Renting Query

Quandary

We have a 2 bed apartment which will be available to rent in a desirable part of
Dublin very soon. It is coming with two parking spaces and is also a top floor apartment. Other apartments in the complex rarely come up for rent and are now getting €1450 per month.

My wife and I recently moved to a house in north county Dublin. I was planning on only renting out one room of the apartment and keep the other room for myself/wife on the extremely rare occasion we need a room to sleep in close to town.

When I say extremely rare occasion I'm talking probably 5 times maximum in the year, and apart from that we would never be in the apartment.

My plan was to rent the largest room to a professional couple, and explain clearly what our arrangement would be and if they would be happy to agree to it. Because they would technically not be renting the whole apartment from us we would only be looking for €1100 per month. The apartment only has one bill - ESB and this would be transferred to the name(s) of the tenants.

Just to make it clear, we will be fully tax compliant and will not be trying to claim this falls under the rent a room scheme. The only reason we are considering taking this approach is so that we will be in a stronger position to evict bad tenants as they will technically only be renting a room.

What are people's thoughts on this idea? Could it work and will it give us more protection and control over getting rid of problem tenants?

Polo_Mint

So you are looking for a licence arrangement rather then a tenant

Quandary

Polo_Mint wrote: »

So you are looking for a licence arrangement rather then a tenant

Yes, a licence arrangement would appear to cover what I'm proposing alright.

It's certianly a route I would be considering also though you wont get that high a portion of the rent from someone most likely. That being said things are mad at the moment.

The other option is to rent the two rooms seperately and retain access to the common areas this way you get more rent but still keep the people living there licensees. This type of setup is probably easier to get up and running in a house though rather than apartment.

The amount of power tenants have at the moment I think people are mad not going down a route renting rooms seperately or any other method to prevent the people getting rights.

You could also rent one of the parking spaces seperately and just offer one with the apartment if the spaces are in a place people would pay to park of course.

Polo_Mint

Quandary wrote: »

Yes, a licence arrangement would appear to cover what I'm proposing alright.

I think €1100 is going to be way too much for a licence arrangement.

They would have minimum if any rights compared to a tenant.

Think about it this way, Would you personally pay €1100 as a licencee?

Polo_Mint

Lila Shallow Shortstop wrote: »

The amount of power tenants have at the moment I think people are mad not going down a route renting rooms seperately or any other method to prevent the people getting rights.

You dont think people who are consumers ( Renters ) should have rights?

Quandary

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I think €1100 is going to be way too much for a licence arrangement.

They would have minimum if any rights compared to a tenant.

Think about it this way, Would you personally pay €1100 as a licencee?

In the current rental climate I would be willing to consider as opposed to paying €1450 or more for a full tenancy lease on a property.

I intend to have a solicitor go through everything with us so that all is very clear. Any potential licensee we interview will be completely aware of the arrangement ao there will be full clarity and no confusion.

Edit - we would only be choosing a couple, as otherwise expecting a single person to pay that much for a room would be pointless.

RossieMan

It's disgraceful if this type of thing is allowed. Surely it can't be legal?

Polo_Mint

Quandary wrote: »

In the current rental climate I would be willing to consider as opposed to paying €1450 or more for a full tenancy lease on a property.

I intend to have a solicitor go through everything with us so that all is very clear. Any potential licensee we interview will be completely aware of the arrangement ao there will be full clarity and no confusion.

In the current market you can share for half the price in the City

http://www.daft.ie/dublin-city/apartment-share/dublin-city-centre/

What it would look like for that price is the following

You are looking for someone to pay 100% of your mortgage for the right to sleep in a room and have 0 rights.

I know alot of people preach about "current rental climate" but people also know value for money. hence people renting further out from the city for much better value

Penny Tration

If you're renting a room, and there are two rooms, you're daft thinking you'd get 1100. Try 800.

Quandary

I'm not putting a gun to anyone's head, nor am I trying to pull the wool over somebodies eyes. If we don't have any interested parties at €1100 then we will revise the price downwards.

If it came to it I would prefer to rent a room to a single person for €800 or 700p/m as opposed to renting out the full property for €1500.

I know too many people who have been badly burned by terrible tenants and have lost huge sums of money in the eviction process.

Also, for what it's worth, I would happily rent the entire apartment to any rent allowance tenant for €1100 p/m if the local authority would sign a contract agreeing to pay that amount every month for the duration of the tenants stay.

