Buses and the College Green Plaza -- what can make it work?

monument

What bus-priority measures would minimise the effects of the College Green Plaza on bus routes?

Public transport only on all of Dame Street? Bus lanes on the south quays? Changing of routes more than already suggested?

This is partly covered by another thread, but to build on that I want to start a fresh and focused discussion here.

cgcsb

Doubling the bus lane on the north and south quays between Grattan Bridge and O'Connell bridge would improve journey times enough to compensate for the planned Parliament st bottleneck. This could mean the CPOing of Arnotts and Fleet St multi story, both of which could be a really good thing for the city. One or both of them could be converted to coach parking for the multiple tour operators and/or secure bike parking facilities, the upper floors could even be converted into loft style apartments and sold on to recoup some of the CPO money.

Fantasy solution would include bus only on Dame st, new bus lane on Tara st and double bus lane on Nassau St. Also the Exchequer/South William/Clarendon/Drury st area ought to be bike only in my opinion with deliveries restricted to early morning hours.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Above solution would remove at least 4 car parks from the city centre. Probably not a runner once the business people get involved.

trellheim

You need to re-route a lot of stuff.

Deliveries MUST still get into town somehow

People MUST still get into the city centre , ie a short distance from O'Connell Bridge

Capel St /Grattan Bridge becomes a huge bottleneck, the huge distance required to make the turn onto parliament st as LX says will diminish the amount of buses that can fit on parliament st, this means to keep it moving you need a lot of green time north/south and this screws the quays up as they will be on red. A double bus lane wont help all that much !

stop

What about letting some buses use the Luas alignment from SSG to Harcourt?

Chris_5339762

What will make it work? Ban the taxis.

Luas + bus may very well work along here provided the provision of bus stops is sensible. Allow taxis to use it and they'll all pile in and block the whole lot up solid.

celtcia

There are a few options that might make it work if I post any links I'll probably get banned!
Not all of them but some of them are:

1. Only one bus lane in College Green Plaza and one on Suffolk St
2. 2 On College Green Plaza
3. A secret one I'm not telling.

All would most likely ideally need a small bus type.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/exhibition-road-kensington-the-30m-naked-street-stops-trying-to-mix-cars-and-people-7dj7rwn8c

MrAbyss

Pedestrianization. Problem solved.

Irish Steve

Reality check. You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, and the missing element in the Dublin City transport system is mass transit, and like it or not, that is NOT yet more buses, as the issues of capacity of the road system, dwell time and related issues can't be resolved by trying to push even more buses into a space and capacity limited area.

The missing link is a properly designed and structured metro underground system, which would have the capacity to carry the numbers without the problems that are unresolvable using buses as the prime mover. 1 train carries somewhere close to the same as 7 buses, and the uncomfortable reality is that there is no road based solution, and it's just been made even more pressing by the plans to remove all carbon based small vehicles from the roads by 2045.

This change will only make the problems worse, and the longer the relevant people try to pretend that there is a street level solution, the worse the problem will become.

celtcia

Irish Steve wrote: »

Reality check. You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, and the missing element in the Dublin City transport system is mass transit, and like it or not, that is NOT yet more buses, as the issues of capacity of the road system, dwell time and related issues can't be resolved by trying to push even more buses into a space and capacity limited area.

The missing link is a properly designed and structured metro underground system, which would have the capacity to carry the numbers without the problems that are unresolvable using buses as the prime mover. 1 train carries somewhere close to the same as 7 buses, and the uncomfortable reality is that there is no road based solution, and it's just been made even more pressing by the plans to remove all carbon based small vehicles from the roads by 2045.

This change will only make the problems worse, and the longer the relevant people try to pretend that there is a street level solution, the worse the problem will become.

If metro north had gone ahead application would have had a slightly better chance. But metro north was a glorified tram. Ideally the previous RPA would a deal with Dublin Bus regarding a recruitment management split and conditions. Never happened...

I would like ICE trains from Belfast under O'Connell St to cork. But the taxpayer will basically fund the profit of developers in Docklands for any dart underground or similar.

Some interesting designs for metro stations going around...

AlekSmart

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

What will make it work? Ban the taxis.

Luas + bus may very well work along here provided the provision of bus stops is sensible. Allow taxis to use it and they'll all pile in and block the whole lot up solid.

As long as Dublin's taxi service provision remains in it's currently unmanaged state then a total ban on their use of the College Green facility is inevitable.

