Questions about air traffic control as a career

reason vs religion

Mainly out of curiosity, I applied for the IAA student controller programme. So far, I've done FEAST and have been invited to sit DART. And while I know there is a long way to go, it's caused me to wonder would I take a place if offered. (If I decide I'm not serious about it, I would exit the process after DART.)

I wonder if someone in the know could answer a few questions I have.

What is the likelihood of automation? Comfortingly, I see that the risk is given as 7% in a recent Oxford/Deloitte study. But does that mean that improvements in computing, including AI, don't pose a threat to long term job security?

The IAA website says that controllers are placed in Cork, Dublin or Shannon. While Dublin obviously handles the majority of inbound flights, I suppose Shannon is responsible for Atlantic crossings. Does that mean Shannon has a large number of controllers based there? Is Dublin much in demand and is it possible to transfer at any point?

I understand that different controllers deal with the different stages in a plane's journey: taxiing on the ground, travelling in airspace around airport and long distance flightpaths. Is one seen as being more demanding, more complicated, more desirable, etc, than another, and is there ever rotation?

What is the work like? ATC obviously has a reputation for being a high-stress environment. Does that mean you are almost constantly communicating with planes and other towers (?), or are there periods of less activity? (Obviously, you would have to continually keep an eye on what's on your screen.) While I presume highly-skilled, is the work largely procedural?

What does it feel like to be an ATC?! I have this impression that you might feel quite detached from the real world, working shifts and doing so atypical a job. Is that right or do you live normal lives and socialise with normal people?! Generally, would you say morale and job satisfaction is high?

It seems, according to a Limerick IT careers document available online, that a controller works three two-hour shifts per day, with half-hour breaks in between. They are also said to work five days straight followed by a three-day break, for 182 days a year. Is that correct, and does that mean that controllers have 183 days of holidays per year?

That document gives salary information but it appears to be out of date, because it mentions a training salary which is no longer given. How has the salary scale changed? And what is a shift allowance - given that the average salary quoted in that doc is significantly higher than the highest point in the salary scale, does that mean that everyone receives one?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Pat Dunne

reason vs religion wrote: »

It seems, according to a Limerick IT careers document available online, that a controller works three two-hour shifts per day, with half-hour breaks in between. They are also said to work five days straight followed by a three-day break, for 182 days a year. Is that correct, and does that mean that controllers have 183 days of holidays per year?

Sign me up straight away! A 30 hour week and only having to work 6 months a year.

Shannon757

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Sign me up straight away! A 30 hour week and only having to work 6 months a year.

Even better than teaching:rolleyes:

Thargor

Is that true? What are the wages like for it?

Shannon757

Thargor wrote: »

Is that true? What are the wages like for it?

I think it starts a 50k a year. I would love to be an air traffic controller. Seriously.

reason vs religion

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Sign me up straight away! A 30 hour week and only having to work 6 months a year.

Shannon757 wrote: »

Even better than teaching:rolleyes:

I don't know if you guys are being serious. But I highly doubt that it's 183 days of holidays, because they only get 28 days in the UK! The doc I mentioned in the OP definitely gives the impression it's 183, so I asked the question in the hope that someone would give a detailed contradiction/correction.

Blut2

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Sign me up straight away! A 30 hour week and only having to work 6 months a year.

Bear in mind that calculation includes weekends. If you do that for a normal 20 days a year of leave job you end up at 104 days (weekends) + 20 days leave + 9 days bank holidays = 133 total days a year of leave. Sounds a lot better than 20 days a year doesn't it? It's all in the phrasing.

ectoraige

Job security isn't all it's cracked up to be these days. If the worst comes to the worst and in twenty years time there just aren't any more ATC work, you'll still have developed a skillset attractive to many employers. Being able to adhere to strict procedures in a dynamic environment is something you can easily sell. There's far too many industries where your job can be automated away to be worrying. Find something that interests you now, and be prepared for change - it's going to come.

A neighbour growing up worked in Dublin Airport, my mother thought she was a carpark attendent. I discovered years later in conversation that she actually worked in ground control - parking planes. That probably doesn't help much, but I thought I'd share anyway.

reason vs religion

ectoraige wrote: »

Job security isn't all it's cracked up to be these days. If the worst comes to the worst and in twenty years time there just aren't any more ATC work, you'll still have developed a skillset attractive to many employers. Being able to adhere to strict procedures in a dynamic environment is something you can easily sell. There's far too many industries where your job can be automated away to be worrying. Find something that interests you now, and be prepared for change - it's going to come.

A neighbour growing up worked in Dublin Airport, my mother thought she was a carpark attendent. I discovered years later in conversation that she actually worked in ground control - parking planes. That probably doesn't help much, but I thought I'd share anyway.

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I would be dropping out of a degree to take it. And assuming one were to get 15/20 years into an ATC career before then having to find a new job because of automation, they'd be very unlikely to be able to match their salary (or even get close) elsewhere, at least initially. I'm not sure that a 35/40 y/o ex-ATC is really as employable as you say.

Handsome Brute

Its known to be one of the best paid jobs without a professional qualification required.

BonkeyDonker

reason vs religion wrote: »

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I would be dropping out of a degree to take it. And assuming one were to get 15/20 years into an ATC career before then having to find a new job because of automation, they'd be very unlikely to be able to match their salary (or even get close) elsewhere, at least initially. I'm not sure that a 35/40 y/o ex-ATC is really as employable as you say.

