A good time to leave the EU??

20silkcut

The CAP is getting smaller.
Regulations are increasing.
More members are looking to joinin the east .
We can get rid of water charges.
We could get back out fishing rights and set our own milk quotas and re start industries like the sugar beet industry.
We could get back into bed with the Brits outside the EU and have our own arrangement with them and be their garden in effect .
We could decide our own animal welfare and traceability policy. Maybe take the brakes of beef production similar to the yanks and South Americans .

cornholiooo

Sounds good.
Maybe keep our own gas / oil as well
The main problem I see is finding enough clever enough / honest / competent / non brain dead people to manage it all.
Financially I don't think it's possible.
We'd go bust in a few months

Username John

Prob not a good time in the short term - see what happens with Britain first, and how that pans out...

On the Agri side - would sugar from sugar beet compete on the world markets? I would have thought cane sugar would always be cheaper produced?

Also, your post is only Agri focused. Leaving the EU would impact a lot more than Ag.
There would be an awful more to consider, and whilst it might be worthwhile for Agri based business, it might not for others, so would need to be weighed up...
One thing would wouldn't impact Agri much, but would have a massive impact on other business is movement of people and ability to work in any EU country.

kay 9

That red haired fairy (Kenny) doesn't want us to leave

kowtow

Username John wrote: »

Also, your post is only Agri focused. Leaving the EU would impact a lot more than Ag.
There would be an awful more to consider, and whilst it might be worthwhile for Agri based business, it might not for others, so would need to be weighed up...

True, as I was explaining to a very blinkered schoolteacher the other night,
It's very difficult to imagine how a country like India, with a highly educated population keen to work in service and technology, could possibly be transformed or indeed survive at all outside the EU.

skywanderer

I'd be in favour of leaving the EU if the Government would keep paying the same level of subsidies as before.

20silkcut

I think the EU is doomed anyway. Too many different and disparate countries to ever unite properly in a strong union.
I also think there are big changes coming down the line with the rise of populism and the cult of personality coming back in to politics in a very strong manner. We are entering into an era where the politics of agreement and compromise are now seen almost as weakness.

kowtow

20silkcut wrote: »

I think the EU is doomed anyway. Too many different and disparate countries to ever unite properly in a strong union.
I also think there are big changes coming down the line with the rise of populism and the cult of personality coming back in to politics in a very strong manner. We are entering into an era where the politics of agreement and compromise are now seen almost as weakness.

I am afraid, putting aside all the emotion of this week, that you are absolutely right.

If a political system absolutely relies on the conceit that everybody is identical (as opposed to equal) to function, then sooner or later people will reassert their own identities in all sorts of ways many of which will be unpalatable and sometimes downright evil.

It's in the nature of humans to assert family & local identities, and it's dangerous when they are imposed externally. This country more than any other and in this year ought to know that.

skywanderer

The left have hardened into hateful individuals whilst centrists and moderates are either swinging far left or further right. The dogma of political correctness and EU interference in our lives and small matters have caused all this. I really hope the EU votes out and that Ireland is forced to follow suit. I also would prefer to see the Euro currency gone.

Elemonator

Can someone explain to me why the sugar beet thing was closed because of the EU? Genuinely curious.

Avatar MIA

skywanderer wrote: »

I'd be in favour of leaving the EU if the Government would keep paying the same level of subsidies as before.

Before what - before joining the EU?

Elemonator

Elemonator wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why the sugar beet thing was closed because of the EU? Genuinely curious.

It was heavily protected from competition within and without the EU by national production quotas, tarrifs on imports, guaranteed prices for growers and refiners with consumers paying the price for it all.

As the protections are being wound down the refiners here took compensation to close down rather than try to compete with sunnier climates. The protections still exist in various forms but the price has equalised.

Leaving the EU would be madness for the 95% of workers who don't work in agriculture.
And I don't know if they would be rushing to recreate the same protections - they might do a New Zealand on it.

Nekarsulm

If you think leaving the EU would reduce paperwork/inspections/official interfearence in your farm, you are sadly misguided.
Not for nothing do Dept.Ag. consider themselves the "Senior Service". All those workers need something to do.

pedigree 6

Where do I sign?
Ah no what would change.
We'd still have the strictest regulations in farming as we are an exporting country.
Grants to farmers probably would go down as more money comes into this country from the eu than goes out.
We wouldn't have milk quotas imposed on us from the eu. But then market access might be a problem who knows.
At least we wouldn't have to worry about moaning European farmers telling farmers to blockade and then if they do talk about it tell them theyre whinging. Leave them at it.
I don't think roads would be affected as they're ppp anyway.

