Speed Ramps In Managed Development

andekwarhola

Hi all,

Hoping somebody could give advice - especially if there are people currently serving as directors on a management company - on having speed ramps installed in a managed development?

The management company in question has control over common areas. The company is solvent and has a board of resident directors. The developer is still in situ (will be handing over to the MC in the near future) but does not currently sit on the board.

We've proof from a number of residents (two kids knocked down, thankfully not fatally) of the need for traffic calming.

The ramps in question are not the brick ones, but the rubber ones.

Would be great to have an idea on the following:

• Do the directors/MC have the legal power to install ramps?
  
  
• Is the developer's consent required?
  
  
• Is planning permission required from the local authority?
  
  
• Do the board require the explicit consent of the resident owners?
  

We will be making official/legal consultations about this so don't worry, I'm only looking for anecdotal or informal views/advice.

Thanks all.

Paulw

Is the development gates or open?

If open, then it is considered a public road, so it can only be done by the council. Will the council do it? Highly unlikely, unless there have been accidents, reports to Gardai and also you get your local councillors onboard.

If it is gated, then yes, the directors can consider it.

Ramps must meet specific legal guidelines. Not hard to find and almost all ramps comply anyway.

Do the directors need approval at an AGM? No. They are acting in the best interest of the development, so they can just get it done.

We did this last year. Our development has a gate, so not public access. We installed a ramp because cars were travelling too fast within the gate and some parents had complained. Since installation of the ramp, there have been no complaints and cars drive slower.

This is not legal advice, just what we have been through.

andekwarhola

The development is open unfortunately.

We are more than willing to pay for the ramps and any associated costs ourselves and we have the money so maybe that would make it easier to get permission? The roads in question are not main roads.

Thanks for your help.

wokingvoter

We are an ungated open estate too and we were turned down flat.
Even the ordinary Tarmac ramps cost the LA €16000 each.

Parents keeping their kids off the road would be a far quicker solution and much less additional wear and tear to residents car suspensions.

Were I an owner in the complex I would be strongly objecting to speed ramps and I'd imagine there would be plenty of support for such a stance.

Gumbo

As the estate is managed the builder or a builder of your choice can insert the Ramps. Depending on location, they will still have to be placed and constructed in accordance with the LA's code of practice.

You can talk to the roads dept of your LA and ask them to send you their ramp standards detail. This should allow for accurate costings of installation.

You do not need planning permission or building control approval.

andekwarhola

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

Parents keeping their kids off the road would be a far quicker solution and much less additional wear and tear to residents car suspensions.

Were I an owner in the complex I would be strongly objecting to speed ramps and I'd imagine there would be plenty of support for such a stance.

Only really interested in a discussion as outlined in the OP, thanks.

Marcusm

Paulw wrote: »

Is the development gates or open?

If open, then it is considered a public road, so it can only be done by the council. Will the council do it? Highly unlikely, unless there have been accidents, reports to Gardai and also you get your local councillors onboard.

If it is gated, then yes, the directors can consider it.

Ramps must meet specific legal guidelines. Not hard to find and almost all ramps comply anyway.

Do the directors need approval at an AGM? No. They are acting in the best interest of the development, so they can just get it done.

We did this last year. Our development has a gate, so not public access. We installed a ramp because cars were travelling too fast within the gate and some parents had complained. Since installation of the ramp, there have been no complaints and cars drive slower.

This is not legal advice, just what we have been through.

It's only a "public road" once taken in charge by the council. I agree that it is likely to be a "public place" for the purposes of the Roads Acts and Road Traffic Acts but it is not a "public road" unless the council is responsible for its maintenance.

athtrasna

andekwarhola wrote: »

Some of the owners could do with not driving like **** on a rally trail, but I digress.

Only really interested in a discussion as outlined in the OP, thanks.

Mod note

Please choose your language carefully and leave the moderation to the mods. Thanks

maximum12

Policy will depend on which local authority but I know in Dublin-fingal the policy is not to put ramps in housing estates unless it is a through road / main road. They will agree to put up signs about children playing.

mfceiling

Ours is open but is not a through road. There were a few strongly worded letters sent to council and management company. Ramps were installed after 6 months of badgering.

Love this nonsense of keeping kids indoors. On our green there could be up to 40 kids kicking ball or doing gymnastics etc...They're not wild animals ffs...kids play outside...We all did it.

Mrs OBumble

mfceiling wrote: »

Love this nonsense of keeping kids indoors. On our green there could be up to 40 kids kicking ball or doing gymnastics etc...They're not wild animals ffs...kids play outside...We all did it.