Unfortunately this will never happen - and it's probably a tangential discussion to this thread anyway.

The_Conductor

Quandary - I honestly don't think it matters whether or not you go through a solicitor- and whether or not your solicitor thinks it'll fly if its queried.

All it takes is the 'licensees' to make a complaint to the Residential Tenancies Board- as is their want- and you would have random strangers adjudicating on whether they were tenants or not- and if they were judged to be tenants- the agreement that you'd have gotten your solicitor to do up- wouldn't be worth the paper its written on- as a tenant cannot be offered worse conditions than those specified in the Residential Tenancies Act (as amended).

All it takes is for an adjudicator to decide you're playing fast and loose with the 'tenant' and suddenly you've a whole more interesting issue at hand.

Its safest to rent the entire property- at the market price- properly and legally. Register the tenancy and declare the income and pay any taxes or levies due.

If you are in North Dublin- and genuinely will only need a bedroom 4-5 times a year- use the additional income and get yourself a hotel room- or indeed- book a cab home- it really is opening a whole world of misery trying to bend the rules to suit yourself in this manner.

If you are worried about the tenants- and overstaying etc- specify that you want 2-3 months rent as a deposit- which is wholly refundable on the return of the property in the state in which it was rented. Then video the hand-over- going through the property in minutiae- so there can be no disputing the condition of the hand-over.

If you do want it back after a year- or a particular term- flag this long in advance- and give at very minimum the requisite notice- in a proper manner.

Don't play games like you're suggesting- it'll only come back to bite you in the ass sooner or later.

GreatDefector

Quandary wrote: »

Also, for what it's worth, I would happily rent the entire apartment to any rent allowance tenant for €1100 p/m if the local authority would sign a contract agreeing to pay that amount every month for the duration of the tenants stay.

Ah thanks. You've very generous. And for the non RA tenants will you request the same guarantee from our workplace?

Quandary

The_Conductor wrote: »

Quandary - I honestly don't think it matters whether or not you go through a solicitor- and whether or not your solicitor thinks it'll fly if its queried.

All it takes is the 'licensees' to make a complaint to the Residential Tenancies Board- as is their want- and you would have random strangers adjudicating on whether they were tenants or not- and if they were judged to be tenants- the agreement that you'd have gotten your solicitor to do up- wouldn't be worth the paper its written on- as a tenant cannot be offered worse conditions than those specified in the Residential Tenancies Act (as amended).

All it takes is for an adjudicator to decide you're playing fast and loose with the 'tenant' and suddenly you've a whole more interesting issue at hand.

Its safest to rent the entire property- at the market price- properly and legally. Register the tenancy and declare the income and pay any taxes or levies due.

If you are in North Dublin- and genuinely will only need a bedroom 4-5 times a year- use the additional income and get yourself a hotel room- or indeed- book a cab home- it really is opening a whole world of misery trying to bend the rules to suit yourself in this manner.

If you are worried about the tenants- and overstaying etc- specify that you want 2-3 months rent as a deposit- which is wholly refundable on the return of the property in the state in which it was rented. Then video the hand-over- going through the property in minutiae- so there can be no disputing the condition of the hand-over.

If you do want it back after a year- or a particular term- flag this long in advance- and give at very minimum the requisite notice- in a proper manner.

Don't play games like you're suggesting- it'll only come back to bite you in the ass sooner or later.

This is probably the most sensible option alright. If I could be guaranteed good tenants I would happily take €1100 p/m but obviously it is not possible to guarantee this. I will probably just rent the whole apartment for €1450p/m just to mitigate any losses I incur due to poor tenants.

I have read all of the threads regarding nightmare tenants on this forum. It would make you incredibly cynical as a new landlord.

Quandary

GreatDefector wrote: »

Ah thanks. You've very generous. And for the non RA tenants will you request the same guarantee from our workplace?

If it were possible, absolutely 100%.

Polo_Mint

Quandary wrote: »

I'm not putting a gun to anyone's head, nor am I trying to pull the wool over somebodies eyes. If we don't have any interested parties at €1100 then we will revise the price downwards.

If it came to it I would prefer to rent a room to a single person for €800 or 700p/m as opposed to renting out the full property for €1500.

I know too many people who have been badly burned by terrible tenants and have lost huge sums of money in the eviction process.

