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Buses and the College Green Plaza -- what can make it work?

  • 21-06-2016 3:21pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument
    Moderator


    What bus-priority measures would minimise the effects of the College Green Plaza on bus routes?

    Public transport only on all of Dame Street? Bus lanes on the south quays? Changing of routes more than already suggested?

    This is partly covered by another thread, but to build on that I want to start a fresh and focused discussion here.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,304 ✭✭✭ cgcsb
    Registered User


    Doubling the bus lane on the north and south quays between Grattan Bridge and O'Connell bridge would improve journey times enough to compensate for the planned Parliament st bottleneck. This could mean the CPOing of Arnotts and Fleet St multi story, both of which could be a really good thing for the city. One or both of them could be converted to coach parking for the multiple tour operators and/or secure bike parking facilities, the upper floors could even be converted into loft style apartments and sold on to recoup some of the CPO money.

    Fantasy solution would include bus only on Dame st, new bus lane on Tara st and double bus lane on Nassau St. Also the Exchequer/South William/Clarendon/Drury st area ought to be bike only in my opinion with deliveries restricted to early morning hours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭ Axton Damp Thanks


    Above solution would remove at least 4 car parks from the city centre. Probably not a runner once the business people get involved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,663 ✭✭✭ trellheim
    Registered User


    You need to re-route a lot of stuff.

    Deliveries MUST still get into town somehow

    People MUST still get into the city centre , ie a short distance from O'Connell Bridge

    Capel St /Grattan Bridge becomes a huge bottleneck, the huge distance required to make the turn onto parliament st as LX says will diminish the amount of buses that can fit on parliament st, this means to keep it moving you need a lot of green time north/south and this screws the quays up as they will be on red. A double bus lane wont help all that much !


  • Registered Users Posts: 873 ✭✭✭ stop
    Registered User


    What about letting some buses use the Luas alignment from SSG to Harcourt?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,104 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762
    Registered User


    What will make it work? Ban the taxis.

    Luas + bus may very well work along here provided the provision of bus stops is sensible. Allow taxis to use it and they'll all pile in and block the whole lot up solid.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭✭✭ celtcia
    Banned


    There are a few options that might make it work if I post any links I'll probably get banned!
    Not all of them but some of them are:

    1. Only one bus lane in College Green Plaza and one on Suffolk St
    2. 2 On College Green Plaza
    3. A secret one I'm not telling.

    All would most likely ideally need a small bus type.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/exhibition-road-kensington-the-30m-naked-street-stops-trying-to-mix-cars-and-people-7dj7rwn8c


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭ MrAbyss
    Banned


    Pedestrianization. Problem solved.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Irish Steve
    Moderator


    Reality check. You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, and the missing element in the Dublin City transport system is mass transit, and like it or not, that is NOT yet more buses, as the issues of capacity of the road system, dwell time and related issues can't be resolved by trying to push even more buses into a space and capacity limited area.

    The missing link is a properly designed and structured metro underground system, which would have the capacity to carry the numbers without the problems that are unresolvable using buses as the prime mover. 1 train carries somewhere close to the same as 7 buses, and the uncomfortable reality is that there is no road based solution, and it's just been made even more pressing by the plans to remove all carbon based small vehicles from the roads by 2045.

    This change will only make the problems worse, and the longer the relevant people try to pretend that there is a street level solution, the worse the problem will become.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭✭✭ celtcia
    Banned


    Reality check. You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, and the missing element in the Dublin City transport system is mass transit, and like it or not, that is NOT yet more buses, as the issues of capacity of the road system, dwell time and related issues can't be resolved by trying to push even more buses into a space and capacity limited area.

    The missing link is a properly designed and structured metro underground system, which would have the capacity to carry the numbers without the problems that are unresolvable using buses as the prime mover. 1 train carries somewhere close to the same as 7 buses, and the uncomfortable reality is that there is no road based solution, and it's just been made even more pressing by the plans to remove all carbon based small vehicles from the roads by 2045.

    This change will only make the problems worse, and the longer the relevant people try to pretend that there is a street level solution, the worse the problem will become.

    If metro north had gone ahead application would have had a slightly better chance. But metro north was a glorified tram. Ideally the previous RPA would a deal with Dublin Bus regarding a recruitment management split and conditions. Never happened...

    I would like ICE trains from Belfast under O'Connell St to cork. But the taxpayer will basically fund the profit of developers in Docklands for any dart underground or similar.

    Some interesting designs for metro stations going around...


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart
    Registered User


    What will make it work? Ban the taxis.

    Luas + bus may very well work along here provided the provision of bus stops is sensible. Allow taxis to use it and they'll all pile in and block the whole lot up solid.

    As long as Dublin's taxi service provision remains in it's currently unmanaged state then a total ban on their use of the College Green facility is inevitable.