No one said to keep them indoors.

Just to teach them to keep off the road. The same way they have to treat any other road in the country.



OP, have you actually consulted a traffic engineer for an unbiased look at the various safety options available? How do you know that ramps are the best solution for your problem? Do you understand what other risks / consequences might they have?

Also, if you have a problem with residents driving dangerously - have you reported this to the guards?

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

Ours is open but is not a through road. There were a few strongly worded letters sent to council and management company. Ramps were installed after 6 months of badgering.

Love this nonsense of keeping kids indoors. On our green there could be up to 40 kids kicking ball or doing gymnastics etc...They're not wild animals ffs...kids play outside...We all did it.

Where did I say keep kids indoors? Kids shouldn't be playing on a road simple as that and should be taught how to cross the road correctly. Why should car owners have to put up with increased suspension wear because parents won't keep their kids under control.

maximum12

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

Why should car owners have to put up with increased suspension wear because parents won't keep their kids under control.

Because a) two kids have been knocked down on the road, b) the OP has stated they witness cars driving at inappropriate speed c) children playing outdoors is natural and healthy and has been done for thousands of years before the invention of cars.

As a driver you do not have priority on the road over pedestrians.

In a housing estate the appropriate speed is that which allows you to stop if a child runs out on to the road. Where there are parked cars that may mean driving at jogging pace.

gaz wac

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Just to teach them to keep off the road. The same way they have to treat any other road in the country.

so where are they meant to cycle their bikes, flickers etc ?

Gumbo

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

Parents keeping their kids off the road would be a far quicker solution and much less additional wear and tear to residents car suspensions.

Were I an owner in the complex I would be strongly objecting to speed ramps and I'd imagine there would be plenty of support for such a stance.

Where will kids cycle? play squares? Play on the volley? Play kerbs? Have fun?
It's not a main road were talking about, kids playing on the road is natural. If you or me as a driver doesn't like that, we move to another estate.

Kids playing was around before the car.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Where will kids cycle? play squares? Play on the volley? Play kerbs? Have fun?
.

I don't know what any of them games are bar cycling which they should be able to do in conduction with traffic. I grew up in the county and we played in the garden, around the house or in the fields even the suggestion of playing on the road would get you in trouble bar cycling which we all did with fast moving traffic no problem by being careful and staying out of the way of cars.

Roads (including in estates) are for cars, bikes and other traffic they aren't play grounds and there should be absolutely no playing allowed on them.

markpb

Ivy Late Millionaire wrote:

I grew up in the county and we played in the garden, around the house or in the fields even the suggestion of playing on the road would get you in trouble bar cycling which we all did with fast moving traffic no problem by being careful and staying out of the way of cars.

If you grew up in the country, you probably had a decent sized garden or nearby field where you could safely play. That can't be said for children growing up in a city.

A road in the country is generally just that - a (through) road, not a street inside a housing estate. Drivers inside an estate should always expect children to be nearby so speed should be low. Drivers on a main road would not generally expect children so speeds are higher.

You can't compare your experiences growing up with what's being discussed in this thread - they're totally different.

Dr.Rieux

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

I don't know what any of them games are bar cycling which they should be able to do in conduction with traffic. I grew up in the county and we played in the garden, around the house or in the fields even the suggestion of playing on the road would get you in trouble bar cycling which we all did with fast moving traffic no problem by being careful and staying out of the way of cars.

Roads (including in estates) are for cars, bikes and other traffic they aren't play grounds and there should be absolutely no playing allowed on them.

Kids chase footballs, footballs don't always stay on the greens in housing estates. People shouldn't be doing speeds in a housing estate that could potentially kill a child who steps out. I find it hard to believe that people would disagree with that.

What speed would you drive through a housing estate at? If you hit a child and killed them would you just tell their parents tough, they should've been on the green?

jjpep

The more i read threads like this, the faster i want self driving cars to come onstream. People in general can't be trusted with cars.

andekwarhola

Do people honestly think we'd be sinking thousands of euro of our hard collected money on this if grown adults could be trusted to drive slowly for the maximum 15-20 seconds it takes to leave the development/get to their house?

Kids are kids and they'll exercise poor judgement when playing chasing or following balls, no matter how much you teach them road safety.

These are not main roads but residential roads in the development (which is townhouses, no front gardens).

Plus even if some residents are careless with their kids, I'm not sure as directors, we'll 'teach them a lesson' and prioritize car rights over their kids' lives.

andekwarhola

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Also, if you have a problem with residents driving dangerously - have you reported this to the guards?