With the Gardai now having ceased attempts to Police the 0700-1000 Taxi ban,the only feasible solution appears to be a Taxi Plate/Reg Plate ANPR solution which would impose a €200 Bus-Gate Toll on each Taxi.

This toll,rather than the traditional,and hugely problematic,fixed penalty or Court appearance,would be a far more realistic method of convincing the Taxi "industry" that sections of the Road Traffic Act's do actually apply to Taxi drivers.

Hand the management of the Bus-Gate (and perhaps Bus Lanes as well) over to the Emovis (E-Flow) who have vast and successful experience of ANPR based revenue collecting....https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/1021/1084796-m50-toll-fines/

Something HAS to be done...but then again,that translates in Irish to "Ah sure It'll be grand"

donvito99

I would restrict all movements to Nassau St - Dame St.

West to East would go via Suffolk St (a 'Trinity' stop just before turning off Dame St which allows for a southbound Green Line connection).

East to West buses would come via a contra flow bus lane on Nassau St, and turn right on to Grafton St, and left on to Dame St. Freeflow, zebra type pedestrian crossings to keep pedestrians moving and allows everybody to figure things out for themselves. A stop just after South Frederick St on Nassau St - 'Dawson' - allows for changing to the Green Line, north and southbound.

cgcsb

The bus connects redesign removes most buses from college green effectively solving the issue, no? We have the taxi ban already, all that's needed after that is actual enforcement

monument

Irish Steve wrote: »

Reality check. You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, and the missing element in the Dublin City transport system is mass transit, and like it or not, that is NOT yet more buses, as the issues of capacity of the road system, dwell time and related issues can't be resolved by trying to push even more buses into a space and capacity limited area.

The missing link is a properly designed and structured metro underground system, which would have the capacity to carry the numbers without the problems that are unresolvable using buses as the prime mover. 1 train carries somewhere close to the same as 7 buses, and the uncomfortable reality is that there is no road based solution, and it's just been made even more pressing by the plans to remove all carbon based small vehicles from the roads by 2045.

This change will only make the problems worse, and the longer the relevant people try to pretend that there is a street level solution, the worse the problem will become.

I’m a strong supporter of rail, but the problem with your theory is the example Amsterdam shows us — a city with very similar features as Dublin such as similar population and density, similar restrictive space in city centres, similar climate and weather etc.

Yet, in Amsterdam, the city’s investment in metro lines continues to be overshadowed by the success story that is cycling in Amsterdam. That’s not to say you don’t invest in rail — it’s to say you do both surface and rail, even where the largest gains to be had is in cycling.

Much like transferring space to cycling, to try to suggest Dublin City centre is finished transferring space and junction time to buses is just not dealing with reality.

celtcia

monument wrote: »

I’m a strong supporter of rail, but the problem with your theory is the example Amsterdam shows us — a city with very similar features as Dublin such as similar population and density, similar restrictive space in city centres, similar climate and weather etc.

Yet, in Amsterdam, the city’s investment in metro lines continues to be overshadowed by the success story that is cycling in Amsterdam. That’s not to say you don’t invest in rail — it’s to say you do both surface and rail, even where the largest gains to be had is in cycling.

Much like transferring space to cycling, to try to suggest Dublin City centre is finished transferring space and junction time to buses is just not dealing with reality.

DCC appear to be spending big advertising in the Irish/English Times based on the most current adverts.

There's likely to major contention with this application again...

p_haugh

Article in the Irish Times about possible changes to the proposal for bus routes going through here under bus connects

is_that_so

monument wrote: »

I’m a strong supporter of rail, but the problem with your theory is the example Amsterdam shows us — a city with very similar features as Dublin such as similar population and density, similar restrictive space in city centres, similar climate and weather etc.

Yet, in Amsterdam, the city’s investment in metro lines continues to be overshadowed by the success story that is cycling in Amsterdam. That’s not to say you don’t invest in rail — it’s to say you do both surface and rail, even where the largest gains to be had is in cycling.

Much like transferring space to cycling, to try to suggest Dublin City centre is finished transferring space and junction time to buses is just not dealing with reality.

I do wish people would stop doing the "Amsterdam solution". Sure the core cities are similar in size but Dublin's hinterland, i.e, where a huge number of commuters come from, dwarfs it. Secondly, we are not Dutch! Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.

donvito99

is_that_so wrote: »

I do wish people would stop doing the "Amsterdam solution". Sure the core cities are similar in size but Dublin's hinterland, i.e, where a huge number of commuters come from, dwarfs it. Secondly, we are not Dutch! Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.

