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Cheating in Garnerville: A shameful disgrace (***Read Mod note in first post!***)

  • 14-06-2016 9:37am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 Goonerdee


    Moderator note: These posts were moved from the "1509 Campaign" thread into a new thread given the interest surrounding the scandal. Please keep discussion of this topic respectful and remember to observe the privacy of those involved. There will be a zero tolerance policy to those either becoming abusive, or for attempting to 'name and shame'. Thank you for your cooperation. -Shield.

    http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/50-northern-ireland-police-trainees-in-exam-cheating-scandal-34798191.html

    Am I the only one who gets angry and frustrated when I read stories about those who get the chance to do the job I've always wanted throwing it all away (or nearly do) because they don't want to put the hard work into it.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 248 ✭✭ D4z


    Goonerdee wrote: »
    http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/50-northern-ireland-police-trainees-in-exam-cheating-scandal-34798191.html

    Am I the only one who gets angry and frustrated when I read stories about those who get the chance to do the job I've always wanted throwing it all away (or nearly do) because they don't want to put the hard work into it.

    It was in the Sunday life but didn't say much detail. I assume this will hold us up on getting into GV as the two squads have been back squaded. That and the previous campaign, I can't imagine there will be much room left?

    GV holds 5 squads st one time?


  • Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭ PCWannabe


    Goonerdee wrote: »
    http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/50-northern-ireland-police-trainees-in-exam-cheating-scandal-34798191.html

    Am I the only one who gets angry and frustrated when I read stories about those who get the chance to do the job I've always wanted throwing it all away (or nearly do) because they don't want to put the hard work into it.

    Angers me as well. At the end of the day you should be an honest and trustworthy person especially as a police officer. I wouldn't be happy working on the ground with someone who made minimal effort and didn't revise. The PSNI should have been changing the questions to make absolutely sure cheating couldn't occur but at the same time candidates should be trust worthy. I understand why they haven't been given the boot due to the cost already involved in training them however they absolutely should be given the boot! People like you and I want this so bad and people are just throwing it away. I can't stand lazy people and that's exactly what these imbiceles are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 504 Johannes_Cabal


    D4z wrote: »
    It was in the Sunday life but didn't say much detail. I assume this will hold us up on getting into GV as the two squads have been back squaded. That and the previous campaign, I can't imagine there will be much room left?

    GV holds 5 squads st one time?


    It's shocking when you consider that the PSNI place a huge emphasis on integrity.

    If those involved would cheat in order to pass an exam what else would they be willing to.do in order to make life easier for themselves.

    This kind of behaviour also does nothing for the public image of the PSNI and considering a portion of the community already do not trust police officers I can imagine this will only reinforce their distrust.

    Not only that to think that if they hadn't have been found out there may possibly have been sub standard officers deployed on the streets because they didn't put the effort into training and opted to cheat instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭ PCWannabe


    It's shocking when you consider that the PSNI place a huge emphasis on integrity.

    If those involved would cheat in order to pass an exam what else would they be willing to.do in order to make life easier for themselves.

    This kind of behaviour also does nothing for the public image of the PSNI and considering a portion of the community already do not trust police officers I can imagine this will only reinforce their distrust.

    Not only that to think that if they hadn't have been found out there may possibly have been sub standard officers deployed on the streets because they didn't put the effort into training and opted to cheat instead.

    Yup. Give them the heave ho and let those who WANT to put the work in in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 504 Johannes_Cabal


    PCWannabe wrote: »
    Yup. Give them the heave ho and let those who WANT to put the work in in.

    Should be sacked and made to repay the training costs.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭ PCWannabe


    Should be sacked and made to repay the training costs.

    Now there's an idea


  • Registered Users Posts: 504 Johannes_Cabal


    PCWannabe wrote: »
    Now there's an idea

    I can imagine this will be a first and final strike for those involved and any further indiscretions with result in dismissal.

