Making hurling better

Pixel Eater

Okay hurling is a great sport; fast, action packed and exciting but I've been wondering recently if it could be improved with a few minor alterations.
The modern game is played almost entirely in the air and games usually have very high point totals. Players are able to propel the sliotar over a massive portion of the pitch with the resulting slew of points and glut of wides.
Two causes of this is the wide bás on modern hurls and the relative lightness of the sliotar. Most bás these days are huge, far larger than they were even 12 or 15 years ago. In fact most are wider than the maximum stipulated in the rules.
The sliotar is lighter then most similar balls from other sports. The average weight of a sliotar is appox. 115g compared to a baseball (145g), cricket (160g) or even hockey (160g).

So thinner hurl and heavier ball to stimulate more ground based action, more build-up play and generally keep more activity on the pitch. Just my thoughts, what do people think?

Davys Fits

I think the handpass is an 'easy option' for a hurler. Im convinced that reducing the number of consecutive handpasses to 2 or even 1 would promote more stick work either on the ground or in the air. It would also make the defensive system less effective which might be a good thing. Football has been destroyed by hand passing and its accepted now as part of the game. Please dont let the same happen to hurling.

Water John

Do most of them qualify as handpasses any way, look more like throws most of the time.
Hope teams don't start using sweeper and extra back the same as football.

tomwaterford

Pixel Eater wrote: »

So thinner hurl and heavier ball to stimulate more ground based action, more build-up play and generally keep more activity on the pitch. Just my thoughts, what do people think?

Think this will slow the game down and cause a development of more rucks/mauls type hurling

Like a kind of rugby cross hurling mess of a game...and who wants that

g6fdyotp5nj2l7

It ain't broke don't fix it

Dirty Dingus McGee

I would say the ball is a little light.Hurls are better quality and players are stronger now and so scoring from distance is no great skill anymore.

It's far too easy to score scoring from outside the 45 should be reasonably difficult whereas anything from midfield in is piss easy these days.

I think the sliothar should be made a little heavier as I think it would increase the skill level in the game, scoring should be the most difficult skill in any sport however in hurling it isn't the most difficult thing to do and there isn't enough of a premium for a player being able to score.

Deskjockey

Can we bring back players wearing flat caps, subs and managers chewing fags, terriers on pitches, fans wearing furry hats, the bishop throwing in the ball, full backs swinging wildly knocking lumps out of full forwards...

Anything I missed?

Water John

Goalkeepers getting buried.

Xenophile

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Okay hurling is a great sport; fast, action packed and exciting but I've been wondering recently if it could be improved with a few minor alterations.

The sliotar is lighter then most similar balls from other sports. The average weight of a sliotar is appox. 115g compared to a baseball (145g), cricket (160g) or even hockey (160g).

No improvement needed, catching a ball in the air with both ball and man going at a tremendous speed is a great skill.

A heavier ball could result in more injuries.

The team who have the most wides normally end up on the losing side. Now that's a skill that could be improved.

The All Ireland Final only involving two counties is one of the most viewed programmes in the whole calendar year !

Water John

It is one of the great sports in the world, without a doubt. I think the OP in fairness was just looking for tweaks to make it better.
Fierce pressure now a half back line. Teams now thinking of adding the extra defender there. That will disimprove the spectacle IMO. The very long puck outs cause much of this.

Pixel Eater

Davys Fits wrote: »

I think the handpass is an 'easy option' for a hurler. Im convinced that reducing the number of consecutive handpasses to 2 or even 1 would promote more stick work either on the ground or in the air. It would also make the defensive system less effective which might be a good thing. Football has been destroyed by hand passing and its accepted now as part of the game. Please dont let the same happen to hurling.

Don't think that handpassing will have that detrimental effect; hurling and football are very different sports. At the end of the day hurling uses a stick to move the (quite small) ball as opposed to just hand and feet.

Pixel Eater

tomwaterford wrote: »

Think this will slow the game down and cause a development of more rucks/mauls type hurling

Like a kind of rugby cross hurling mess of a game...and who wants that

Well I wouldn't envisage a complete departure away from the current game. A slightly heavier ball may result in a little more of some maul like action but some of that can be quite exciting in it's own right, and it's no where near like the static, melees you see in rugby sometimes.

Pixel Eater

Xenophile wrote: »

No improvement needed, catching a ball in the air with both ball and man going at a tremendous speed is a great skill.