    With the Gardai now having ceased attempts to Police the 0700-1000 Taxi ban,the only feasible solution appears to be a Taxi Plate/Reg Plate ANPR solution which would impose a €200 Bus-Gate Toll on each Taxi.

    This toll,rather than the traditional,and hugely problematic,fixed penalty or Court appearance,would be a far more realistic method of convincing the Taxi "industry" that sections of the Road Traffic Act's do actually apply to Taxi drivers.

    Hand the management of the Bus-Gate (and perhaps Bus Lanes as well) over to the Emovis (E-Flow) who have vast and successful experience of ANPR based revenue collecting....https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/1021/1084796-m50-toll-fines/

    Something HAS to be done...but then again,that translates in Irish to "Ah sure It'll be grand" ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99
    Registered User


    I would restrict all movements to Nassau St - Dame St.

    West to East would go via Suffolk St (a 'Trinity' stop just before turning off Dame St which allows for a southbound Green Line connection).

    East to West buses would come via a contra flow bus lane on Nassau St, and turn right on to Grafton St, and left on to Dame St. Freeflow, zebra type pedestrian crossings to keep pedestrians moving and allows everybody to figure things out for themselves. A stop just after South Frederick St on Nassau St - 'Dawson' - allows for changing to the Green Line, north and southbound.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,304 ✭✭✭ cgcsb
    Registered User


    The bus connects redesign removes most buses from college green effectively solving the issue, no? We have the taxi ban already, all that's needed after that is actual enforcement


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument
    Moderator


    Reality check. You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, and the missing element in the Dublin City transport system is mass transit, and like it or not, that is NOT yet more buses, as the issues of capacity of the road system, dwell time and related issues can't be resolved by trying to push even more buses into a space and capacity limited area.

    The missing link is a properly designed and structured metro underground system, which would have the capacity to carry the numbers without the problems that are unresolvable using buses as the prime mover. 1 train carries somewhere close to the same as 7 buses, and the uncomfortable reality is that there is no road based solution, and it's just been made even more pressing by the plans to remove all carbon based small vehicles from the roads by 2045.

    This change will only make the problems worse, and the longer the relevant people try to pretend that there is a street level solution, the worse the problem will become.

    I’m a strong supporter of rail, but the problem with your theory is the example Amsterdam shows us — a city with very similar features as Dublin such as similar population and density, similar restrictive space in city centres, similar climate and weather etc.

    Yet, in Amsterdam, the city’s investment in metro lines continues to be overshadowed by the success story that is cycling in Amsterdam. That’s not to say you don’t invest in rail — it’s to say you do both surface and rail, even where the largest gains to be had is in cycling.

    Much like transferring space to cycling, to try to suggest Dublin City centre is finished transferring space and junction time to buses is just not dealing with reality.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭✭✭ celtcia
    Banned


    monument wrote: »
    I’m a strong supporter of rail, but the problem with your theory is the example Amsterdam shows us — a city with very similar features as Dublin such as similar population and density, similar restrictive space in city centres, similar climate and weather etc.

    Yet, in Amsterdam, the city’s investment in metro lines continues to be overshadowed by the success story that is cycling in Amsterdam. That’s not to say you don’t invest in rail — it’s to say you do both surface and rail, even where the largest gains to be had is in cycling.

    Much like transferring space to cycling, to try to suggest Dublin City centre is finished transferring space and junction time to buses is just not dealing with reality.

    DCC appear to be spending big advertising in the Irish/English Times based on the most current adverts.

    There's likely to major contention with this application again...


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so
    Registered User


    monument wrote: »
    I’m a strong supporter of rail, but the problem with your theory is the example Amsterdam shows us — a city with very similar features as Dublin such as similar population and density, similar restrictive space in city centres, similar climate and weather etc.

    Yet, in Amsterdam, the city’s investment in metro lines continues to be overshadowed by the success story that is cycling in Amsterdam. That’s not to say you don’t invest in rail — it’s to say you do both surface and rail, even where the largest gains to be had is in cycling.

    Much like transferring space to cycling, to try to suggest Dublin City centre is finished transferring space and junction time to buses is just not dealing with reality.
    I do wish people would stop doing the "Amsterdam solution". Sure the core cities are similar in size but Dublin's hinterland, i.e, where a huge number of commuters come from, dwarfs it. Secondly, we are not Dutch! Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99
    Registered User


    is_that_so wrote: »
    I do wish people would stop doing the "Amsterdam solution". Sure the core cities are similar in size but Dublin's hinterland, i.e, where a huge number of commuters come from, dwarfs it. Secondly, we are not Dutch! Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.

    If we are not Dutch then the Dutch weren't Dutch in the 1970s before they decided they'd build bicycle infrastructure (and the rest is history).

    Mass transit would improve to a great extent if road space allocated to cars and car parking was transferred to buses and cyclists i.e. the Amsterdam solution.

    50% of commuters into the City core are already on buses, 70% of all commuters aren't in cars. There's really very little damage to be done in prioritizing other modes and excluding cars from certain areas of the city entirely (or charging them for the time lost to their congestion).