If we are not Dutch then the Dutch weren't Dutch in the 1970s before they decided they'd build bicycle infrastructure (and the rest is history).

Mass transit would improve to a great extent if road space allocated to cars and car parking was transferred to buses and cyclists i.e. the Amsterdam solution.

50% of commuters into the City core are already on buses, 70% of all commuters aren't in cars. There's really very little damage to be done in prioritizing other modes and excluding cars from certain areas of the city entirely (or charging them for the time lost to their congestion).

Metros and Dart Undergrounds aren't necessary to get the city moving. The city would move just fine but for cars.

LeinsterDub

is_that_so wrote: »

Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible

'by whatever means possible' with a silent except anything to limit cars after it?

celtcia

donvito99 wrote: »

If we are not Dutch then the Dutch weren't Dutch in the 1970s before they decided they'd build bicycle infrastructure (and the rest is history).

Mass transit would improve to a great extent if road space allocated to cars and car parking was transferred to buses and cyclists i.e. the Amsterdam solution.

50% of commuters into the City core are already on buses, 70% of all commuters aren't in cars. There's really very little damage to be done in prioritizing other modes and excluding cars from certain areas of the city entirely (or charging them for the time lost to their congestion).

Metros and Dart Undergrounds aren't necessary to get the city moving. The city would move just fine but for cars.

Truth prevails flawed application...
Support transport, children and green grass not elite spaces...

Support good design...

https://beta.courts.ie/view/judgments/d8766f0b-a39f-454e-b98b-a95215d91adf/1a95b92f-b228-4627-b577-7c8285736fb7/[2020]_IEHC_4_Conway%20v.%20An%20BORD%20Pleanala_JR_1029_2018.pdf/pdf

donvito99

celtcia wrote: »

Truth prevails flawed application...
Support transport, children and green grass not elite spaces...

Support good design...

https://beta.courts.ie/view/judgments/d8766f0b-a39f-454e-b98b-a95215d91adf/1a95b92f-b228-4627-b577-7c8285736fb7/[2020]_IEHC_4_Conway%20v.%20An%20BORD%20Pleanala_JR_1029_2018.pdf/pdf

What?

Breezer

donvito99 wrote: »

What?

The poster Celtcia, I think, has a vested interest in this, and represents a company with an alternative proposal for College Green.

Nothing wrong with that but I think it should be highlighted.

monument

is_that_so wrote: »

I do wish people would stop doing the "Amsterdam solution". Sure the core cities are similar in size

It's not just the core cities which are comparable -- the city boundary areas are also comparable, but the key areas which are comparable are the continuous urban areas (ie urban continuum areas).

is_that_so wrote: »

but Dublin's hinterland, i.e, where a huge number of commuters come from, dwarfs it.

Both Dublin and Amsterdam have commuters coming from similar distances away. The main extend of both ranges to something like 120km away which is Eindhoven or Lonford.

is_that_so wrote: »

Secondly, we are not Dutch!

What does that even mean?

is_that_so wrote: »

Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.

It does not work like that. Even where there's huge amount of public transport (like London and Paris), there's always somebody giving excuses why street uses cannot change (like "we are not Dutch!").

cdaly_

is_that_so wrote: »

Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.

I think deciding who gets to use the city streets will go a long way towards addressing the mass transit issues which are pretty much all private-car-induced congestion...

celtcia

monument wrote: »

Both Dublin and Amsterdam have commuters coming from similar distances away. The main extend of both ranges to something like 120km away which is Eindhoven or Lonford.

But no train to the airport.... = road space...


Segregated Bike lanes?

Jamie2k9

C Green will have restrictions on cars in place

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/car-bans-and-pedestrianised-college-green-part-of-radical-covid-19-plan-to-re-open-dublin-1.4247910

_Kaiser_

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

C Green will have restrictions on cars in place

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/car-bans-and-pedestrianised-college-green-part-of-radical-covid-19-plan-to-re-open-dublin-1.4247910

Just saw that.. strikes me as a cynical move to force the idea through on a "temporary" basis while the traffic numbers are restricted anyway.