A heavier ball could result in more injuries.

The team who have the most wides normally end up on the losing side. Now that's a skill that could be improved.

The All Ireland Final only involving two counties is one of the most viewed programmes in the whole calendar year !

I agree it's a great skill but make the ball only slightly heavier so wouldn't cause any injuries. All these players taking potshots form the halfway line that inevitably go miles wide: just more time the ball is out of play. If it dropped short and cause a bit of tension in the opponents box...

HatchetMan7

Sideline cut = 2 points and maybe your 1st goal = 3 points, your 2nd goal = 4 points, third goal = 5 points and so on. If that doesn't promote attacking play i don't know what would.

Bonniedog

Hurling is an infinitely superior game to what it was even 30 years ago. Some of it has to do with better sticks, a lighter ball, and fitness. Skill levels are also higher. Just look at some of the games from the 70s they show and they were finals!

I remember league games that would make junior B club matches now seem like classics. Of course there were great players and given modern conditions they would no doubt thrive, but a lot of it was barely watchable. Same applies to football of course.

Curiously the only team sport I think was more enjoyable watching in the 70s than now was soccer!

Dyr

Water John wrote: »

Goalkeepers getting buried.

God be with the days when keepers knew that if stopping the sliotar didn't kill them the full forward that was coming behind it would.

nice_guy80

Just implement the feckin rules!!

Handpasses have to have clear daylight. Most are now illegal. I saw a lad in a club game last Sunday get away with at least 5 of them

This craic of 'taking on yer man' is just charging by another name. If a player runs straight into another player then he deserves to be penalised.

Stoner

The lighter ball was a health and safety change no ?
If it was as heavy as a cricket ball it would do serious damage

Pixel Eater

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Just implement the feckin rules!!

Handpasses have to have clear daylight. Most are now illegal. I saw a lad in a club game last Sunday get away with at least 5 of them

This craic of 'taking on yer man' is just charging by another name. If a player runs straight into another player then he deserves to be penalised.

Also include the implication of the proper bas size while they're at it.

Stoner wrote: »

The lighter ball was a health and safety change no ?
If it was as heavy as a cricket ball it would do serious damage

Well (according to Wiki anyhow) the current sliotar replaced the poorer quality and inconsistent one; so not so much health and safety but to improve the game: exactly what I propose.
A cricket ball is both significantly heavier and harder than a sliotar, and it's the latter trait that makes them so lethal. Just make the sliotar a bit heavier but not near as weighty as a cricket ball.

Xenophile

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Okay hurling is a great sport; fast, action packed and exciting but I've been wondering recently if it could be improved with a few minor alterations.
The modern game is played almost entirely in the air and games usually have very high point totals. Players are able to propel the sliotar over a massive portion of the pitch with the resulting slew of points and glut of wides.
Two causes of this is the wide bás on modern hurls and the relative lightness of the sliotar. Most bás these days are huge, far larger than they were even 12 or 15 years ago. In fact most are wider than the maximum stipulated in the rules.
The sliotar is lighter then most similar balls from other sports. The average weight of a sliotar is appox. 115g compared to a baseball (145g), cricket (160g) or even hockey (160g).

So thinner hurl and heavier ball to stimulate more ground based action, more build-up play and generally keep more activity on the pitch. Just my thoughts, what do people think?

You deserve to be complemented on your bringing issues you feel strongly about into the public arena. However, it is obvious that most people are happy with the game as it stands.

Your courage in speaking your mind is to be commended.

Pixel Eater

Xenophile wrote: »

You deserve to be complemented on your bringing issues you feel strongly about into the public arena. However, it is obvious that most people are happy with the game as it stands.

Your courage in speaking your mind is to be commended.

Are they though? There has been a lot of debate recently on the current state of the game and there has been undoubtedly a lot of poor matches recently. Coupled with the fact that there has been some poorly attended games in recent years maybe hurling needs to look at something.

I'm not talking about a major overhaul of the rules that would alter it utterly; just a few tweaks that would improve it.

What are those?

Don't think any changes are needed with regards to new rules etc. but I do believe that a restructuring of the provincial championships (both hurling and football) are necessary and this will lead to better games id imagine i.e no Kilkenny vs Offaly in leinster hurling etc.

