Chivalry

Permabear

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ahnowbrowncow

Permabear wrote: »

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http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/a-lot-of-people-misuse-the-word-chivalry.jpg

No I don't give women preferntial treatment, I'm courteous to both genders so I'll hold the door open for people, it's not something I do based on their gender.

If anyone was stuggling with their suitcase I'd offer assistance, it just so happens that those who would need physical assistance are more likely to be women than men.

Pepe LeFrits

Mostly B.

Generally I try to adopt the policy of being courteous to everyone, not just women, although there's still gender bias in it. Sometimes I just don't have the energy to defy the expectation to do the chivalrous little nonsense things. A common one is the lift in work - you'll see guys who'll always wait patiently for all the ladies to exit. If I'm beside the door and she's at the back, I'm going out first. Unless she's practically adopting the sprint position. Though sometimes you can kind of feel a bit of judgement and just think, **** it, I'm not in a hurry anyway.

Makes me smile when a woman holds the door open for me. I feel like she's agreeing with me, chivalry is ****ing stupid.

riffmongous

I'd still do those things, although only letting the woman order first would I think of as a chivalry thing, the rest would fall under just being pleasant to everyone I hope.

Although one thing that has been getting on my nerves lately is holding a door for someone following you and they just walk through rather than taking it, but in general so far I've never got a bad reaction to being courteous to women

Pepe LeFrits

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

If anyone was stuggling with their suitcase I'd offer assistance, it just so happens that those who would need physical assistance are more likely to be women than men.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Although with men I wonder if I'd be wary of offending them or something. Have helped women with their suitcases on planes before.

Mostly I think it's just a case of being nice and helpful to people as long as it's reasonable. i.e. not being the first to get to a door and then holding it up for 15 women to walk through while your icecream melts.

ancapailldorcha

Context, as with many things is everything. I tend to hold the door open for people in general regardless of their gender. If I saw someone struggling to load a heavy bag into the overhead compartment, I'd offer to help anyway. Same goes with giving up seats on the bus to elderly people, pregnant women and the disabled.

Not sure with giving up my coat. If its cold then it's down to the individual to prepare accordingly I would think.

One eyed Jack

Permabear wrote: »

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I'd certainly consider myself chivalrous, and it's something I instill in my own son. I don't think they're quaint, outdated notions at all, nor has any woman I've ever met complained about it. I do think there's a general "death of courtesy" thing though, among both genders tbh, as I've sometimes witnessed behaviour that's either ungentlemanly, and unladylike.

There's a small minority of people who pride themselves on how miserable they can make other people's lives, but I think there's nothing outdated about chivalry, and from my own experiences offline, I haven't picked up on all that much resentment of such traditions that fly in the face of "gender equality".

Chivalry is a good thing IMO.

El_Duderino 09

It's not really on in a lot of contexts nowadays. In work you can't treat people differently if you treat them the same. Should a man pass up a promotion for a woman? Should a woman pass up a promotion because she's a woman?

Good manners dictates that you hold doors and allow other out of the elevator first. The trick is to not make a big song and dance about it.

I was climbing a mountain with some fellas, one of whom was a Chinese army officer. He was always at the back of the group and I was questioning the fitness levels of the Chinese army. It turns out he was keeping a protective eye on us all because he was expert at hiking. That's ultimate chivalry, purposeful and subtle.

With my partner I'll behave differently but that's down to our division of labour. I'm more likely to be traditionally chivalrous with her, Holding doors and all that jazz. I know whether she would prefer to lead the way, in which case I'll hold the door. If she preferred me to lead the way, I will

eviltwin

I'm a woman and I don't expect a man to be chivalrous and I wouldn't like it personally especially from a stranger. Manners and being a nice person is totally different but expecting a man to pay for dinner because he's a man, hold a door because he's a man etc is a ridiculous notion imo.

Wibbs

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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Of course. My point was that I would consider chivalry in the modern sense to extend beyond gender.

Permabear wrote: »

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I've done the same myself the few times it's come up. I tend to be fairly resistant to cold so it isn't a problem. It's all well and good my saying that someone should prepare but when you see someone struggling with cold or whatever, it's natural to offer assistance.

eviltwin

Permabear wrote: »

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Would you give your coat to a man?

ahnowbrowncow

Wibbs wrote: »

Meme

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

Wibbs

eviltwin wrote: »

Would you give your coat to a man?

Ah here ET, stop with your probing of the obvious, you fecker you.

Radiosonde

Permabear wrote: »

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The problem with that is being a woman isn't a disability. It's appropriate to offer to help people who are visibly struggling, but a man shouldn't assume a woman can't manage to a lift a bag into an overhead compartment.

Permabear

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eviltwin

Permabear wrote: »

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Why is that do you think? I'm curious why you feel it's necessary to be extra mannerly to a woman.

