?

Please keep us updated on the appeal OP I have a feeling it could be an interesting one!

I take it you're not hiring one of those useless legal professional yokes?

richy

Hello,

I am wondering if you plead guilty in the district court and you want to appeal the conviction can you have a whole rehearing as if you never plead guilty in the first place.

From what I have found online, Order 101, Rule 4 of the District Court Rules allows for an appeal regardless of your plea.

Does this mean you essentially have a second chance to go through the case again and argue your case about why you are not guilty.

Thank you

Marcusm

I count this as the 10th thread on the same topic; it would be easier for boardsies to add this to one of the earlier threads to follow the point.

richy

Marcusm wrote: »

I count this as the 10th thread on the same topic; it would be easier for boardsies to add this to one of the earlier threads to follow the point.

It is a fair enough point but they are all different questions. The reason I created a new thread is because it is a different question to what was asked in other questions. With a direct title as well I am probably more likely to get a response from someone who knows the answer to this particular question as they may not check the other threads.

If mods want to merge thats fair enough.

L1011

richy wrote: »

It is a fair enough point but they are all different questions. The reason I created a new thread is because it is a different question to what was asked in other questions. With a direct title as well I am probably more likely to get a response from someone who knows the answer to this particular question as they may not check the other threads.

If mods want to merge thats fair enough.

Its pretty much precisely the same question you asked before, not a different question and not going to get different posters or a different reply.

4ensic15

richy wrote: »

Hello,

I am wondering if you plead guilty in the district court and you want to appeal the conviction can you have a whole rehearing as if you never plead guilty in the first place.

From what I have found online, Order 101, Rule 4 of the District Court Rules allows for an appeal regardless of your plea.

Does this mean you essentially have a second chance to go through the case again and argue your case about why you are not guilty.

Thank you

Yes. It is not unknown as a tactic to ask the prosecution to drop some charges for a guilty plea, the appeal on the guilty plea charges after.

crusier

richy wrote:

From what I have found online, Order 101, Rule 4 of the District Court Rules allows for an appeal regardless of your plea.

richy wrote:

I am wondering if you plead guilty in the district court and you want to appeal the conviction can you have a whole rehearing as if you never plead guilty in the first place.

richy wrote:

Does this mean you essentially have a second chance to go through the case again and argue your case about why you are not guilty.

richy wrote:

Thank you

Yes

hullaballoo

Threads merged.