DLR Lexicon

Joe_ Public

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/libraries-you-have-the-right-to-remain-silent-1.2667399

I have to say as a member of the Dun Laoghaire library/lexicon, I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiments expressed in the above letter. I would like to know, beyond locking yourself into the jacks, where those designated quiet areas are supposed to be. It's a great facility for lots of people, as it should be for what it cost, but it's not a reader-friendly building. I'd be curious to know the thoughts of other regular users.

Tabnabs

As a weekly user of the Lexicon I whole heatedly disagree with the letter. The days of being able to hear a pin drop in a library are gone, finito.

I know the area that the reader is complaining about, it is designated by the library as a "common area" where people can eat, drink and talk. Personally I'd be more upset at the lack of free newspapers to read, than the noise of people around me. The other side of the building has ample seating, which tends to be very quiet. It's the same upstairs. The top floor is very much the quiet zone and any noise up here tends to be frowned upon.

I'm more annoyed about the students taking over the place and using it like a college/school study hall. It's done to the exclusion of the other users and the library staff seem unwilling to tackle it. Also the wifi for some reason never works on my phone, or when it does you have to wander around looking for a decent signal.

Joe_ Public

Fair enough. I guess we all probably have different thresholds as to what constitutes acceptable level of noise. I thought mine was high enough, but then that is obviously a subjective judgement.

That area on the ground floor, I wasn't aware it was designated as a drinking and talking area, there are certainly no signs suggesting it, I thought that was the purpose of having a cafe on the lower ground floor. The writer certainly stood no chance of finding quality reading time there and I totally agree that the newspaper facility, although it doesn't interest me, is very poorly maintained.

Those quiet areas you mention, I find you can be lucky sometimes and get a relatively peaceful spot, but more often they're overrun with students and you just get frustrated. But then, they're entitled to use it too and I was a fairly obstreperous one myself once upon a time.

I think the real issue I have is with the design. There are no quiet areas (imo) because it's designed, intentionally or not, to be a cauldron of noise, all those wide open spaces, the high ceilings, the shiny wooden floors that kids love nothing better than stomping on and thrilling how the echoes bounce and thrum off the walls. I sometimes wonder whether the architect and engineers weren't misinformed that they were building a concertina hall rather than a library and, drawing up their plans, thought "the acoustics are going to be something special here indeed." And I would ask, for the guts of 40 million, why a children's library couldn't have been located in a separate part of the building away from the main adult section.

Anyway, for all that sorry rant, I do get it that, as you suggest, the nature and function of the library is changing and maybe that's better than seeing them all close down. The DLR Lexicon isn't as much a library anyway, conveniently dispensing of the term in its title, as a large community centre that just happens to have books and dvds in it. Some of us (traditionalists like me and the letter writer) won't like it but I guess there's little for us to do but suck it up.

trishasaffron

I think the letter is a bit unclear and rambling and it doesn't deal with the main issues that get up my nose.

I've stopped reading there (on any floor) since it was taken over as a dating agency by schoolkids! I've had kids eating bags of crisps beside me, talking on the phone, whisper and giggle for 30 mins+, leave bags on table to reserve it and disappear for 1 hour while others are looking for a seat.

The on shelf book availability is poor - anything I need or want I have to reserve.

While the poor design is, presumably, outside the control of the staff, I am really disappointed at their day to day management of the space.

Tabnabs

I have complained in writing to the library about the student use. It really is out of control and, as a weekly user, I find it unacceptable that the regulars are marginalised. Here's the response I got when I wrote to them (a month ago).

Dear

Many thanks for your email. This is the peak time of the year when students flock to every library in the country, preparing for third level and second level exams. Seats are on a first come, first served basis here in the LexIcon and our security staff keep an eye on spaces that are not occupied for long periods - belongings are frequently moved on if students do not occupy their seats for periods over 30 minutes. However, many students come to the library when we open at 9.30am and are there until we close either at 8.00pm Mon-Thurs or 5.00pm on Fri-Sat. Naturally they will need to take breaks from time to time and that is understandable. We try to ensure that they know that they cannot hold seats if they are not using them, due to the high demand for these places.