Rasputin11

The refs need to clamp down on the pulling and dragging on the player in possession, which is rampant in the game at present.

http://www.sportsfile.com/id/1134540/

http://www.sportsfile.com/id/1136286/

deadybai

The only problem I see with hurling is the lack of competive teams playing it. There's literally only 3 teams out of 32 that have quality players and That's Kilkenny, Tipp and Galway . The likes of Clare and Waterford just have very good systems to make up for their lack of quality individuals

I hate the way Waterford and Clare play the game but that's only two teams in the entire country .

I was at a junior b game in Kilkenny a while ago and it was one of the best games of hurling I've seen for excitement.

Pixel Eater

What are those? wrote: »

Don't think any changes are needed with regards to new rules etc. but I do believe that a restructuring of the provincial championships (both hurling and football) are necessary and this will lead to better games id imagine i.e no Kilkenny vs Offaly in leinster hurling etc.

deadybai wrote: »

The only problem I see with hurling is the lack of competive teams playing it. There's literally only 3 teams out of 32 that have quality players and That's Kilkenny, Tipp and Galway . The likes of Clare and Waterford just have very good systems to make up for their lack of quality individuals

I hate the way Waterford and Clare play the game but that's only two teams in the entire country .

I was at a junior b game in Kilkenny a while ago and it was one of the best games of hurling I've seen for excitement.

Agreed the Championship structures need to be looked at and it's quite uncompetitive, but I think the current form of hurling actually exacerbates the gulf between teams: it must be demoralising to a back from a weaker county to see an opponent take a puck from their own half and see the sliotar sail over between the posts with no defense possible.

Pixel Eater

Rasputin11 wrote: »

The refs need to clamp down on the pulling and dragging on the player in possession, which is rampant in the game at present.

http://www.sportsfile.com/id/1134540/

http://www.sportsfile.com/id/1136286/

Hnadpasses, pulling, steps, bas size; the GAA are pretty lax in enforcing rules in general.

Bonniedog

In fairness refs have been enforcing stuff that people were complaining about a few years ago. For example, you rarely now see a player charging with his stick held at opponent's throat level.

Unfortunately what has replaced that is the sort of thing you see in football where players are grabbing lads around the neck or just pushing their hands into throat. Not only is that something that is highly restrictive - which is why it is taught in martial arts self defence! - but is also potentially dangerous. Happened quite a lot in the Tipp/Limerick game with few being pulled up over it, as it is not as obvious as in football where it tends to be executed on players getting away from an opponent. Any contact with throat should be at least a free.

Xenophile

Xenophile wrote: »

A heavier ball could result in more injuries.

Agree completely.

I never got to play being a City boy and the lack of promotion that came with it(so was never hit with one)

But I have a Sliothar and just last night I was holding it and thinking its amazing more players don't get seriously injured being hit with it as it is(a football can hurt a fair bit and that's way softer and lower velocity).

Cant even imagine what would happen with a heavier ball being introduced because a few people want less action and distance.

Pixel Eater

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Agree completely.

I never got to play being a City boy and the lack of promotion that came with it(so was never hit with one)

But I have a Sliothar and just last night I was holding it and thinking its amazing more players don't get seriously injured being hit with it as it is(a football can hurt a fair bit and that's way softer and lower velocity).

Cant even imagine what would happen with a heavier ball being introduced because a few people want less action and distance.

Games like hockey, lacrosse and baseball seem to manage with a heavier ball.

Dyr

You see lads spend as much time holding the other teams hurls as they do their own

Would like to see that penalised more but theres only one ref on the pitch

Water John

Has been suggested before that hurling should have two refs. If somebody hits the ball 80 metres, where is the the ref?
May be apply it at intercounty level.

randd1

If you make the sliothar heavier, you suit the defender or massed defence as the ball won't travel as far. Also makes scoring harder, why would people want that?

2 points for a sideline is a no-go. Why not 2 points for a shot from 90 plus yards then? Or a free from near the sideline. Just as skillful.

Implement a 10 minute sin-bin for helmet dragging, two yellow cards, deliberately pulling down a man inside the 21. Would cut down on the pulling and dragging a lot for me as I think refs are loathe to give cards that will lead to sending offs for innocuous enough little things. A less severe punishment would be an out for refs to really tackle the niggly stuff.