Sam Kade

Nekarsulm wrote: »

If you think leaving the EU would reduce paperwork/inspections/official interfearence in your farm, you are sadly misguided.
Not for nothing do Dept.Ag. consider themselves the "Senior Service". All those workers need something to do.

They actually work?

skywanderer

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Before what - before joining the EU?

I mean from a farming point of view I'd only support Ireland leaving the EU if it meant that farmers maintain the same levels of subsidy, i.e. the Government should replace the money from the CAP we receive. I think the EU should be about free trade, not the way it has become with EU law dictating every aspect of life. There should be free trade but not freedom of movement for people or EU law regulating what we do here. Take it back to the early days of the coal and steel pact.

Avatar MIA

skywanderer wrote: »

I mean from a farming point of view I'd only support Ireland leaving the EU if it meant that farmers maintain the same levels of subsidy, i.e. the Government should replace the money from the CAP we receive. I think the EU should be about free trade, not the way it has become with EU law dictating every aspect of life. There should be free trade but not freedom of movement for people or EU law regulating what we do here. Take it back to the early days of the coal and steel pact.

True free trade would remove any subsidies.

The only primary industry sector that would benefit from leaving the EU is the fisheries industry.

20silkcut

Elemonator wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why the sugar beet thing was closed because of the EU? Genuinely curious.

The EU sugar regime changed in 2005.
Basically they wanted to sell EU made fancy goods to poor countries and buy sugar from them so these poor countries could afford to buy this stuff. Picture peasants in fields with machetes.
Of course Ireland being the good little Europeans we are bent over backwards and sacrificed our entire beet industry. No one gave a ****e at the time cause the Celtic tiger was in full swing and there was loads of compensation money.
Fast forward ten years and here we are with an emaciated tillage sector and land left fallow and importing sugar from the UK.

Atlantic Dawn

It would be insane for farmers to leave the EU, they benefit most from it.

kronnn

skywanderer wrote: »

I mean from a farming point of view I'd only support Ireland leaving the EU if it meant that farmers maintain the same levels of subsidy, i.e. the Government should replace the money from the CAP we receive.

And where would they get the ~1.8 billion euro a year (based on 2013-2014 figures as that was all I could find) that the EU pumps into Irelands agri industry through the CAP alone?

First Up

kronnn wrote:

And where would they get the ~1.8 billion euro a year (based on 2013-2014 figures as that was all I could find) that the EU pumps into Irelands agri industry through the CAP alone?

Tax the rich of course. Same as everything else.

20silkcut

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It would be insane for farmers to leave the EU, they benefit most from it.

Yes but has the last 40 years of EU membership been good to farming in this country??

First Up

20silkcut wrote: »

Yes but has the last 40 years of EU membership been good to farming in this country??

Is that a serious question?

20silkcut

First Up wrote: »

Is that a serious question?

Yes.

Farming very different nowadays. The flight from the land has been quite stark in the last 40 years. Country side has thinned out a lot. Isolation and rural decline as bad as ever it was.
Of course it is a serious question.

Nekarsulm

Was talking to a friend today, basically we are probably the last generation to farm without a second job. Neither of us could see our grandchildren farming. Unless prices rise dramatically, even well established dairy herds are doomed in this end of the country. If the SFP went in the morning, 50% of farmers would be on farm assist right away, add that to the 25% who are currently subsidising the farms with their old age pension and there would be an enormous change by 2025.

First Up

20silkcut wrote:

Farming very different nowadays. The flight from the land has been quite stark in the last 40 years. Country side has thinned out a lot. Isolation and rural decline as bad as ever it was. Of course it is a serious question.

That has been the case in every developed country on the planet. Are you blaming the EU for something specific?

Avatar MIA

20silkcut wrote: »

Yes.

Farming very different nowadays. The flight from the land has been quite stark in the last 40 years. Country side has thinned out a lot. Isolation and rural decline as bad as ever it was.
Of course it is a serious question.

Ireland would look a lot more different if it weren't for the EU. Agriculture would be more important relatively speaking because Ireland as a whole would not be as well developed.