Also, for what it's worth, I would happily rent the entire apartment to any rent allowance tenant for €1100 p/m if the local authority would sign a contract agreeing to pay that amount every month for the duration of the tenants stay.

Unfortunately this will never happen - and it's probably a tangential discussion to this thread anyway.

Tenants can and have burned landlords

Do you think landlords who were jacking up the rent on there tenants by the 100s using the " Current Climate " excuse were not burning their tenants?

Landlords can do do shakedown tenants all the time, Actually more then tenants burning landlords.

Anyway you can advertise and see what happens

Claw Hammer

This High Court decision shows some of the problems the o/ps approach might run into.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/C44D283B4830252680257DB700404B8D

The o/p should do AIRbnb if he wants to avoid the RTB.

There is no sense in keeping a room idle but for 5 nights a year. It is cheaper to stay in a hotel when a room is needen that forego several thousand euro in a year.

zef

OP I agree with you, the fear of a tenancy costing you money causes a lot more Landlords letting out rooms on a licencee basis, thus lowering the amount of housing available to families. I have a similar problem, for work I may relocate for a year or so. Houses on my quiet mature estate renting at 1,400. For the 2 double rooms (retaining the box room) I would ask 500 each. I double, 1 twin.
Being honest I'd like to help re-house someone, I've looked into HAP- I'd be guaranteed the payment as long as the would-be renters paid their part of the rent. But what if they don't?
Would you consider students? Afaik you can get their parents to become guarantors. I was thinking about this as it's less risky.
I'm wondering how much my House Insurance will go up also if I am renting out rooms to Students?

Baby01032012

GreatDefector wrote: »

Ah thanks. You've very generous. And for the non RA tenants will you request the same guarantee from our workplace?

For the reason that council pay the rent not the tenant. Employers pay a salary which an individual has discretion what to pay from it. RA landlords have to sign forms for DSP, sign agreements with county councils for RAS and similarly with HAP ie rent is not the tenants money, for non RA tenants it's their money.

caviardreams

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no sense in keeping a room idle but for 5 nights a year. It is cheaper to stay in a hotel when a room is needen that forego several thousand euro in a year.

This. You could stay in a hotel for €100 a night for 5 nights during the year for €500 - and get the extra €350 per month in rent. Really don't see how it makes sense in any way.

4ensic15

zef wrote: »

OP I agree with you, the fear of a tenancy costing you money causes a lot more Landlords letting out rooms on a licencee basis, thus lowering the amount of housing available to families. I have a similar problem, for work I may relocate for a year or so. Houses on my quiet mature estate renting at 1,400. For the 2 double rooms (retaining the box room) I would ask 500 each. I double, 1 twin.
Being honest I'd like to help re-house someone, I've looked into HAP- I'd be guaranteed the payment as long as the would-be renters paid their part of the rent. But what if they don't?
Would you consider students? Afaik you can get their parents to become guarantors. I was thinking about this as it's less risky.
I'm wondering how much my House Insurance will go up also if I am renting out rooms to Students?

Keeping a room is no guarantee that the RTB won't find there is a tenancy. All you will have done is cost yourself rent and caused hassle if it goes wrong. The thing to do is get someone such as relative or friend in and make the others licencees of that person.

amdddc

Hi, will you be renting out this property for a good few years or are you hoping to sell at some stage? If you are hoping to keep the property for long term, I would suggest renting the entire property out. If you intend to sell, I would consider all your options.

Quandary

We will be keeping the property for at least 10 years, possibly longer.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Quandary - I honestly don't think it matters whether or not you go through a solicitor- and whether or not your solicitor thinks it'll fly if its queried.

All it takes is the 'licensees' to make a complaint to the Residential Tenancies Board- as is their want-

Don't play games like you're suggesting- it'll only come back to bite you in the ass sooner or later.

4ensic15 wrote: »

Keeping a room is no guarantee that the RTB won't find there is a tenancy. All you will have done is cost yourself rent and caused hassle if it goes wrong. The thing to do is get someone such as relative or friend in and make the others licencees of that person.

Where are you both getting these ideas from. You are perfectly entitled to rent a room and retain a room thus keeping the person a licensee. The RTB have no authority to get involved in an owner occupier vs licensee setup it's simply scare mongering saying otherwise.

Of course the op should not bother talking with a solicitor or informing the licensee what he is doing, he should be renting a room in the "house he lives in" popping in regularly and making sure it's known to the licensee he is around etc.