Define dangerous driving in this context and if you have a case for the gardai.

It's a busy development with lots of kids and poor visibility (lots of street parking).

You don't have to be doing 100k an hour to be dangerous.

If people all drove really slowly for the short time they're actually in the place, it wouldn't be an issue.

L1011

wokingvoter wrote: »

Even the ordinary Tarmac ramps cost the LA €16000 each.

And if installed with the stupid fake brick patterning on top, shatter in heavy frost and need replacement. Frequently.

Look at horizontal displacement calming instead - it is maintenance free, quieter (no brake, clomp, accelerate cycle) and doesn't damage cars unlike ramps.

Stepping Stone

You should probably employ a traffic engineer.
Dangerous drivers will be dangerous drivers regardless of the safety equipment that you install, so teaching kids road safety isn't a bad idea.

I live in an estate with speed bunps and generally sensible parents. There is one family where the kid is constantly running out blindly into the road and generally doing dangerous stuff. Daddy is the worst of drivers too, fast, aggressive, reckless...he reversed at speed around a corner last week and missed his daughter on her bike by inches. He didn't take any notice, just shot off at speed, racing from one speed bump to the next. Most would never manage to get to second gear by the way.

There is another family who leave their toddler out to be looked after by his older silbings (4 & 6). He probably will end up injured cos he just toddles out in front of cars.

Of the 50 or so other kids, they get off the road when cars approach, they are really safe (as in visible so you can keep an eye on them).

Long story short, look at all options. Dicks will be dicks, so do what you can.

ongarboy

I also see both sides where I live. The black and amber metal (rubber?) type ramps were installed recently and I think they serve a good purpose as some motorists were driving too bloody fast. No one is in too much of a hurry that the extremely minor inconvenience of intermittently slowing down to less than 10 kph briefly at each ramp is too much of an issue, therefore I don't understand the objection by some. It makes the roads safer for all users, particularly at junctions and blindspots.

However, I also see some kids using the roads as their play space. I'm not talking about the kids whose ball accidentally strays onto the roads. I've seen kids sit down on the roads with their dolls, tea sets, pieces of chalk to draw on the road and they won't move as you approach. Parents of course are no where to be seen. Our area is not deprived of green spaces either so there are plenty of safe places to play.

A bit of responsibility and common sense on both sides is required.

I'm not sure why OP doesn't like the non concrete ramps. Theyve been in our area over a year now and I don't see any wear and tear on them so far.

Maireadio

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

Why should car owners have to put up with increased suspension wear because parents won't keep their kids under control.

Christ on a bike.

I think people would be happier to have the children of the estate safe (and understand that children can sometimes exercise poor judgement) than be worried about the wear and tear of an inanimate object. Truly baffling priorities to be more concerned about a car.

Children's safety > Car wear and tear

allibastor

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

Parents keeping their kids off the road would be a far quicker solution and much less additional wear and tear to residents car suspensions.

Were I an owner in the complex I would be strongly objecting to speed ramps and I'd imagine there would be plenty of support for such a stance.

I really hope you are taking the piss?

I have seen an incident where a 2 years old went out on the road and some asshole was speeding, very nearly killed the child only for another pedestrian pulled her out of the way.
It is a housing estate and as such should be regulated by the guards if a public road, but this is NEVER the case. they can check for tax for cars parked on footpaths, but it seems they cant control speed.

allibastor

allibastor wrote: »

I have seen an incident where a 2 years old went out on the road

The parent or guardian who allowed their 2 year old get out on the road is the asshole here.

I stand by everything I've said in this thread, I hate speed ramps, they are bad for a cars suspension and children should not be on the road its not a playground.

andekwarhola

Thanks for the worthwhile input - most of you. Appreciated.

Will contact the local authority today.

JustAThought

Management company & members will be liable for upkeep of ramps & errection of signage - an ongoing black hole. Remember all the ramp & footpath damage over the last big freeze - cracks, water freezes & expands, ramp damaged, in constant use - errodes more & more.etc If not upkept or signed then the company & members will be liable when an accident arises - pedestrian, cycalist, motorbiker, child on flickr, car damages/injures themselv on it. Child on flickr orthodontics - most common treated injury - e60k over lifetime replacement every 8-10 years excluding the usual pain & trauma suffering etc. Little kid up the road here - wobbled & fell - badly fractured leg - God knows what that will cost . Ongoing nightmare, not to mention increase in insurance premiums or worse, as can hsppen & has happened to many - refusal to re-insure & all the massive problems that go with that - playground shut, etc. Belueve me, its far easier to make a formal complaint about the gaurds regusal to deal with dangerous drivers if that is the case.
In our estate the children running & pushing each other in fromt if cars & cycling out from between parked cars onto the feeder roundabout & roads servicing 300+ cars is a nightmare & tragedy waiting to happen. It got so out if hand thst not only did the local builder hand in letters to each house but the gaurds also did. We already have one child in a wheelchair. Children are children & will play but we teach our children basic road safety too. Roads are dangerous. We have the police to report & request prosecution of drink driving & dangerous car driving to. Use this system if basic man-to-man isn't working for the one or two who won't drive under the limit. But dosn't persecute those who do behave for the actions of others.