Also scrap the provincials completely, they are simply a hindrance to hurling at this stage, a 14 team league would mean all the top sides playing each other regularly with room to experiment and improve your side. The provincial championships could be a league within a league if they were to be kept.

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Games like hockey, lacrosse and baseball seem to manage with a heavier ball.

In Ice Hockey they wear padding plus the puck only leaves the ground in a shooting instance (and the goalie is padded)Lacrosse, I wont comment on as I never watched it and Baseball is just a bad example as the batter isn't hitting the ball with players in his comfort zone under opposition.
Baseball is also a different game, more akin to Cricket than the aforementioned.

Anyway that aside the only issue with the GAA package is that they try to promote inter county and club to the masses and players/fans are given 2/3 meaningful games per year.

Time to give people more, major titles in all sports are run on a league basis(with some elements of KO) not this 2/3 games per year for 90% of participants... Mind boggling.

Dirty Dingus McGee

randd1 wrote: »

If you make the sliothar heavier, you suit the defender or massed defence as the ball won't travel as far. Also makes scoring harder, why would people want that?

2 points for a sideline is a no-go. Why not 2 points for a shot from 90 plus yards then? Or a free from near the sideline. Just as skillful.

Implement a 10 minute sin-bin for helmet dragging, two yellow cards, deliberately pulling down a man inside the 21. Would cut down on the pulling and dragging a lot for me as I think refs are loathe to give cards that will lead to sending offs for innocuous enough little things. A less severe punishment would be an out for refs to really tackle the niggly stuff.

Also scrap the provincials completely, they are simply a hindrance to hurling at this stage, a 14 team league would mean all the top sides playing each other regularly with room to experiment and improve your side. The provincial championships could be a league within a league if they were to be kept.

High scoring is not always an indication of a good match sometimes excessive scoring takes away from the entertainment and scores aren't actually as exciting as they should be because there can be so many.Nothing better than watching a 1-16 to 2-15 type of hurling match where each score is hard fought and really vital and you feel like it could be difficult to come back from a big deficit.

If scoring is the main thing people want from a game then everyone in the world would only watch basketball and cricket.

Mint Aero

Genuinely felt embarrassed watching hurling while living abroad many moons ago. My foreign colleagues were confused by the mess on screen. It really looks unprofessional, unskilled and just plain silly when viewed from a foreign context.

HatchetMan7

Mint Aero wrote: »

Genuinely felt embarrassed watching hurling while living abroad many moons ago. My foreign colleagues were confused by the mess on screen. It really looks unprofessional, unskilled and just plain silly when viewed from a foreign context.

Every sport looks ridiculous if you've never seen or heard of it before as you have no idea of the rules. Imagine looking at American Football or Rugby for the first time in your life, id say you'd be rolling around on the ground laughing at such stupidness.

Seth Brundle

Mint Aero wrote: »

Genuinely felt embarrassed watching hurling while living abroad many moons ago. My foreign colleagues were confused by the mess on screen. It really looks unprofessional, unskilled and just plain silly when viewed from a foreign context.

The reaction from UK people when hurling was first shown on Sky would suggest otherwise!

Pixel Eater

randd1 wrote: »

If you make the sliothar heavier, you suit the defender or massed defence as the ball won't travel as far. Also makes scoring harder, why would people want that?

But making it (slightly) harder to score is a good thing; then a score would be a real achievement and a pivotal moment. Teams are regularly racking up points totals in the in late 20s and into the 30s these days, it's too easy to score now IMO. Besides there would still be plenty of scores...

gilberto_eire wrote: »

In Ice Hockey they wear padding plus the puck only leaves the ground in a shooting instance (and the goalie is padded)Lacrosse, I wont comment on as I never watched it and Baseball is just a bad example as the batter isn't hitting the ball with players in his comfort zone under opposition.
Baseball is also a different game, more akin to Cricket than the aforementioned.

Anyway that aside the only issue with the GAA package is that they try to promote inter county and club to the masses and players/fans are given 2/3 meaningful games per year.

Time to give people more, major titles in all sports are run on a league basis(with some elements of KO) not this 2/3 games per year for 90% of participants... Mind boggling.

Well I was taking about field hockey actually. I know that baseball and cricket are quite different but they still involve hurling (as in throwing) a small small towards other players at a high velocity so it's still quite dangerous.

Agree on the absurdity having just 2/3 meaningful games a year.