Can't see any grounds for the posts above the RTB have no jurisdiction if the op retains a room, absolutely none.

The op had the right idea of how to rent his apartment in these times where tenants have far far too many rights.

Grolschevik

Frances Delightful Treachery wrote:

Where are you both getting these ideas from. You are perfectly entitled to rent a room and retain a room thus keeping the person a licensee. The RTB have no authority to get involved in an owner occupier vs licensee setup it's simply scare mongering saying otherwise.

You've been pushing this "people can be licensees even if the landlord doesn't live in the house" thing for a while.

Can I ask what the basis for your belief is? Because even on this forum up til recently, it was generally acknowledged that to be a licensee, the landlord had to be in residence. Specified student college-run term-time accommodation with a caretaker excepted.

Michael D Not Higgins

nox, there is precedence in court cases as already posted, i.e. Zhang v Holohan, where the court decided a few days using the room doesn't count as a resident landlord.

The fact of the matter is that if the RTB and/or courts decide differently, then it's not a licencee arrangement. It doesn't protect you from anything as a stubborn tenant can go through the RTB and court system while you can't evict them.

Woopsey

Is there not another case where the people living in the property were licencees as they only had exclusive rights to their rooms. The land lord had free access to the rest of the property.

Polo_Mint

Polo_Mint wrote: »

You dont think people who are consumers ( Renters ) should have rights?

They should have rights but unfortunately they have too much power as it stands and until LL have the ability to get rid of bad tenants in a very short period of time then the safest option for a person letting a property is to try prevent the people getting these over the top rights.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

nox, there is precedence in court cases as already posted, i.e. Zhang v Holohan, where the court decided a few days using the room doesn't count as a resident landlord.

The fact of the matter is that if the RTB and/or courts decide differently, then it's not a licencee arrangement. It doesn't protect you from anything as a stubborn tenant can go through the RTB and court system while you can't evict them.

There is also precedence where a LL didn't even retain a room but maintained access to common areas and that was deemed a licensee arrangement.

The act of retaining access makes the person a licensee, keeping a room for himself guarantees it. All he has to say to the person is he works odd hours and travels around the country for work and the other person won't even take much notice that he isn't around nor have any grounds for proving it. I have go weeks without crossing paths with housemates in houseshares it's not a strange scenario.

I can't believe it's being debated though it's very clear that once a room is retained the person is a licensee, never mind the fact that people living in houses with rooms let seperately where the LL retains access are also being considered licences.

Michael D Not Higgins

And this is the problem, it comes down to the interpretation of the court to decide whether it's a licence or tenancy. Imagine spending 6 months to get a decision that it's a tenancy so you have to start over again with correct termination notice and then wait another year for the eviction to be enforced.

Michael D Not Higgins

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

And this is the problem, it comes down to the interpretation of the court to decide whether it's a licence or tenancy. Imagine spending 6 months to get a decision that it's a tenancy so you have to start over again with correct termination notice and then wait another year for the eviction to be enforced.

Even the slightest rumbling from the person renting the room and they are out on their ear there would be no waiting 6 months, they are licensees. There is no way the above will happen if the person renting the room keeps their room, has all the bills in their name, returns to the house regularly and keeps stuff in their room.

4ensic15

Lila Shallow Shortstop wrote: »

They should have rights but unfortunately they have too much power as it stands and until LL have the ability to get rid of bad tenants in a very short period of time then the safest option for a person letting a property is to try prevent the people getting these over the top rights.



There is also precedence where a LL didn't even retain a room but maintained access to common areas and that was deemed a licensee arrangement.

The act of retaining access makes the person a licensee, keeping a room for himself guarantees it. All he has to say to the person is he works odd hours and travels around the country for work and the other person won't even take much notice that he isn't around nor have any grounds for proving it. I have go weeks without crossing paths with housemates in houseshares it's not a strange scenario.

I can't believe it's being debated though it's very clear that once a room is retained the person is a licensee, never mind the fact that people living in houses with rooms let seperately where the LL retains access are also being considered licences.

The precedents you are talking about are Tribunal decisions. There are now High Court decisions which are binding. Even keeping a room does not guarantee that it will be found to be a licence arrangement. The landlord has to live there. Claiming to live there while also living somewhere else would mean swearing lies to the Tribunal which is a criminal offence.
No solicitor can guarantee any arrangement which will keep the RTB out of the situation.