Houses with ramps outside typically have more noise, and typically ( like naff plastic windows & ESB boxes) also sell for less. Not a great reward for homeowners in any regard. Get the police, men of the estate involved - but don't open a bottomless pit of endless overheads, risks & costs for the homeowners - many families are struggling financially enough.

allibastor

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

The parent or guardian who allowed their 2 year old get out on the road is the asshole here.

I stand by everything I've said in this thread, I hate speed ramps, they are bad for a cars suspension and children should not be on the road its not a playground.

You must not have kids, they can actually get away from you.

And in an estate, yes a road is often used as a playground. They are kids living in an estate, in many cases with no common green area, or one covered with dog crap.

Seriously, I would prefer to have to replace my cars tyres every 6 months if that is what it costs to not kill a child, or have one killed near where I live.

allibastor

JustAThought wrote: »

Management company & members will be liable for upkeep of ramps & errection of signage - an ongoing black hole. Remember all the ramp & footpath damage over the last big freeze - cracks, water freezes & expands, ramp damaged, in constant use - errodes more & more.etc If not upkept or signed then the company & members will be liable when an accident arises - pedestrian, cycalist, motorbiker, child on flickr, car damages/injures themselv on it. Child on flickr orthodontics - most common treated injury - e60k over lifetime replacement every 8-10 years excluding the usual pain & trauma suffering etc. Little kid up the road here - wobbled & fell - badly fractured leg - God knows what that will cost . Ongoing nightmare, not to mention increase in insurance premiums or worse, as can hsppen & has happened to many - refusal to re-insure & all the massive problems that go with that - playground shut, etc. Belueve me, its far easier to make a formal complaint about the gaurds regusal to deal with dangerous drivers if that is the case.
In our estate the children running & pushing each other in fromt if cars & cycling out from between parked cars onto the feeder roundabout & roads servicing 300+ cars is a nightmare & tragedy waiting to happen. It got so out if hand thst not only did the local builder hand in letters to each house but the gaurds also did. We already have one child in a wheelchair. Children are children & will play but we teach our children basic road safety too. Roads are dangerous. We have the police to report & request prosecution of drink driving & dangerous car driving to. Use this system if basic man-to-man isn't working for the one or two who won't drive under the limit. But dosn't persecute those who do behave for the actions of others.

Houses with ramps outside typically have more noise, and typically ( like naff plastic windows & ESB boxes) also sell for less. Not a great reward for homeowners in any regard. Get the police, men of the estate involved - but don't open a bottomless pit of endless overheads, risks & costs for the homeowners - many families are struggling financially enough.

Not sure, but any time i have reported to the guards over the following:

Young drivers with no tax or insurance
Young drivers driving while drinking, literally cans in hand
Speeding in a small estate
Cars actually racing 2 abreast


Do you know what was done.

Not a Fúcking thing.

hof1982

Wow, can't believe some of the attitudes here. I have to admit I am biased as a parent of children and living in an estate. This is a big issue where we live. Children for the most part are very good and tend not to play on the road in our estate, but with children being children there is always the chance that they will make a mistake - 9 times out of 10 they will stop look and listen as shown, but maybe in 1 in 10 they will go without due care to chase a ball or for another reason, regardless of how well educated they might be about the dangers of the road. As drivers we are educated to always expect the unexpected, and in estates where there are children playing there will always be a small chance that a child will make a mistake.

In our estate the kids play on greens but also on the footpaths...and what I see every day is drivers travelling often at 30kph even when they can see kids on the footpath, which is not speeding according to the letter of the law...but what chance does a child have if they slip or trip accidentally off the footpath or green in front of a car travelling at that speed? There has to be responsibility on both sides, parents should be educating their children, which to be fair most do, but drivers also have to realise that kids will be kids and can make a mistake and that just because the speed limit may be 30kph it doesn't mean its appropriate for the circumstances.

John_Rambo

Meilani Most Drain wrote: »

The parent or guardian who allowed their 2 year old get out on the road is the asshole here.

