Amalgamation of the ASTI & TUI: any objections?

gaiscioch

After the latest victory of this government's divide and conquer strategy, I'm left shaking my head and wondering what is the procedure for amalgamating both of the secondary school unions?

Every teacher I've spoken with believes the amalgamation of both unions would make huge sense, not least for lowering our fees due to the greater economies of scale that a combined organisation would bring. However, this unification of both unions is still not getting on the agenda even though times of conflict often lead to such amalgamations.

I get that there'll be people climbing up the ladder in both unions feeling put out by any potential loss of power they might have, and I also appreciate that the TUI represents people at 3rd level also, but both of these issues can be surmounted.

In the bigger picture, what rational, or indeed internal political, reason is there against the creation of a single strong union at secondary level?

deiseindublin

Not an amalgamation, maybe a new union outside of TUI or ASTI that isn't inside the ICTU, at least then members could join without needing approval of former union.

r93kaey5p2izun

No.

Ideally I'd like a new second level union open to all second level teachers and free from any legacy issues associated with either of the current unions. But that would just lead to a third union so in more practical terms, I would like the two unions to ammalgamate with arrangements made with another suitable union (such as IFUT) to accommodate third level members of TUI.

acequion

No.

Can't see a new union getting off the ground. If ye remember fightback tried to get people interested after the final HR cave in a few years ago but without much success.People are just too cautious.I really think the best bet would be if ASTI could get out of ICTU and for TUI people to then join up. If that happened TUI would probably become an all third level affair. Which would be ideal.

But then again maybe the third level people wouldn't agree. One thing is certain though,the current situation is a disaster for everyone and it's the reason why we've made little progress in our battles with the Gov /Des. Over on the fightback facebook page [link on the "calling for a no" thread here] they explain it very well and encourage people to send in applications to ASTI anyway.

2011abc

No.

There were barely 30 people at a meeting called a few years ago with the theme ,"Do We Need a New Teachers ' Union ?"

gaiscioch

No.

An interesting interpretation in Brian Mooney's article in today's Irish Times:

With both unions now jointly represented in more than 300 second-level schools, the logic of creating one teachers’ union, to represent all second-level teachers, cannot be far off. The current and ongoing strength of the negotiating position, and the benefits attached to membership of the INTO at primary level indicates the wisdom of moving to one union at second level.

Do you think an amalgamation between both union is more likely now, as a result of the TUI's very recent growth in schools where they formerly had little to no presence?

According to this February 2018 article, despite TUI poaching the ASTI remains a far, far larger union in secondary schools:

Department of Education salary data shows that at the beginning of January 2017 it made union subscription deductions at source on behalf of 14,901 ASTI members in secondary schools.

By July 1st, 2017, this number had fallen to 13,930.

During the same period, TUI members whose union subscriptions were deducted at source rose from 1,793 to 2,993.

Again, over the same timeframe, the number of new ASTI subscriptions set up was 90. By contrast, equivalent number for the TUI was 1,281.

The TUI website states here that the 'TUI represents over 16,000 members at second and third level in the education service.' In other words, the vast majority of TUI members are not secondary school teachers. This is news to me. It seems that during the ASTI's industrial action back in 2004, the TUI served the exact same function as 5th Columnists for the Department of Education as it did in the industrial action of recent years: Fall in ASTI membership but big rise in numbers joining TUI (Tue, Apr 6, 2004)

amacca

Makenna Slow Louse wrote: »

Ideally I'd like a new second level union open to all second level teachers and free from any legacy issues associated with either of the current unions. But that would just lead to a third union so in more practical terms, I would like the two unions to ammalgamate with arrangements made with another suitable union (such as IFUT) to accommodate third level members of TUI.

seconded...thats what I think would be best for 2nd level teachers too...less dilution, common objective etc

r93kaey5p2izun

No.

Why do you think most TUI members are not second level? That data is only for DES not ETBs. Majority are second level afaik. EDIT: I just checked and there's over 1000 second level members in my branch alone. So no chance total second level is less than 3000.

John McGabhann of TUI said in his address to congress today that there should only be one second level union. I have heard him say this a number of times when he speaks.

The ASTI might have more members if it would open up its membership to everyone - and I'm not talking about during a dispute. I tried to join ASTI 12 years ago in preference to TUI but they would not take me. I tried on three further occasions since. I am disgusted at TUI accepting those abandoning ASTI during industrial action and hope they are penalised. Many such people were rejected at my branch when names were read out. But if ASTI refuse to represent me then I won't stand for generalised criticism of TUI members for simply being TUI members. I needed union representation and ASTI didn't provide it - I won't be criticised for joining TUI in such circumstances.