    Metros and Dart Undergrounds aren't necessary to get the city moving. The city would move just fine but for cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub
    Registered User


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible

    'by whatever means possible' with a silent except anything to limit cars after it?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭✭✭ celtcia
    Banned


    donvito99 wrote: »
    If we are not Dutch then the Dutch weren't Dutch in the 1970s before they decided they'd build bicycle infrastructure (and the rest is history).

    Mass transit would improve to a great extent if road space allocated to cars and car parking was transferred to buses and cyclists i.e. the Amsterdam solution.

    50% of commuters into the City core are already on buses, 70% of all commuters aren't in cars. There's really very little damage to be done in prioritizing other modes and excluding cars from certain areas of the city entirely (or charging them for the time lost to their congestion).

    Metros and Dart Undergrounds aren't necessary to get the city moving. The city would move just fine but for cars.

    Truth prevails flawed application...
    Support transport, children and green grass not elite spaces...

    Support good design...

    https://beta.courts.ie/view/judgments/d8766f0b-a39f-454e-b98b-a95215d91adf/1a95b92f-b228-4627-b577-7c8285736fb7/[2020]_IEHC_4_Conway%20v.%20An%20BORD%20Pleanala_JR_1029_2018.pdf/pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99
    Registered User


    celtcia wrote: »
    Truth prevails flawed application...
    Support transport, children and green grass not elite spaces...

    Support good design...

    https://beta.courts.ie/view/judgments/d8766f0b-a39f-454e-b98b-a95215d91adf/1a95b92f-b228-4627-b577-7c8285736fb7/[2020]_IEHC_4_Conway%20v.%20An%20BORD%20Pleanala_JR_1029_2018.pdf/pdf

    What?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭ Breezer
    Registered User


    donvito99 wrote: »
    What?
    The poster Celtcia, I think, has a vested interest in this, and represents a company with an alternative proposal for College Green.

    Nothing wrong with that but I think it should be highlighted.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument
    Moderator


    is_that_so wrote: »
    I do wish people would stop doing the "Amsterdam solution". Sure the core cities are similar in size

    It's not just the core cities which are comparable -- the city boundary areas are also comparable, but the key areas which are comparable are the continuous urban areas (ie urban continuum areas).
    is_that_so wrote: »
    but Dublin's hinterland, i.e, where a huge number of commuters come from, dwarfs it.

    Both Dublin and Amsterdam have commuters coming from similar distances away. The main extend of both ranges to something like 120km away which is Eindhoven or Lonford.

    is_that_so wrote: »
    Secondly, we are not Dutch!

    What does that even mean?
    is_that_so wrote: »
    Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.

    It does not work like that. Even where there's huge amount of public transport (like London and Paris), there's always somebody giving excuses why street uses cannot change (like "we are not Dutch!").


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭ cdaly_
    Registered User


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Address the mass transit issues by whatever means possible and then you can look at who gets to use the city streets.

    I think deciding who gets to use the city streets will go a long way towards addressing the mass transit issues which are pretty much all private-car-induced congestion...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭✭✭ celtcia
    Banned


    monument wrote: »

    Both Dublin and Amsterdam have commuters coming from similar distances away. The main extend of both ranges to something like 120km away which is Eindhoven or Lonford.


    But no train to the airport.... = road space...


    Segregated Bike lanes?


    image-asset.jpeg?format=1000w


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9
    Registered User




  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_
    Registered User


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »

    Just saw that.. strikes me as a cynical move to force the idea through on a "temporary" basis while the traffic numbers are restricted anyway.

    When things finally get back to normal, you can be sure the rest of the needed infrastructure (buses, park and ride etc) won't be in place to support it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99
    Registered User


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Just saw that.. strikes me as a cynical move to force the idea through on a "temporary" basis while the traffic numbers are restricted anyway.

    When things finally get back to normal, you can be sure the rest of the needed infrastructure (buses, park and ride etc) won't be in place to support it.

    Closure to all traffic will hardly necessitate more park and ride or buses, what private traffic is going through CG religiously at the moment?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,768 ✭✭✭ Hurrache
    Registered User


    Nothing cynical about it, it's the right move considering it'll still be open to buses.

    College Green is a destination in itself for very very few people, it's a through way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭ donvito99
    Registered User


    I had previously been in favour of complete pedestrianisation (but for Luas) but have come around to the necessity for buses to be able to move from Dame St to O'CS and vice versa. There's no where else for, say, buses from O'CS to go which offers a sensible cross city service.

    That being said, taxis must go and overall footpath space must go up under any proposal.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭✭✭ celtcia
    Banned


    Hurrache wrote: »
    Nothing cynical about it, it's the right move considering it'll still be open to buses.

    College Green is a destination in itself for very very few people, it's a through way.

    DCC need to come clean and confess there sins and move forward... this is not going away...


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