    Also it's a bit grim to think that some involved could have been members on here and people we have spoken to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭ PCWannabe


    I can imagine this will be a first and final strike for those involved and any further indiscretions with result in dismissal.

    Also it's a bit grim to think that some involved could have been members on here and people we have spoken to.

    Yeah it's disheartening. Just have to do what is required of us if we get in. I assume a lot will have been very very silly and texted things. No doubt phones will be the first thing ceased


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭✭ Momc82


    I can't believe this! I would love to be going through training right now. A position I would respect and be extremely thankful for. It would appear to be a contempt for the training process. Why els would these students feel that it would be OK to cheat???


  • Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭ Bunsen1burner


    Its disgusting and so unfair to those of us who would work hard to get through those exams. If it was a GCSE exam the students would be thrown out and failed so same should apply here.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 504 Johannes_Cabal


    PCWannabe wrote: »
    Yeah it's disheartening. Just have to do what is required of us if we get in. I assume a lot will have been very very silly and texted things. No doubt phones will be the first thing ceased

    Exactly, it doesn't take much to follow the rules.

    Well done to the whistle blower for coming forward and if it was another recruit I bet going against their mates/colleagues was the hardest decision ever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭ Bunsen1burner


    Could all this be causing the hold up for the latest intake of the 1405 campaign???


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 8,883 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Shield


    No. This only happened last week.
    Could all this be causing the hold up for the latest intake of the 1405 campaign???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 248 ✭✭ D4z


    Could all this be causing the hold up for the latest intake of the 1405 campaign???

    Doubt it, I read that nelson (MLA forgot his surname) said this wasn't brought up in the last policing meeting so it sounds like it has only came to light. He is waiting on a full report.


  • Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭ PCWannabe


    Could all this be causing the hold up for the latest intake of the 1405 campaign???

    Most likely. A squad and a half have been back squadded apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭✭ Momc82


    Is it the final decision to simply back squad?


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭✭✭ Tinfoilcap


    yes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭ networksearch1


    The fact that they have not even been suspended is despicable. They have been back squaded yes,but they should be suspended from further training until the investigation is complete. Following that if found guilty removed from the process altogether. The reason they have not been is due to the money spent so far,but they should be made an example of regardless! The difference in figures from currently serving to what is recommended currently only sits at 82. There are more than 82 ready and wiling people on the merit list as well as the currently progressing 1509 campaign. No doubt this will cause a delay in those good honest people ready and willing to go and train and serve.
    If your reading this and you have been involved in the cheating...YOU ARE A DISCRASE!!!!


  • Posts: 18,752 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Only just heard about this right here.

    Just wondering what way the cheating occured?
    Did someone steal a paper beforehand & pass it around ?
    Or what happened exactly ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 248 ✭✭ D4z


    The fact that they have not even been suspended is despicable. They have been back squaded yes,but they should be suspended from further training until the investigation is complete. Following that if found guilty removed from the process altogether. The reason they have not been is due to the money spent so far,but they should be made an example of regardless! The difference in figures from currently serving to what is recommended currently only sits at 82. There are more than 82 ready and wiling people on the merit list as well as the currently progressing 1509 campaign. No doubt this will cause a delay in those good honest people ready and willing to go and train and serve.
    If your reading this and you have been involved in the cheating...YOU ARE A DISCRASE!!!!

    It will always be easy for people who want the job to condemn the actions like you have done. I hope they learn from their poor judgement and keep their heads down. It seems it was 'a thing to do' from reading the reports on what happened. It also states it has could have went on for years... should we suspend any recruits that passed out within x amount of years?

    If you make it to GV, I hope the trainers aren't as ruthless as you are when you make a mistake.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭✭ dollasign


    The fact that they have not even been suspended is despicable. They have been back squaded yes,but they should be suspended from further training until the investigation is complete. Following that if found guilty removed from the process altogether. The reason they have not been is due to the money spent so far,but they should be made an example of regardless! The difference in figures from currently serving to what is recommended currently only sits at 82. There are more than 82 ready and wiling people on the merit list as well as the currently progressing 1509 campaign. No doubt this will cause a delay in those good honest people ready and willing to go and train and serve.
    If your reading this and you have been involved in the cheating...YOU ARE A DISCRASE!!!!