SligoBrewer

No.

There are over 13,000 teachers in ETBs around the country.

evolving_doors

No.

I didn't actually realise that the 2 main teacher unions in the UK have amalgamted.

https://www.atl.org.uk/latest/atl-and-nut-form-national-education-union-%E2%80%93-largest-education-union-uk

TheDriver

evolving_doors wrote: »

I didn't actually realise that the 2 main teacher unions in the UK have amalgamted.

https://www.atl.org.uk/latest/atl-and-nut-form-national-education-union-%E2%80%93-largest-education-union-uk

One would be sorry to see the back of NUTs even for the juvenile giggle....

joebloggs32

No.

TUI are now close to 19000. I reckon close to about 2/3 are 2nd level.
It should be noted though that it is not just simply 2nd level and then lecturers in IT's.
TUI represents people in youthreach, fetac, lab technicians and whole lot more. I believe there are over 30 different types of workers in all kinds of educational settings. The Asti merely represents 3 grades of workers; teachers, deputy principals and principals.
Would the Asti be happy if the youthreach resource workers for example were included in a new joint union? Should TUI second level throw those other grades under the bus who for so long they have stood beside? How would finances in any divorce be sorted and new marriage for that matter.
I would like one union to represent the interests of all second level teachers, but when you look at those issues above, and many more it's easy to see why little or no progress has ever been made. Even if you start negotiations now, by the time your finished the executives and presidents act will probably have changed in both and different people will bring different views all the time.

evolving_doors

No.

joebloggs32 wrote: »

TUI are now close to 19000. I reckon close to about 2/3 are 2nd level.
It should be noted though that it is not just simply 2nd level and then lecturers in IT's.
TUI represents people in youthreach, fetac, lab technicians and whole lot more. I believe there are over 30 different types of workers in all kinds of educational settings. The Asti merely represents 3 grades of workers; teachers, deputy principals and principals.
Would the Asti be happy if the youthreach resource workers for example were included in a new joint union? Should TUI second level throw those other grades under the bus who for so long they have stood beside? How would finances in any divorce be sorted and new marriage for that matter.
I would like one union to represent the interests of all second level teachers, but when you look at those issues above, and many more it's easy to see why little or no progress has ever been made. Even if you start negotiations now, by the time your finished the executives and presidents act will probably have changed in both and different people will bring different views all the time.

ASTI represent non-dept. paid teachers in fee charging schools too.
I think ASTI members would have no problem representing youthreach. Some are treated pretty badly along with 3rd level tutors and lecturers. In the end I think it would be the same type of contract issues.

deiseindublin

I'd be surprised if ASTI touched a merge after what TUI have done the last while.

gaiscioch

No.

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'd be surprised if ASTI touched a merge after what TUI have done the last while.

Why is this issue of a single union not even been aired in 2018 by any public figure representing teachers? It's beyond infuriating how teachers are successfully divided and conquered at every single period of industrial unrest. Behind closed doors, the senior figures in the DoES and government must be very smug about their tactics when it comes to dealing with teachers. A single, strong union? That's a game changer.

Back in April 2006, these were two headlines:

Teacher leaders say unions may merge

Single union for teachers considered

School teachers could soon be represented by one trade union body instead of three.

The leaders of the country's three teachers' unions have told RTÉ News that they believe there will be movements towards unity over the next few years. Two unions say coming together is inevitable.

Not since the 1980s have the unions been so united. In what is seen as a landmark development, they have made a combined benchmarking submission this year.

Earlier this week, all three unions met Department of Education officials to discuss school inspection reports.

The INTO, the ASTI and the TUI, if brought under one umbrella organisation, would represent more than 60,000 teachers.

As recently as four years ago, April 2014, both unions were publicly talking about a merger:

Plan to unite teachers' unions considered

Meanwhile, a merger of the two second-level teachers' unions is being considered.

The news was announced at the ASTI and TUI annual conferences yesterday.

TUI President Gerard Craughwell said that both unions needed to be together, at all times, and on all issues.

The time had come for them to set aside whatever historical differences there had been between them, he said.

Mr Craughwell said a merger would create a single, strong union of over 33,000 members and would have real muscle, both within the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and against Government.

ASTI President Sally Maguire made a similar call, asking how much stronger would their statement, protests and negotiations be, if they were done with one voice.

According to ASTIR, at the ASTI Convention in 2015, Motion 78 was as follows:

Motion 78 – Unity with TUI (Dublin North East): That the ASTI open discussions with the TUI with a view to forming one single union to represent secondary teachers.

So, what is happening each of these proposals to unite both unions, or more specifically who in each union is preventing the one biggest thing that would benefit all secondary teachers? It's a lot harder to find public explanations for why attempts at creating a single union are not succeeding.