It is likely that the LexIcon and other dlr branch libraries will remain busy until mid June. Saturdays are particularly busy during May and June and we anticipate that midweek from Monday 16th May-Friday 17th June will be a peak period for exam students also.

Library customers are permitted to eat their own lunch on Level 3 of the LexIcon but water bottles only are permitted on Levels 4 and 5. We will update that section of the Policy that was introduced recently due to popular demand so apologies if that is currently misleading. We had no indoor area where customers could have their own sandwiches and Level 3 is the most suitable section for this.

Kind regards


Senior Executive Librarian: dlr LexIcon and Reader Development

schemingbohemia

How do you think the staff should handle it? That reply from them seems perfectly acceptable to me. Are you suggesting that students be barred from the library?

On another note, was at a wonderful free concert in the studio in the lexicon last night, hadn't even realised it existed. Wonderful venue and very suitable for events that would be too small for the pavilion.

The Eidola Trio are playing again in the Studio on June 24th. Free again.

Larbre34

I was in there yesterday meeting someone and I passed through the main lending area on the 4th floor, which had over 100 kids studying, and between them the ambient noise was very low, surprisingly in fact. There was a bit of noise leaking from the childrens library alright, and I imagine that goes up during organised sessions like storytime etc. I think this is a big improvement on its early days in operation.

Level 3 is a bit of a Grand Central Station in fairness, but most seem to restrict noise and bustle to that location and if thats accepted by most then its fair enough. It was built as a cultural centre and not just a Library in fairness, the huge numbers using it suggest, if anything, it is something of a victim of its own success.

Spare a thought for those who do have to do the big exams in this weather, wish them luck and just be glad its not you.

Tabnabs

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How do you think the staff should handle it? That reply from them seems perfectly acceptable to me. Are you suggesting that students be barred from the library?

I suggested that the library was not keeping to their own guidelines and having a set amount of students, to allow everyone, the free use of a public amenity. They make the rules and then ignored them...

CatFromHue

Yeah I don't think you can complain about students and school kids using the library. It is a public library for use by all after all and if they're there before you such is life.

I have to say, and I'm not a student or school kid, that when it comes to noise they're usually all right and do make an effort to keep it down. Much more so than when I was in college and in the college library. The older generation on the other hand are a different story. I'm happy to guess that the person on the phone in the IT article wasn't a student or school kid.

A public library will never be pin drop quiet but I've never been there and found it too loud to read a book, or even that loud either to be honest.

CatFromHue

Tabnabs wrote: »

I suggested that the library was not keeping to their own guidelines and having a set amount of students, to allow everyone, the free use of a public amenity. They make the rules and then ignored them...

What guidelines are these?

I just looked up the guidelines for students on DLR website and it says

Guidelines for students using dlr Libraries
•Students are welcome to use the facilities of dlr Library Service.
•You must be a registered member of dlr Library Service and bring your
library card with you each time you visit.
•There is a specified number of study places in each branch. These are
assigned on a first come first served basis and are allocated only in
specified study areas.
•For Health and Safety reasons you may not sit on the floor to study.
Bookshelves and access areas must be kept clear.
•You are asked to respect library staff and other users. Just as the
customer is entitled to the highest level of customer service, members of
staff should receive the same levels of respect and courtesy from the
customer.
•You are asked to comply with directions from library staff and to refrain
from behaviour which would cause a disturbance to others.
•Any person or group creating a disturbance will have to leave the library
for the remainder of the day or for a longer period.
•You may be asked for your name and the name of your school/college.
•You are at all times responsible for your own property. For security
reasons, study places must be cleared when the library is closed.
•Mobile phones may be used in the Library on condition that phones are
set to silent.
•Food and drink (with the exception of bottled water) may not be
consumed in the library.
•Thank you for respecting dlr Libraries Guidelines for Students.
September 2011

I don't see anything there about a set number of spaces for students

Joe_ Public

•For Health and Safety reasons you may not sit on the floor to study.
Bookshelves and access areas must be kept clear.