When things finally get back to normal, you can be sure the rest of the needed infrastructure (buses, park and ride etc) won't be in place to support it.

donvito99

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Just saw that.. strikes me as a cynical move to force the idea through on a "temporary" basis while the traffic numbers are restricted anyway.

When things finally get back to normal, you can be sure the rest of the needed infrastructure (buses, park and ride etc) won't be in place to support it.

Closure to all traffic will hardly necessitate more park and ride or buses, what private traffic is going through CG religiously at the moment?

Hurrache

Nothing cynical about it, it's the right move considering it'll still be open to buses.

College Green is a destination in itself for very very few people, it's a through way.

donvito99

I had previously been in favour of complete pedestrianisation (but for Luas) but have come around to the necessity for buses to be able to move from Dame St to O'CS and vice versa. There's no where else for, say, buses from O'CS to go which offers a sensible cross city service.

That being said, taxis must go and overall footpath space must go up under any proposal.

celtcia

Hurrache wrote: »

Nothing cynical about it, it's the right move considering it'll still be open to buses.

College Green is a destination in itself for very very few people, it's a through way.

DCC need to come clean and confess there sins and move forward... this is not going away...

celtcia

celtcia wrote: »

But no train to the airport.... = road space...


Segregated Bike lanes?

No comments? I should wear a black hat instead of white... 🎩

AlekSmart

celtcia wrote: »

DCC need to come clean and confess there sins and move forward... this is not going away...

Some self-cleaning today ?

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/0513/1138154-coronavirus-dublin-city-council/

It's surely hugely contentious how DCC's Owen Keegan has very obviously used the Covid emergency to facilitate his chosen preffered option.

He said that wider footpaths and cycle lanes, as well as pedestrianised roads during parts of the day, are among the plans being considered to increase mobility and allow for social distancing as the easing of Covid-19 restrictions begins.

Indeed.
However it is also noteworthy,that at the same time DCC has abandoned other more basic elements of their remit,as can be evidenced by the condition of areas such as outside number 70+71 Lower Leeson Street or Stephens Green North,inbound outside the Shelbourne hotel...not enough rounds of applause to be gotten I suppose ?

As has been the norm since the late 1960's,with ALL Dublin City Authorities,it does'nt take long before their long standing fear & allegiance to the Status Quo has to be confirmed....

Mr Keegan said that Dublin City Council will preserve vehicular access to the city and all car parks but may restrict routes and access at particular times, adding that doing so is "not unreasonable" as it promotes more sustainable modes of transport.

End of discussion....before it even started

monument

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Just saw that.. strikes me as a cynical move to force the idea through on a "temporary" basis while the traffic numbers are restricted anyway.

When things finally get back to normal, you can be sure the rest of the needed infrastructure (buses, park and ride etc) won't be in place to support it.

It must be nice for some people who were so cynical to how many people outside vehicles used College Green to continue to be so cynical even when more space is needed for people on foot than ever before and space for cycling is needed more than ever given that everybody won't be able to pack into buses as before and the city cannot fit more cars.

celtcia wrote: »

No comments?

Not for ranting which has nothing to do with what I said.

1 sheep2

donvito99 wrote: »

I had previously been in favour of complete pedestrianisation (but for Luas) but have come around to the necessity for buses to be able to move from Dame St to O'CS and vice versa. There's no where else for, say, buses from O'CS to go which offers a sensible cross city service.

That being said, taxis must go and overall footpath space must go up under any proposal.

If buses are allowed, along with cyclists and the Luas, then pedestrians gain practically nothing.

Perhaps I'm minimising the inconvenience it would cause, but similar to how motorists must come to realise that they cannot expect to be allowed bring their 4x2m, loud and smelly, possession into the city centre and leave it there, bus users cannot expect to travel through the city without changing buses, unless their routes are shifted to the outskirts, like the Dart line.

donvito99

1 sheep2 wrote: »

I
Perhaps I'm minimising the inconvenience it would cause, but similar to how motorists must come to realise that they cannot expect to be allowed bring their 4x2m, loud and smelly, possession into the city centre and leave it there, bus users cannot expect to travel through the city without changing buses, unless their routes are shifted to the outskirts, like the Dart line.

I think a bit more space for pedestrians in College Green isn't a good enough reason to handicap the bus service.

If you restricted the variation of movements of buses, and got rid of taxis, I think the pedestrian experience would be much, much better.

1 sheep2

donvito99 wrote: »

I think a bit more space for pedestrians in College Green isn't a good enough reason to handicap the bus service.