El_Duderino 09

Permabear wrote:

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Be fair though. You're treating women as you would treat elderly or disabled people. I believe it comes from good intentions, but it's not really a compliment to treat someone as if they are too old or physically unable to do normal things. It was once considered a compliment to treat a woman as a delicate little flower and now it is a compliment to treat people equally.

If you wouldn't offer your coat to a man... why not?

Some chaps can do the chivalry gig without people batting an eye lid. Other's try too hard, holding doors for ladies that are 100 yards away etc and passing comments aspiring to be witty to get a thank you.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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Along with that, traditional formal male dress usually involves a shirt and jacket, ie 2 layers. Women tend to wear dresses which won't provide much insulation.

eviltwin

Permabear wrote: »

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And if her feet were hurting would you carry her home?

I understand the intention but that's her problem. Why should anyone go cold because someone didn't bring a coat and why should the onus be on a man to offer his?

Permabear

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Permabear

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eviltwin

Permabear wrote: »

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Helping a person who needs it is just good manners. Feeling that men need to be extra mindful of women and help them because they are women is unnecessary.

El_Duderino 09

Permabear wrote:

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You are old fashioned and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Along with that, traditional formal male dress usually involves a shirt and jacket, ie 2 layers. Women tend to wear dresses which won't provide much insulation.

Fair point, a person is cold so you offer your clothes but now you're in the position of needing to justify the more random parts of chivalry such as allowing a woman to order food first or get out of the elevator first.

Without a good reason to offer assistance, can you see why someone who was raised to treat everyone equally could see it as patronising? Or quid pro quo, 'I'll open the door for you and you shut up when I'm talking, ok flower'?

Why not just be mannerly? Why base it on gender at all?

ancapailldorcha

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fair point, a person is cold so you offer your clothes but now you're in the position of needing to justify the more random parts of chivalry such as allowing a woman to order food first or get out of the elevator first.

When I'm dining with friends, I always order last. I like to know what everyone else is ordering before I decide. Same with being offered a drink. My answer is always "What are you having?"

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Without a good reason to offer assistance, can you see why someone who was raised to treat everyone equally could see it as patronising? Or quid pro quo, 'I'll open the door for you and you shut up when I'm talking, ok flower'?

Why not just be mannerly? Why base it on gender at all?

As I said above, my approach on such things is largely independent of gender. The giving up a coat example is slightly different because of the different ways men and women dress.

El_Duderino 09

Permabear wrote:

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No you wouldn't be complimenting them, youd be a d1ck. Same as if you watched a man or child struggle to lift something. You can just treat people equally.

Permabear wrote:

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Fair play, I didn't see that until after I posted. The point stands though. If you would do it for either gender, where's the need for manners based on sex discrimination?

If you're so chivalrous, why only help women? And if you help men an women equally, how would you have time for chivalry?

El_Duderino 09

ancapailldorcha wrote:

When I'm dining with friends, I always order last. I like to know what everyone else is ordering before I decide. Same with being offered a drink. My answer is always "What are you having?"

This isn't chivalry, it's your own preference and has nothing to do with manners (certainly not unmannerly though).

ancapailldorcha wrote:

As I said above, my approach on such things is largely independent of gender. The giving up a coat example is slightly different because of the different ways men and women dress.

Again this isn't chivalry. It's just reacting to other people's needs. That's the sensible way to approach things.

If someone looks like they need help, offer help. Being a woman does not equals needing help.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You are old fashioned and it's not necessarily a bad thing.



Fair point, a person is cold so you offer your clothes but now you're in the position of needing to justify the more random parts of chivalry such as allowing a woman to order food first or get out of the elevator first.

Without a good reason to offer assistance, can you see why someone who was raised to treat everyone equally could see it as patronising? Or quid pro quo, 'I'll open the door for you and you shut up when I'm talking, ok flower'?

Why not just be mannerly? Why base it on gender at all?

Chivalry isn't necessarily based upon gender at all. In fact throughout history it has been a code instilled in men to be virtuous and noble, to be mindful of the needs of others, to care for people regardless of their gender. It's been interpreted by different civilisations in many different ways throughout history.

I would give another man the shirt off my back if he were more in need of it than I was, a coat wouldn't cost me a thought, and I often have given my coat to homeless people. I'd often hold doors or gates open for people, I'll be the last person to sit down when everyone else has a seat. These are things I do unconsciously at this stage. I was never told nor taught by anyone to do these things. It was simply something I picked up myself from being aware of other people.

It's really nothing at all to do with being patronising of anyone, and like I said above, I've never met anyone yet who didn't appreciate a small gesture that simply made their life just that little bit easier, and it didn't cost me anything (except a few jackets :pac:).