That one is making me smile. If you want access areas kept clear, then why put most of the bookshelves along areas where people have to walk to get around the building. That cuts to the heart of what the IT letter writer was getting at, I think, how the former core library element of books and reading has been totally downgraded and it seems we just have to accept it. The response seems to be that's just how it is, they want free music, areas to congregate and chat, some people even to use it as an office. The same debate has been going on for years in Britain and the USA and people are biting back.

As for the claims made in that staff letter, I can't say I'm there all the time, but "security staff keeping an eye on spaces not occupied for 30 minutes or more" does not ring true to me. I've never seen it happen once. Security staff, in my experience, rarely leave their station which is at the front desk on the ground floor. And library staff do not get involved in monitoring or overseeing. I guess they don't see that as part of their job description.

Plus, in my experience, mobile phones are a scourge on all levels. After much trial and error, I settled on a spot on the Sandycove side on Level 3? (main reading room level anyway) which seemed quietest, but then I found people at the work/study desks would filter over to this area to take calls, either congregating by the stairs or coming over to sit by the seats, babbling away to their hearts content. You can get angry/complain/throw angry looks etc, but you'll end up solving nothing and only getting increasingly frustrated and feeling like a grumpy old man. Best in the long run to simply admit defeat, I reckon, and move on.

Tabnabs

CatFromHue wrote: »

What guidelines are these?

I just looked up the guidelines for students on DLR website and it says



I don't see anything there about a set number of spaces for students

http://libraries.dlrcoco.ie/library-facilities/study-spaces

100 spaces for DL. Again, their rules.

I note that the guidelines say -
Food and drink (with the exception of bottled water) may not be consumed in the library.

This is again either wilfully ignored by staff or their own staff are ignorant of the rules. Even the Senior Executive Librarian seems to believe it's acceptable.

CatFromHue

I think you're really grasping at straws if you have a problem with people standing and looking at the books on the shelves.

CatFromHue

Tabnabs wrote: »

http://libraries.dlrcoco.ie/library-facilities/study-spaces

100 spaces for DL. Again, their rules.

I note that the guidelines say -
Food and drink (with the exception of bottled water) may not be consumed in the library.

This is again either wilfully ignored by staff or their own staff are ignorant of the rules. Even the Senior Executive Librarian seems to believe it's acceptable.

Have you ever counted up the total desk space in the library? I'd say that's about 100 or so.

They're not saying only 100 students my use the study area but I'd guess that there's only 100 study spaces.

Having been in Blackrock and Dalkey libraries there's only about 15 and 10 desks to study at there too.

As for the food I'd agree with you but I've only ever seen someone eating a packet of crisps on the sly so nothing to get worked up about in my experience.

Joe_ Public

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think you're really grasping at straws if you have a problem with people standing and looking at the books on the shelves.

If that's directed my way, I have no earthly idea how you arrived at that interpretation from what I wrote.

Tabnabs

Does you definition of a study space include the children's section, the computer stations, the glazed area seating on level 3 and 4?

"For health and safety reasons this number cannot be exceeded." This is another guideline that is being wilfully ignored...

I'm in the library weekly, all through the year, I see the students taking up the seating on level 4 and then leaving that to have lunch/breaks on level 3, so it ends up that other users have to see two sets of seating out of bounds. The library was designed to accommodate all and exclude no single group, but this is not proving to be the case and things are out of hand when you have to go to the cafe and pay to read a library book...

CatFromHue

Joe_ Public wrote: »

•For Health and Safety reasons you may not sit on the floor to study.
Bookshelves and access areas must be kept clear.



That one is making me smile. If you want access areas kept clear, then why put most of the bookshelves along areas where people have to walk to get around the building.

Joe_ Public wrote: »

If that's directed my way, I have no earthly idea how you arrived at that interpretation from what I wrote.

Well what do you mean by this then?

CatFromHue

Tabnabs wrote: »

Does you definition of a study space include the children's section, the computer stations, the glazed area seating on level 3 and 4?

"For health and safety reasons this number cannot be exceeded." This is another guideline that is being wilfully ignored...