    Your applying for a job in which the role is to gather facts and your making a judgement on these people knowing none of the facts just reading the title of a headline in the BBC and jumping to conclusions? Your just as bad as Joe public


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 8,883 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Shield


    Please don't include personal remarks in your future posts. Stick to discussing the facts, and your opinion on what happened.

    Thanks,

    -Shield.

    dollasign wrote: »
    Your just as bad as Joe public


  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭ MikeOneJuliet


    I've taken my time before adding my two cents here. I knew I had to think my response over.

    Initially I was annoyed at the report. Why cheat on exams? It's not fair on those of us who worked damn hard to get through GV and put in the time and effort to revise and study. It's not fair to tarnish the reputation of police officers. It's not fair to jeopardise your position when there are hundreds waiting for their call to GV. But after reading some responses on here and elsewhere I started to rethink.

    I know what it's like being in these guys position. You've failed your exam. If you don't pass this re-sit, you are out of the door. No job, no income, a family to support. Who on earth wouldn't take some help if offered it? From what I've heard these guys weren't stealing exam papers, they were simply helping squad mates by sharing questions that they remember from the exam in case they came up again. (Which yes happens often but was stopped when discovered by the powers that be). Technically, yes this is cheating and breaching the confidential agreement they signed when entering GV which states that you are not to share exam questions etc.

    At the end of it, my biggest problem isn't with the officers involved, who through human nature and fear of losing their jobs accepted help from others, it's the exams themselves. Why are there not more questions? Why is there not more done to ensure that the same questions don't come up again?

    I am not condoning what these guys have done, and I do believe they need to be dealt with. I simply empathise with them and the position they were in. Back squadding them by 19 weeks is appropriate given the circumstances and I can ensure you that no one wants to do another 19 weeks in GV if it weren't necessary.

    For those here judging these guys and calling them a disgrace, you will not understand their position until you sit those exams for yourself. Whilst you may be angered, at least try to be considerate and not attack them.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 8,883 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Shield


    I'd take a completely different view.

    I've been there, done that, and passed all exams first time, and what happened here was, in my opinion an absolute disgrace. Those involved should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

    If we are to use the excuse that they cheated because they needed the money, or have families to support, or I]insert excuse here[/I, then it's effectively saying it's ok to cheat if you meet any of these criteria in any other job too. I don't accept these excuses as valid reasons for what happened.

    Yes, if you fail your exam twice, you're out the door, but in all honesty, if you fail any of those exams twice, you deserve to be out the door. It means you either haven't put in the study, or you're simply not cut out to be a police officer. As soon as you start reasoning with yourself that "take some help" doesn't mean "cheated", then you're already on the slippery slope downhill before you've even started in your station.

    Where does it stop? If you make a mistake, do you "take some help" from your senior colleagues to cover up said mistake? Do you "take some help" in the form of a free cup of tea coffee from the local restaurant after a long day? Your ethics and morals are either rock solid in this job, or they're not. You either have your price, or you don't. If you do, then your own internal confirmation bias will eventually justify a convenient excuse that you can live with, and you'll never know whether you'd have made it without cheating in the first place.

    Asking why there aren't more exam questions really is distracting from what happened here, and is a straw man argument at best, which is an entirely separate conversation that could run a thread of its own. What people should take out of this is that a huge number of people cheated on their exams, or were prepared to cheat on their exams, either because they didn't put in the study, or they simply didn't have the required degree of intelligence to absorb what they'd been taught during the previous months.

    To me, that's a shameful disgrace.
    I've taken my time before adding my two cents here. I knew I had to think my response over.