Farming is more important in developing countries, but very few would think that's a good thing, even those working in agriculture in developing countries.

patsy_mccabe

We should take a long hard look at where we are now in Europe compared to where we were. We were once the most politically unstable region on the planet. We fought two terrible world wars after all. Look st Europe now. We are all free to travel and work wherever we like now.

20silkcut

First Up wrote: »

That has been the case in every developed country on the planet. Are you blaming the EU for something specific?

No just saying pointing out that farming has pretty much declined with or without the EU . In some ways EU membership has sped up this process in other ways it has slowed it down . Many farms are on EU subsidised life support for years . That is not healthy and inflates land price and leads to many farmers leading unproductive unedifying lifestyles toughing it out on unproductive farming activities that make no economic sense.
The most frustrating aspect of EU membership is the lack of control at national level.
The way in which the dept et al can ram all sorts of sh1te down our throats and blame it on the EU.
Personally there is something about the enthusiasm for all things EU in this country that is a little unsettling. It is being starkly highlighted with the brexit debate in the Uk contrasting sharply with our blind faith in everything EU.
It is disturbing to see our Taoiseach canvassing over there in a foreign constituency.
We questioned our position in the EU with Lisbon 1 in 2008 but how quickly we have got back in our box.

Username John

20silkcut wrote: »

No just saying pointing out that farming has pretty much declined with or without the EU . In some ways EU membership has sped up this process in other ways it has slowed it down . Many farms are on EU subsidised life support for years . That is not healthy and inflates land price and leads to many farmers leading unproductive unedifying lifestyles toughing it out on unproductive farming activities that make no economic sense.
The most frustrating aspect of EU membership is the lack of control at national level.
The way in which the dept et al can ram all sorts of sh1te down our throats and blame it on the EU.
Personally there is something about the enthusiasm for all things EU in this country that is a little unsettling. It is being starkly highlighted with the brexit debate in the Uk contrasting sharply with our blind faith in everything EU.
It is disturbing to see our Taoiseach canvassing over there in a foreign constituency.
We questioned our position in the EU with Lisbon 1 in 2008 but how quickly we have got back in our box.

I thought that the first 10 or 15 years of EU membership was very good for farming. We joined in 77 was it, and the late 70s and 80s were a boom time for farming due to this...
I might be wrong now, but that's what I thought, so in my head saying the EU was always bad for farming seems wrong...

I don't disagree with you re the SFP situation being a mess - but I'm not sure I share your opinion of the sugar industry, or if things would be immediately better if we left the EU on the Ag side of things. And I definitely don't think it's as easy as that for the non Ag related industries...

First Up

20silkcut wrote:

We questioned our position in the EU with Lisbon 1 in 2008 but how quickly we have got back in our box.

Back in our box aka recognising how the sum of a 28 country alliance is greater than the individual parts.

Lisbon was a technical treaty making some changes to how the EU operates. It was not a referendum on our EU membership. At the time I had no idea what people saw was wrong with it and I wonder how many of those who opposed it then can remember now.

But if you want to argue how Lisbon or any other EU arrangement has been bad for Irish agriculture, the floor is yours.

kowtow

patsy_mccabe wrote:

We should take a long hard look at where we are now in Europe compared to where we were. We were once the most politically unstable region on the planet. We fought two terrible world wars after all. Look st Europe now. We are all free to travel and work wherever we like now.

There were pretty big gaps between the wars ... and we've only had 65 years of peace if you ignore bosnia, , Ukraine etc.... the claim that the EU has somehow caused an end to war whike simultaneously interfering in ukraine and planning for its own army strikes me as the most puffed up and dangerous of them all.

Most likely the relative peace of the last half century is a function of improving health and the time it takes for two generations to forget the last war.

Of which my generation is the 2nd.

Waffletraktor

Username John wrote: »

I thought that the first 10 or 15 years of EU membership was very good for farming. We joined in 77 was it, and the late 70s and 80s were a boom time for farming due to this...
I might be wrong now, both at what's I thought, so in my head saying the EU was always bad for farming seems wrong...

I don't disagree with you re the SFP situation being a mess - but I'm not sure I share your opinion of the sugar industry, or if things would be immediately better if we left the EU on the Ag side of things. And I definitely don't think it's as easy as that for the non Ag related industries...

One of the guys here speaking about his brothers/family farm would say until the early 90s you couldnt not make money... But overproduction changed this.