I'm in the library weekly, all through the year, I see the students taking up the seating on level 4 and then leaving that to have lunch/breaks on level 3, so it ends up that other users have to see two sets of seating out of bounds. The library was designed to accommodate all and exclude no single group, but this is not proving to be the case and things are out of hand when you have to go to the cafe and pay to read a library book...

I would consider a study space to be anywhere that has a desk.

What do you mean by lunch/breaks, do you mean they come down and sit at a desk to eat a sandwich?

I've never seen this.

Joe_ Public

Ok, I'll try and explain myself better. I'm criticising the design of the library, not people walking along access routes to get where they want to go or the people browsing or looking for books. I'm saying don't put bookshelves along those passageways (as half the fiction section is) and then put up a rule saying these areas must be kept clear. My argument is that the book sections, formerly the core business of libraries, almost seem like an afterthought now. But a lot of people probably don't care about this, so I may just be peeing into the wind on this one.

CatFromHue

My understanding of the "keep clear" rule is stop people, in specific students, sitting on the ground and reading, which they might think about doing if the place is full.

I have no major problem with the design of the library other than the toilets.

Gareth Keenan

Joe_ Public wrote: »

some people even to use it as an office.
.

there's a pilot project for hot desking going on there at the moment. https://www.localenterprise.ie/DLR/News/DLR-Co-working-Space-Expressions-of-Interest.html

Joe_ Public

CatFromHue wrote: »

My understanding of the "keep clear" rule is stop people, in specific students, sitting on the ground and reading, which they might think about doing if the place is full.

I have no major problem with the design of the library other than the toilets.

Fair enough, I'm not saying it's the biggest crime ever. It's just I don't like going to browse the shelves and having to stand back every few seconds to let people pass. Not their fault, of course, and it's not always that bad, but just seems to me a minor inconvenience that could and should have been avoided and shows how low books are down the list of the lexicon's priorities. I just find it a bit sad but that's probably because I'm old school.

Joe_ Public

Gareth Keenan wrote: »

there's a pilot project for hot desking going on there at the moment. https://www.localenterprise.ie/DLR/News/DLR-Co-working-Space-Expressions-of-Interest.html

Sounds good for those who wish to avail of it and may generate some revenue for DLR. Can't knock it at all.

Tabnabs

CatFromHue wrote: »

I would consider a study space to be anywhere that has a desk.

What do you mean by lunch/breaks, do you mean they come down and sit at a desk to eat a sandwich?

I've never seen this.

Just back from the library, the quietest part of level 3 & 4 was the kids section. That would explain the four elderly people sitting here to read. Every available raised horizontal surface was in use. No chance of getting to a computer or check the library catalogue unless you were under 12. Four tables being used for lunch gatherings and plenty of evidence of food being eaten while studying at the desks.

I get it now, there's a hierarchy and exam students are at the top of the pile, with various other groups made to defer to their needs.

Normally you'd see quite a few people working on laptops and on the library computers, you'd wonder where this sub-group has been shunted off to now?

astrofool

Tabnabs wrote: »

Just back from the library, the quietest part of level 3 & 4 was the kids section. That would explain the four elderly people sitting here to read. Every available raised horizontal surface was in use. No chance of getting to a computer or check the library catalogue unless you were under 12. Four tables being used for lunch gatherings and plenty of evidence of food being eaten while studying at the desks.

I get it now, there's a hierarchy and exam students are at the top of the pile, with various other groups made to defer to their needs.

Normally you'd see quite a few people working on laptops and on the library computers, you'd wonder where this sub-group has been shunted off to now?

I think at this time of the year, prioritising exam students makes most sense, they'll be gone soon enough, and better they be in the library feigning study then not studying at all.

Technology has made the days of a quiet public library disappear, but there is noise cancelling headphones, earplugs which could equally solve the problem.

I'm not sure where this "hot-desking" fad has come from, there's a very limited amount of things that can be done effectively from a mobile laptop warrior, I don't see how most people could be productive this way outside of a temporary solution while finding a more permanent location (you're also always at risk of not finding a hot desk, in which case you don't work at all?). Sardines in a can have a nicer work life.

Tabnabs

astrofool wrote: »

I think at this time of the year, prioritising exam students makes most sense, they'll be gone soon enough, and better they be in the library feigning study then not studying at all.