    Initially I was annoyed at the report. Why cheat on exams? It's not fair on those of us who worked damn hard to get through GV and put in the time and effort to revise and study. It's not fair to tarnish the reputation of police officers. It's not fair to jeopardise your position when there are hundreds waiting for their call to GV. But after reading some responses on here and elsewhere I started to rethink.

    I know what it's like being in these guys position. You've failed your exam. If you don't pass this re-sit, you are out of the door. No job, no income, a family to support. Who on earth wouldn't take some help if offered it? From what I've heard these guys weren't stealing exam papers, they were simply helping squad mates by sharing questions that they remember from the exam in case they came up again. (Which yes happens often but was stopped when discovered by the powers that be). Technically, yes this is cheating and breaching the confidential agreement they signed when entering GV which states that you are not to share exam questions etc.

    At the end of it, my biggest problem isn't with the officers involved, who through human nature and fear of losing their jobs accepted help from others, it's the exams themselves. Why are there not more questions? Why is there not more done to ensure that the same questions don't come up again?

    I am not condoning what these guys have done, and I do believe they need to be dealt with. I simply empathise with them and the position they were in. Back squadding them by 19 weeks is appropriate given the circumstances and I can ensure you that no one wants to do another 19 weeks in GV if it weren't necessary.

    For those here judging these guys and calling them a disgrace, you will not understand their position until you sit those exams for yourself. Whilst you may be angered, at least try to be considerate and not attack them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭ MikeOneJuliet


    Shield wrote: »
    I'd take a completely different view.

    I've been there, done that, and passed all exams first time, and what happened here was, in my opinion an absolute disgrace. Those involved should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

    If we are to use the excuse that they cheated because they needed the money, or have families to support, or I]insert excuse here[/I, then it's effectively saying it's ok to cheat if you meet any of these criteria in any other job too. I don't accept these excuses as valid reasons for what happened.

    Yes, if you fail your exam twice, you're out the door, but in all honesty, if you fail any of those exams twice, you deserve to be out the door. It means you either haven't put in the study, or you're simply not cut out to be a police officer. As soon as you start reasoning with yourself that "take some help" doesn't mean "cheated", then you're already on the slippery slope downhill before you've even started in your station.

    Where does it stop? If you make a mistake, do you "take some help" from your senior colleagues to cover up said mistake? Do you "take some help" in the form of a free cup of tea coffee from the local restaurant after a long day? Your ethics and morals are either rock solid in this job, or they're not. You either have your price, or you don't. If you do, then your own internal confirmation bias will eventually justify a convenient excuse that you can live with, and you'll never know whether you'd have made it without cheating in the first place.

    Asking why there aren't more exam questions really is distracting from what happened here, and is a straw man argument at best, which is an entirely separate conversation that could run a thread of its own. What people should take out of this is that a huge number of people cheated on their exams, or were prepared to cheat on their exams, either because they didn't put in the study, or they simply didn't have the required degree of intelligence to absorb what they'd been taught during the previous months.

    To me, that's a shameful disgrace.
    I've taken my time before adding my two cents here. I knew I had to think my response over.

    Initially I was annoyed at the report. Why cheat on exams? It's not fair on those of us who worked damn hard to get through GV and put in the time and effort to revise and study. It's not fair to tarnish the reputation of police officers. It's not fair to jeopardise your position when there are hundreds waiting for their call to GV. But after reading some responses on here and elsewhere I started to rethink.

    I know what it's like being in these guys position. You've failed your exam. If you don't pass this re-sit, you are out of the door. No job, no income, a family to support. Who on earth wouldn't take some help if offered it? From what I've heard these guys weren't stealing exam papers, they were simply helping squad mates by sharing questions that they remember from the exam in case they came up again. (Which yes happens often but was stopped when discovered by the powers that be). Technically, yes this is cheating and breaching the confidential agreement they signed when entering GV which states that you are not to share exam questions etc.

    At the end of it, my biggest problem isn't with the officers involved, who through human nature and fear of losing their jobs accepted help from others, it's the exams themselves. Why are there not more questions? Why is there not more done to ensure that the same questions don't come up again?