As for sfp we are heading into something not in the farmers vocabulary as there has never been a time produce was so plentiful and relatively cheap. We are now heading into a time of not farming with foot to the floor but more so in a environmental way aiming for 75 not 100% with wildlife habitat boundary leagally enforced by the far headland.

First Up

kowtow wrote:

There were pretty big gaps between the wars ...

Twenty-one years - just long enough for families to lose their fathers in one and their sons in the next.

kowtow

First Up wrote:

Twenty-one years - just long enough for families to lose their fathers in one and their sons in the next.

Sorry my post was unclear... I meant the gaps between many of the previous wars...

_Brian

The country as a whole is a net beneficiary of money from the EU, I can't for a long, long time imagine a scenario where a referendum would be passed.

Be interesting to see how Uk gets in if they leave but I can't see the Germand or French going out of their way to make life outside the EU easy for the Brits, last thing they would want is for leaving to seem a big success.

First Up

_Brian wrote:

The country as a whole is a net beneficiary of money from the EU, I can't for a long, long time imagine a scenario where a referendum would be passed.

We have got a lot more than money from being in the EU.

_Brian

First Up wrote: »

We have got a lot more than money from being in the EU.

Yea but that's the big headline right there.

Nekarsulm

First Up wrote: »

We have got a lot more than money from being in the EU.

Well to a degree this is why a percentage of Irish people are broadly speaking, pro European. The social change forced through by membership was the most radical this state experienced in fifty years.
Without the EEC, do you think your wife would be allowed continue working after she married? What about all the equality legislation?
People despairing of the "gombeen man" culture and restrictive society ruled by petty tyrants and religious institutions seized the chance to enact change, and embraced it. The European funds were a bonus. We hear so much about our growth of infrastructure etc. in the last decades, "ahead of European growth", but it's all PR spin. The road and tram and other infrastructure here was 100 years behind other European countries anyway. It would be hard not to exceed their growth rate.
Hop on a train in Holland and look at the network around you. Their period of fast expansion was over eighty years before we got started.

Mac Taylor

First Up wrote: »

We have got a lot more than money from being in the EU.

Not sure that's quite right. Remember reading an article a few years ago that when our fishing rights that we gave up were valued we actually contributed far more into the pot that we got out.

My other question similar to one posed by a politician a few years ago. Are we closer to Berlin or Boston or even london? (She didn't mention london:D) I'm Irish do I see myself as European though? Can't say I do. Language, culturally etc we are closer to the uk.

What I can't answer though is whether we would be better in or out?

Base price

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Well to a degree this is why a percentage of Irish people are broadly speaking, pro European. The social change forced through by membership was the most radical this state experienced in fifty years.
Without the EEC, do you think your wife would be allowed continue working after she married? What about all the equality legislation?
People despairing of the "gombeen man" culture and restrictive society ruled by petty tyrants and religious institutions seized the chance to enact change, and embraced it. The European funds were a bonus. We hear so much about our growth of infrastructure etc. in the last decades, "ahead of European growth", but it's all PR spin. The road and tram and other infrastructure here was 100 years behind other European countries anyway. It would be hard not to exceed their growth rate.
Hop on a train in Holland and look at the network around you. Their period of fast expansion was over eighty years before we got started.

Without the EEC, do you think your wife would be allowed continue working after she married?
TBH I think that issue was well put to bed prior to 1973.

Base price

_Brian wrote: »

The country as a whole is a net beneficiary of money from the EU, I can't for a long, long time imagine a scenario where a referendum would be passed.

Be interesting to see how Uk gets in if they leave but I can't see the Germand or French going out of their way to make life outside the EU easy for the Brits, last thing they would want is for leaving to seem a big success.

DOH!

Nekarsulm

Base price wrote: »

Without the EEC, do you think your wife would be allowed continue working after she married?
TBH I think that issue was well put to bed prior to 1973.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/civil-service-marriage-bar-women-want-pensions-back-1.616350

First Up

Mac Taylor wrote:

Not sure that's quite right. Remember reading an article a few years ago that when our fishing rights that we gave up were valued we actually contributed far more into the pot that we got out.

Do you think the major companies, advanced technologies and highly skilled jobs would be here if we were outside the EU?

Our EU membership - as part of an overall commitment to global commerce - transformed us from a post-colonial agricultural backwater into one of the most advanced countries on the planet.

kowtow

First Up wrote:

Do you think the major companies, advanced technologies and highly skilled jobs would be here if we were outside the EU?