If you restricted the variation of movements of buses, and got rid of taxis, I think the pedestrian experience would be much, much better.

I don't really know enough to be able to judge how the bus network could adapt. But pedestrianising College Green - giving pedestrians an area where they are not corralled along narrow footpaths that are shared by bus stops, and giving Dublin a central focal point - achieves much more than merely giving them a bit more space, I think.

donvito99

1 sheep2 wrote: »

I don't really know enough to be able to judge how the bus network could adapt. But pedestrianising College Green - giving pedestrians an area where they are not corralled along narrow footpaths that are shared by bus stops, and giving Dublin a central focal point - achieves much more than merely giving them a bit more space, I think.

There are other measures though (like greater permeability for North - South pedestrians in front of Trinity, reduction in modes allowed access to College Green, reduction in the number of buses using College Green, etc) that would allow for a much improved pedestrian experience without disproportionately affecting the bus service.

I once saw College Green as a great opportunity to have a plaza in the capital but it is too critical a location and is rather small when you think about it (especially with the Bank and Trinity restricting access inevitably).

1 sheep2

donvito99 wrote: »

There are other measures though (like greater permeability for North - South pedestrians in front of Trinity, reduction in modes allowed access to College Green, reduction in the number of buses using College Green, etc) that would allow for a much improved pedestrian experience without disproportionately affecting the bus service.

I once saw College Green as a great opportunity to have a plaza in the capital but it is too critical a location and is rather small when you think about it (especially with the Bank and Trinity restricting access inevitably).

Private motorists don't have access to College Green at present, so the only potential improvement would be the banning of taxis. And with the Luas, the crossing outside Bank of Ireland is favourable already to pedestrians.

I agree that a pedestrianised College Green isn't quite the pedestrian panacea that some seem to think it is. There are very few retail spaces in the immediate area that would be able to take advantage of it and Bank of Ireland, which is of no use to most people, dominates the area and prevents a link-in with Temple Bar. There's something of a risk that it could come to be a grey expanse that's desolate at times and crisscrossed by a mass of pedestrians at others, rather than the idealised continental piazza. But I still maintain that it's better for the city that the mid point of its four most important areas - Grafton/SG/surrounding streets, Temple Bar, O'Connell/Henry and Trinity College - be a pedestrian plaza, giving the city coherence and space for pedestrians to roam.

donvito99

1 sheep2 wrote: »

But I still maintain that it's better for the city that the mid point of its four most important areas - Grafton/SG/surrounding streets, Temple Bar, O'Connell/Henry and Trinity College - be a pedestrian plaza, giving the city coherence and space for pedestrians to roam.

I think if the public realm is of a high quality and a good deal of the clutter is removed, Luas + scheduled bus traffic can be maintained.

Buses on the North / South access can just follow the Luas. That would allow for a plaza and uninterrupted (i.e. no waits) pedestrian access between the bottom of Grafton St and O'Connell Bridge.

If you wanted to facilitate West - East bus traffic, you could have westbound buses (from Nassau St) go up Grafton St and left onto Dame St (eating into a certain amount of the plaza) and buses coming from Dame St travelling east go via Suffolk St, avoiding the plaza altogether.

Ultimately, the most logical and useful cross city bus routes go via CG and to curtail or abandon those alignments so that pedestrians can wander seems to be extreme.

cgcsb

Have gotten the impression that all this public realm stuff has come off the boil in the past week.

Peregrine

cgcsb wrote: »

Have gotten the impression that all this public realm stuff has come off the boil in the past week.

I would have said the opposite. DTTAS/NTA offered technical and financial support for all 31 councils today:



https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/062bd-minister-ross-announces-nationwide-supports-for-pedestrians-and-cyclists/

DLRCC announced this for Blackrock yesterday: https://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/news/general-news-public-notices-press-releases/dlr-create-safe-and-dynamic-public-space-pedestrians

I don't see why DCC would go off the boil with public realm projects. It'll take a few weeks to design things though. It was only 6 days ago that the DCC/NTA interim mobility report was published. Due to be debated at the Transport SPC on Wednesday (won't be subject to a vote).

cgcsb

In a few weeks we'll be mostly back to normal, cars will be back and the opportunity will be gone. 3 weeks ago DCC were physically going out and putting in proper cycle lanes on stretches where there had been expensive glossy 'plans' to do so for multiple years. Now we're back to more plans. :-(