    I am not condoning what these guys have done, and I do believe they need to be dealt with. I simply empathise with them and the position they were in. Back squadding them by 19 weeks is appropriate given the circumstances and I can ensure you that no one wants to do another 19 weeks in GV if it weren't necessary.

    For those here judging these guys and calling them a disgrace, you will not understand their position until you sit those exams for yourself. Whilst you may be angered, at least try to be considerate and not attack them.

    Whilst I don't disagree with you I don't think it's fair to say that failing exams means you don't deserve the job. Some people like myself are not academically tuned and struggle with written exams. I excelled in practicals but struggled with my exams. Does that mean I'm a bad peeler because I struggle with it? Does it make me any less able to perform my duties because I'm not 'book smart?' - I know this is digressing from the main issue and like you said could easily form a long winding thread of its own.

    In terms of what you said in relation to excuses, you are right. There is no excuse to cheat. But are we not all human? Are we not prone to mistakes and imperfections? Does it mean that because we cut corners on an exam we are prepared to take bribes or take liberties on the job? I'm just playing devils advocate here now to see what people think. Of course police officers need to be beyond reproach


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 8,883 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Shield


    I excelled in practicals but struggled with my exams. Does that mean I'm a bad peeler because I struggle with it? Does it make me any less able to perform my duties because I'm not 'book smart?'
    Your duties require you to be 'book smart', to an extent. This is why there isn't a passing mark of 100%. There's room in all the exams for mistakes. If you're not 'book smart', you're in a college to get 'book smart', or at least to get smart enough to know where your POA comes from, etc.
    But are we not all human? Are we not prone to mistakes and imperfections?
    This isn't an existential discussion about the infallibility of mankind, it's a discussion about people cheating at exams. I don't engage in pointless straw man arguments.
    Does it mean that because we cut corners on an exam we are prepared to take bribes or take liberties on the job?
    That's not something I want to ever find out. If you've reasoned with yourself that it's ok to cheat, or to use your innocuous-sounding phrase "cut corners", then I don't want to know where or when else you'll also reason with yourself that it's ok to "cut corners" elsewhere in your police career.

    As you quite rightly say, you have to do our best, at all times, to be beyond reproach. If you mindfully and deliberately cheat to get this job, then in my eyes, you've automatically deemed yourself to be unfit for service, and I see no reason for any exceptions.


  • Posts: 18,752 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Without knowing the full facts of this case, I do think people here are being very harsh.

    I have never cheated on an exam in my life, I have heard whispers of things that could be on exams. Have I made sure to study those things before an exam? Absolutely. Did some of those things come up? Absolutely.
    Whether those whispers came from people guessing or from people who heard it from someone who set the exam I have no idea.

    With regards to police exams though, because I know about them, most of the stuff is known by candidates anyway, sometimes they need a bit of a hint to get going.

    When you are actually IN the job, you don't need to know everything. In fact, it's fairly impossible to know everything. You have the chance, in work, to ask others, to look up the law, to refer to texts and acts.
    So, while actual cheating is dishonest, it doesn't equal bad policemen.

    That said, I'm not aware of the details of the actual cheating and how exactly it happened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭✭ Momc82


    Policing Board criticises PSNI over exam cheating allegations sanctions
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36550923


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 8,883 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Shield


    The Policing Board are spot on. Yes, it would be costly to get in 54 new Student Officer, but no, the right thing to do wasn't to keep them on.

    Garnerville: Where the collusion begins.
    Momc82 wrote: »
    Policing Board criticises PSNI over exam cheating allegations sanctions
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36550923


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  • Registered Users Posts: 504 Johannes_Cabal


    Shield wrote: »
    The Policing Board are spot on. Yes, it would be costly to get in 54 new Student Officer, but no, the right thing to do wasn't to keep them on.

    Garnerville: Where the collusion begins.

    In your opinion if it were only one or two students who cheated in the same manner, do you think the punishment applied would have been dismissal?


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