A lot of them would be.

Like India, Mauritius, Sri Lanka we had a highly educated population long before the EU came along let alone the Euro.

It took the Internet, and the connectivity which went with it, to make them available to the world as call centres and software teams.

The eu is part of the picture, but nothing like the driving force we like to give it credit for.

AnthonyCny

What happens when all these technology companies eventually leave, and they will. We will be left with no natural resources because we've sold the lot of them

First Up

AnthonyCny wrote: »

What happens when all these technology companies eventually leave, and they will. We will be left with no natural resources because we've sold the lot of them

The only real risk of them leaving is if we leave the EU. These companies have put down deep roots here - links to Universities for research and development, availability of skilled staff, availability of sub suppliers, English speaking, access to markets. Far from leaving, some of the biggest are making huge expansions here.

Of course some might move - mobile investment is by definition mobile - but we continue to punch well above our weight (and size) in attracting the best and brightest new industries.

But if they were to leave, we would have the same natural resources we always did - remember the good old days when we made furniture and shoes from native materials and exported live cattle (and live people)? They were great times alright.

_Brian

Base price wrote: »

DOH!

??
But this is a fact, ever since money started to flow, year on year we have gotten more money than we contributed. I think on this point alone the country would vote to stay in the eu. But trade is also a big deal, multinational companies here Intel, HP etc would need too move to manufacture within the eu, they would be a huge loss.

Big thing in the UK is that they are major contributors to the EU, after rebates they chip in ~€250m a week. The leave side are using this to leverage a huge support for leaving and keeping this money. Now, I'd like to see accurate trade figures that might be lost if they were no longer a member.

freedominacup

First Up wrote: »

20silkcut wrote:

We questioned our position in the EU with Lisbon 1 in 2008 but how quickly we have got back in our box.

Back in our box aka recognising how the sum of a 28 country alliance is greater than the individual parts.

Lisbon was a technical treaty making some changes to how the EU operates. It was not a referendum on our EU membership. At the time I had no idea what people saw was wrong with it and I wonder how many of those who opposed it then can remember now.

But if you want to argue how Lisbon or any other EU arrangement has been bad for Irish agriculture, the floor is yours.

I was opposed to it. It was far more than a few technical changes to how the EU is run. It concentrated a lot more power in the commission's hands without making the commission/commissioners in any way accountable to the electorate. I'd have no problem with more power for the commission provided it's members were drawn from and responsible to the EU parliment. As it was set out I voted against it twice and I'm a fairly rare breed in that I'm a European federalist.

The Lisbon treaty is bad law created to increase the patronage of national parliaments while at the same time allowing national politicians to distance themselves from uncomfortable descions by pointing towards Brussels and crying "it was the commission what done it" every time they're called out on a bad law.

AnthonyCny

First Up wrote: »

The only real risk of them leaving is if we leave the EU. These companies have put down deep roots here - links to Universities for research and development, availability of skilled staff, availability of sub suppliers, English speaking, access to markets. Far from leaving, some of the biggest are making huge expansions here.

Of course some might move - mobile investment is by definition mobile - but we continue to punch well above our weight (and size) in attracting the best and brightest new industries.

But if they were to leave, we would have the same natural resources we always did - remember the good old days when we made furniture and shoes from native materials and exported live cattle (and live people)? They were great times alright.

We don't have any other natural resources at all?

freedominacup

AnthonyCny wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

The only real risk of them leaving is if we leave the EU. These companies have put down deep roots here - links to Universities for research and development, availability of skilled staff, availability of sub suppliers, English speaking, access to markets. Far from leaving, some of the biggest are making huge expansions here.

Of course some might move - mobile investment is by definition mobile - but we continue to punch well above our weight (and size) in attracting the best and brightest new industries.

But if they were to leave, we would have the same natural resources we always did - remember the good old days when we made furniture and shoes from native materials and exported live cattle (and live people)? They were great times alright.

We don't have any other natural resources at all?

None to speak of really. Some possibility of oil or gas fields in our waters but these need oil price to be above $150/barrel to exploit because of the difficulties in extracting it. We do have a fisheries resource but where would a newly "free" Irish government get the money needed to equip a navy/coast guard to patrol millions of square miles of the N Atlantic to protect it?