But it's stretched now into a six month period, christmas exams, mocks, summer exams, the library is busy with students more often than not. A clear approach and strict enforcement to numbers should mean that a building of this size can cater for all groups.

It would nearly make you miss the old DL Library (it really wouldn't).

Joe_ Public

Tabnabs wrote: »

But it's stretched now into a six month period, christmas exams, mocks, summer exams, the library is busy with students more often than not. A clear approach and strict enforcement to numbers should mean that a building of this size can cater for all groups.

It would nearly make you miss the old DL Library (it really wouldn't).

Well, exams will soon be over and there'll be a nice two to three month stretch where the lexicon is a veritable oasis of calm before the crowds start flocking back in the autumn like returning migrant birds. Then again, who wants to be using the library when the evenings are long and the sun is shining outside?

CatFromHue

Tabnabs wrote: »

Just back from the library, the quietest part of level 3 & 4 was the kids section. That would explain the four elderly people sitting here to read. Every available raised horizontal surface was in use. No chance of getting to a computer or check the library catalogue unless you were under 12. Four tables being used for lunch gatherings and plenty of evidence of food being eaten while studying at the desks.

I get it now, there's a hierarchy and exam students are at the top of the pile, with various other groups made to defer to their needs.

Normally you'd see quite a few people working on laptops and on the library computers, you'd wonder where this sub-group has been shunted off to now?

Fair enough. I've never seen it but I'll take your word on it.

I would say though that this is a very special time of year for school kids and what's happening now wouldn't be what happens all year round.

UrbanFox

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How do you think the staff should handle it? SNIP SNIP..

By actively controlling / managing the facility as distinct from letting the situation manage itself.

I fully accept that this is a shared public space and have no objection to the students' presence. However, as a member of the public I feel entitled to a modicum of consideration in being able to use the facilities without feeling that I am intruding in a space that has been taken over.

schemingbohemia

UrbanFox wrote: »

By actively controlling / managing the facility as distinct from letting the situation manage itself.

I fully accept that this is a shared public space and have no objection to the students' presence. However, as a member of the public I feel entitled to a modicum of consideration in being able to use the facilities without feeling that I am intruding in a space that has been taken over.

How are staff to cope with your feelings? The facility is being heavily used by people you don't like, they're unlikely to be there in a few weeks time.

This is like an old farts thread giving out about the young people, wasn't like that in my day......

From the sound of it some of the people on here would prefer if the place was virtually empty.

Larbre34

I was on three different floors of the Library at lunchtime today, it was so quiet I was concious of the squeak of my shoes. Generally Ive seen the studious kids are very respectful of the rules. Its a community gathering place and culture centre, not just a Library and certainly not a museum or church, everyone must be reasonable.

UrbanFox

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How are staff to cope with your feelings? The facility is being heavily used by people you don't like, they're unlikely to be there in a few weeks time.

This is like an old farts thread giving out about the young people, wasn't like that in my day......

From the sound of it some of the people on here would prefer if the place was virtually empty.

You could usefully correct this if you wish.

I never said anything adverse about the people in the Lexicon. You have said that the facility is being heavily used by people I don't like which is something that I never said. It is also something that I don't think either. So, you need not ascribe such an opinion to me.

In fact, I made it perfectly clear that I had no objection to the presence of the students but you must have missed that bit.

Where I do have complaint is that there seemed to be a lack of order. For example, I saw a lady who had reserved a PC having to shunt students out of the way to actually get at the PC. The PC was clearly marked as not being a study desk but it had been appopriated for that purpose anyhow. That just should not arise.

Maybe the layout of the Lexicon contributes to the situation ?

At a much smaller scale, Deansgrange library is perfect. All the adult PCs are lined across the back wall in a clearly separated area and I have never seen any conflict between users including students doing exam prep.

Out of curiosity, do you know offhand if my Local Property Tax contributes towards running the library ?

NUTLEY BOY

UrbanFox wrote: »

SNIP... Out of curiosity, do you know offhand if my Local Property Tax contributes towards running the library ?

I think that it does. Maybe that gives you more locus standi on the argument