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

High scoring is not always an indication of a good match sometimes excessive scoring takes away from the entertainment and scores aren't actually as exciting as they should be because there can be so many.Nothing better than watching a 1-16 to 2-15 type of hurling match where each score is hard fought and really vital and you feel like it could be difficult to come back from a big deficit.

If scoring is the main thing people want from a game then everyone in the world would only watch basketball and cricket.

Agree wholeheartedly; too many scores makes them become almost meaningless.

Pixel Eater

Mint Aero wrote: »

Genuinely felt embarrassed watching hurling while living abroad many moons ago. My foreign colleagues were confused by the mess on screen. It really looks unprofessional, unskilled and just plain silly when viewed from a foreign context.

A fine bit of culture cringe there. My experience from watching the All Ireland final in a busy pub is that tourists are fascinated by the spectacle and skill on show.

Bonniedog

Mint Aero wrote: »

Genuinely felt embarrassed watching hurling while living abroad many moons ago. My foreign colleagues were confused by the mess on screen. It really looks unprofessional, unskilled and just plain silly when viewed from a foreign context.

Lots of Irish people are embarrassed by Irish stuff. Has to do with post colonial inferiority.

If its any consolation, you are not alone

Bonniedog

HatchetMan7 wrote: »

Every sport looks ridiculous if you've never seen or heard of it before as you have no idea of the rules. Imagine looking at American Football or Rugby for the first time in your life, id say you'd be rolling around on the ground laughing at such stupidness.

Americans and other mature people don't give a flying fk what other people think of them. Only former slaves have that problem.

Warper

deadybai wrote: »

The only problem I see with hurling is the lack of competive teams playing it. There's literally only 3 teams out of 32 that have quality players and That's Kilkenny, Tipp and Galway . The likes of Clare and Waterford just have very good systems to make up for their lack of quality individuals

I hate the way Waterford and Clare play the game but that's only two teams in the entire country .

I was at a junior b game in Kilkenny a while ago and it was one of the best games of hurling I've seen for excitement.

Eh? Lack of quality individuals, ya right.

Pixel Eater

A reformed Championship should have some sort of league/round-robin component... So maybe a rugby type bonus point system?

Score 3 goals or more and get an extra point, lose by 3 or less and also get one.

g6fdyotp5nj2l7

Mint Aero wrote:

Genuinely felt embarrassed watching hurling while living abroad many moons ago. My foreign colleagues were confused by the mess on screen. It really looks unprofessional, unskilled and just plain silly when viewed from a foreign context.

If you think hurling is unskilled you've obviously never tried it.

Bonniedog

Sandra Salty Connection wrote: »

If you think hurling is unskilled you've obviously never tried it.

I wouldn't pay much attention to him. Not seen him post on GAA forum previously.

Bonniedog

Pixel Eater wrote: »

A reformed Championship should have some sort of league/round-robin component... So maybe a rugby type bonus point system?

Score 3 goals or more and get an extra point, lose by 3 or less and also get one.

Only consequence of that would be Kilkenny 11 - 34 Laois 0 - 7!

danganabu

Mint Aero wrote: »

Genuinely felt embarrassed watching hurling while living abroad many moons ago. My foreign colleagues were confused by the mess on screen. It really looks unprofessional, unskilled and just plain silly when viewed from a foreign context.

Ahh precious, did the bad foreigners ask you to show then how to play it and you made a tool out of yourself by any chance???

Rasputin11

danganabu wrote: »

Ahh precious, did the bad foreigners ask you to show then how to play it and you made a tool out of yourself by any chance???

Rugby man probably.

Hulk Hands

Make 65's indirect. Or make it a sideline cut from the 21 or corner. A near guaranteed point (at anything above u-16 these days) is a ridiculous result for a deflected wise ball. Some reward for the bravery of goalkeepers making saves, and defenders making block downs. Their "reward" for stopping an opposition score is an opposition score.

jeff bingham

I've noticed over the last few years if there's a ruck developing, the ref stops it throws it in along the ground but rarely does this stop the mess. It just continues for another while until someone gets it in their hand.

A solution i have thought about would be for the ref to throw the ball 10 yards into the air between 2 players.

Might stop these rucks continuing. Players have the option to pull in the air or attempt the catch

KK4SAM

Munster Hurling is akin to under twelves hurling. Eliminate rucks and mauling ,replace the throw in with alternate sideline cuts ?