SligoBrewer

No.

Craughwell though.

gaiscioch

No.

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'd be surprised if ASTI touched a merge after what TUI have done the last while.

True, but we have to think of the future. And who knows but we might even get greater economies of scale and lower annual fees by combining resources. As long as one union can be bought off with 30 pieces of silver by government policy, the greater good of our profession will suffer. Divide. Conquer. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. What's happened in the past few years will simply be replayed again and again and make no mistake that it will be the working conditions of teachers that will suffer.

The sheer stupidity of two secondary school unions being played off against each other year after year like puppets on a government string is repeatedly for me the sole embarrassing thing about being a teacher.

Nellieelephant

No.

Hand on heart we have to consider uniting with TUI for a single post primary teachers union. I know they have left us down but what happened over people leaving ASTI for financial gain cannot be allowed to occur again. It’s our weak spot. INTO -NO !- I draw the line there - they are a lost cause in my opinion. All t shirts and colorful posters there -no winter coats and laminated sheets for a winter strike ready.

ASISEEIT

It depends.

We have enough spineless teachers of our own without adding more. I met a Tesco worker on Strike roughly same time we "risked"2 whole days- who said he was ashamed that we were fellow trade unionists. He was out for three weeks.

Liberal_irony

No.

Scrap both and start from scratch.

ASISEEIT

It depends.

Im a great man for rethinking opinions and i think perhaps a joint union not a bad idea. The asti great for marching troops up the top of the hill and then down. We have to ask ourselves realistically is this ever going to change ? Are we like republicans in their long war who felt a united ireland just round the corner? One last push. Perhaps its time we realised the truth ? Im not convinced either way just putting it out there.

judeboy101

Only if all those rodentine individuals who jumped unions are excluded, then yes.

mtoutlemonde

judeboy101 wrote: »

Only if all those rodentine individuals who jumped unions are excluded, then yes.

.... and who are being welcomed back with a reduction in fees.

km79

No.

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

.... and who are being welcomed back with a reduction in fees.

And also didn't lose pay for strike days........

judeboy101

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Only if all those rodentine individuals who jumped unions are excluded, then yes.

.... and who are being welcomed back with a reduction in fees.

"he's makin' a list, he's checking it twice, he's going to find out who's naughty or nice...."

Nellieelephant

No.

judeboy101 wrote: »

"he's makin' a list, he's checking it twice, he's going to find out who's naughty or nice...."

Takes the big man about a month to check the list! How long has it taken ICTU to adjudicate at this stage ?

judeboy101

Nellieelephant wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

"he's makin' a list, he's checking it twice, he's going to find out who's naughty or nice...."

Takes the big man about a month to check the list! How long has it taken ICTU to adjudicate at this stage ?

I think there's an announcement in the pipeline. But loose lips sinks ships ;-)

evolving_doors

No.

judeboy101 wrote: »

I think there's an announcement in the pipeline. But loose lips sinks ships ;-)

A wee fine then I suppose?
No individual expulsions probably!
Just the everlasting aftertaste of resentment and the state sanctioned dividing of one union, facilitated by another.
Or maybe not.

I doubt the TUI are going to show teachers the door for this.

Nellieelephant

No.

evolving_doors wrote: »

A wee fine then I suppose?
No individual expulsions probably!
Just the everlasting aftertaste of resentment and the state sanctioned dividing of one union, facilitated by another.
Or maybe not.

I doubt the TUI are going to show teachers the door for this.

I disagree - I think there will be individual expulsions. The figures were clear and the crossover isn’t rocket science. Although who wants those kind of people in their union anyway is another debate!!

evolving_doors

No.

Nellieelephant wrote: »

I disagree - I think there will be individual expulsions. The figures were clear and the crossover isn’t rocket science. Although who wants those kind of people in their union anyway is another debate!!

I doubt it'll go individual expulsions. For that to happen I'd imagine yould have to have your subscription data shared and cross referenced amongst 2 organisations ... do you give consent to that when you sign up?

Unless they go on anecdotal reports from proposings and ratifications... and then it's up to members to appeal an expulsion, maybe?

Probably less hassle for a union to just cough up a fine. Also, fines are being talked about in the press so it must be on the cards (Chekov's Gun principle). Which would be an affront if just that were to happen.

Nellieelephant

No.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/poached-crane-operators-should-join-siptu-ictu-recommends-1.3161216%3Fmode%3Damp

I suppose there is some precendent there. Terminate the contact will do me. Those people who switched over for financial gain should be made a show - end of. Ironically in the above case those workers were joining a more militant union.