I stand by everything I've said in this thread, I hate speed ramps, they are bad for a cars suspension and children should not be on the road its not a playground.

Ramps are bad for cars and the environment.

When driven over at incorrect speeds by fools.

They're a necessary evil in areas of population used for rat runs or ill time keepers that think they're commute is more important than their neighbours lives.

This is basic driving skills, mechanical and road awareness; Adjust your speed to minimal. Don't speed up, brake, speed up, brake etc. That's just silly. Maintain a very slow speed in a suitable gear and gently cruise over the ramps without adjusting speed. This is good for the environment, good for kids, good for bushings, tyres and suspension. Driving on to a ramp whilst braking is worse than driving hard over a ramp.

Suspension and pneumatic tyres are there for a reason, don't tax them and they won't break. If we all had snooker table roads we'd be driving cars with fork lift style suspension.

If you feel this is slowing your progress get up earlier. If your driving ability or your cars ability can't hack ramps consider parking outside the ramped estate. That's doing yourself and everyone else a favour.

Simple solutions.

JustAThought

And of course not to mention the idiots that swerve to the kerb side or middle of ramps to avoid hitting/using them - an extra idiot hazard.

We all played on the roads when we grew up but the big difference was that most houses had only one car & a front garden & driveway where it was parked - not on the road. Fathers went out to work at 8 or so & the play-roads were clear with no 2nd family parked cars obscuring views on the road & footpath so it was a lot easier to spot oncoming cars, which were far less frequent in estates & not the tanks/peoplecarriers driven today. The daily second car runabout was rare & the eststes roads were just less busy.
Estate roads are no longer the safe rosy havens they were 30 years ago & are not safe to let kids freely feck about on. You wouldn't leave your best china on the side of the footpath & hope noone drove over it or clipped it taking a blind bend. Even 20mph can kill or maim. Why risk it with your children.

JustAThought

allibastor wrote: »

Not sure, but any time i have reported to the guards over the following:

Young drivers with no tax or insurance
Young drivers driving while drinking, literally cans in hand
Speeding in a small estate
Cars actually racing 2 abreast


Do you know what was done.

Not a Fúcking thing.

Therein lies the whole problem - did you go down to make a complaint? I guess not. Get the reg of the cars & addresses if they are living in the estate, Go down to the station, & make a formal complaint. If they palm you off make it clear you want it looked into & addressed - get the gaurd who is refusing to de with it Tag /Gaurd number ( on his shoulder) & ask to speak to the officer in charge & get his name & either request a meeting with him/her & make it clear you will wait or ask to schedule an appointment. If that dosn't get what you want say you will ask do you have to go to the area superintendent. There is Usually CCTV everywhere so check & see if there was in the area - either way the gaurds should not be let off for that kind of don't give a **** attitude ; nor should the homeowners be put to costs of tens of thousands over a lifetime because lazy C *****$ won't bother doing their jobs & protect law abiding people & the local scum take advantage of this. It just needs once for the gaurds to handle it seriously rather that creating a storm of trouble, problems, noise inteusion & lifelong costs for often struggling homeowners. Im sick of hardworking lawabiding people being put to time & trouble over f***s who don't bother doing the minimum of their jobs, or simply obey the minimum expected from society . Sort them out using the gaurds & if ghe gaurds are too lazy or not bothered sort them out. Far easier & better for everyone in the long run.

L1011

hof1982 wrote: »

In our estate the kids play on greens but also on the footpaths...and what I see every day is drivers travelling often at 30kph even when they can see kids on the footpath, which is not speeding according to the letter of the law...but what chance does a child have if they slip or trip accidentally off the footpath or green in front of a car travelling at that speed? There has to be responsibility on both sides, parents should be educating their children, which to be fair most do, but drivers also have to realise that kids will be kids and can make a mistake and that just because the speed limit may be 30kph it doesn't mean its appropriate for the circumstances.

The limit in most estates is 50km/h. Traffic calming is meant to (hahahahahahahahah....) be appropriate to the limit - something designed for a 50km/h limit will not slow drivers much below 30.

pablo128

allibastor wrote: »

Seriously, I would prefer to have to replace my cars tyres every 6 months if that is what it costs to not kill a child, or have one killed near where I live.

Tyres are not the problem. It's the wishbones, drop links, anti-roll bar bushes, springs, shock absorbers, suspension mountings, wheel bearings, steering rack bushes, track rods and track rod ends which get hammered on speed ramps.

How about a railings around the green which would help prevent stray footballs and kids from going out on the roads?