Reading your posts you seem to have thought about this a lot and weighted up the options. Your point about the college qualification is a good one however. I would suggest maybe finishing this first as it will A) Give you something to fall back on in case you either do not finish the training - historically and internationally the drop rate is quite high, and Gives you an advantage in the future if you were to apply with a college qualification, which most companies seem to favor for any employee.

reason vs religion

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

Reading your posts you seem to have thought about this a lot and weighted up the options. Your point about the college qualification is a good one however. I would suggest maybe finishing this first as it will A) Give you something to fall back on in case you either do not finish the training - historically and internationally the drop rate is quite high, and Gives you an advantage in the future if you were to apply with a college qualification, which most companies seem to favor for any employee.

Unfortunately I'm constrained by the recruitment process happening only every three years. So I don't really have the option of finishing my degree before starting ATC, were I offered it. I would however be able to start from where I left off in my degree if I were to flunk out of the ATC training!

The King of Dalriada

Handsome Brute wrote: »

Its known to be one of the best paid jobs without a professional qualification required.

I'd call an ATC Licence a "professional qualification"
Definitely a lot more professional and useful than the majority of Degrees issued these days.
Gender Studies and Art?... Anyone???

PeteF

From chatting to ATC guys a few years ago, the best and most favoured recruits came from the Air Corp. They received excellent training, which combined with their perceived army discipline made them very attractive for the civilian ATC positions advertised. I doubt this has changed much since.

Handsome Brute

The King of Dalriada wrote: »

I'd call an ATC Licence a "professional qualification"
Definitely a lot more professional and useful than the majority of Degrees issued these days.
Gender Studies and Art?... Anyone???

Totally agree but you know what I mean, you only need a leaving certificate to get your foot in the door. Each to their own!

ectoraige

reason vs religion wrote: »

Unfortunately I'm constrained by the recruitment process happening only every three years. So I don't really have the option of finishing my degree before starting ATC, were I offered it. I would however be able to start from where I left off in my degree if I were to flunk out of the ATC training!

It's getting easier to resume courses, you'll keep credit for the work you've already completed, and there's more and more distance learning options through the likes of Open University and the ITs.

murphaph

The sister in law and her husband are (were) ATCs in Munich (they happen to work near the airport but control high altitude airspace in southern Germany and Switzerland, not approach/landing to MUC). He just retired at the ripe old age of 55! They socialise in mixed circles and are "normal" people. The job does pay very well in Germany and presumably elsewhere. They have an Irish colleague who learned her trade at the IAA, so remember even if one country automates (and it'll be a long slow process if and when that happens IMO) you will still have a skill set in high demand by other countries and as automation begins to happen, there will likely be a sharp decline in the number of people wishing to become an ATC at all, so I doubt you'll ever have to fine a new career, as long as you're prepared to move country for work.

In short, don't worry about automation taking your job. I think even now an ATC is a job for life, if not necessarily in the original country.

Wanderer78

Know a retired at controller. Stressful job. Interesting though

john kinsella

OP how did you get on in the FEAST & DART tests?

reason vs religion

john kinsella wrote: »

OP how did you get on in the FEAST & DART tests?

FEAS and DAR tests?! Well, thanks. Now have to complete a "work strengths" questionnaire.

john kinsella

reason vs religion wrote: »

FEAS and DAR tests?! Well, thanks. Now have to complete a "work strengths" questionnaire.

Fair play, I am in the same boat as you. Thought the second test went horribly bad so was surprised to get the email yesterday.

Good luck with the rest of it.

reason vs religion

john kinsella wrote: »

Fair play, I am in the same boat as you. Thought the second test went horribly bad so was surprised to get the email yesterday.

Good luck with the rest of it.

I wondered! Your account has suspiciously few postings in the aviation forum for someone who'd care about my progress!

Thanks, you too.

This is the first time in four recruitment phases that there hasn't been a dedicated thread on Boards. But was looking back at the one from 2007 and saw this...

Count yourself lucky you didnt get in . Work in that organisation (atc)myself and most guys in there would kill to get out . Money is great but you have no quality of life with the shift we do . The shine goes off the job after a few years and it is glorified factory work with stress and a bit of fear thrown in. My advice to anyone applying is talk to operational controllers in Dublin or Shannon to get the real picture. Dont mean to be negative but come in with your eyes open.You can get great satisfaction from the actual job at times but decide do you want be on shift until you are 60 years of age.Nights and weekend work can be a killer on your health and your social life.

...which has kinda scared the hell out of me. As well as that, training is supposedly 9-5, Mon-Fri and you aren't allowed to have a job alongside that (I don't know how they expect people in their twenties to be able to finance that given there is no training salary) and there's a waiting list for transfers to Dublin of 25+ (posted in 2010) which means a wait of 5-7 years after qualifying for those interested.

The above anonymous postings are liable to being incorrect, obviously. But it has me seriously reappraising.

What are your thoughts?

Yawlboy

reason vs religion wrote: »

Money is great but you have no quality of life with the shift we do . The shine goes off the job after a few years and it is glorified factory work with stress and a bit of fear thrown in.

The maximum basic pay for controllers, including shift allowance, is more than €112,000.

The top 10 per cent of air traffic controllers in Ireland earn between €170,000 and €230,000 a year, while the average pay is €160,000.

Glorified factory work.......:rolleyes:

john kinsella

What are my thoughts?...... Well how long do you have?

It is literally doing my head in at the minute. I have been reading up so much on this for months now and still don't know what to be thinking. I read that thread alright and that comment has been stuck in my head ever since.

The whole non paid training is a difficult pill to swallow. I am a little bit older than yourself (early 30s) and whilst I have some savings they certainly wont last very long and we were considering a house purchase this year which would obviously have to be put on hold for a few years.

I am off on holiday for a couple of weeks to I really have to do some soul searching when I am away and see if I can continue with it. It is a job I've dreamed about doing for years but now that it's potentially within reaching distance I just don't know if it will be viable to put my life on hold for a few years.

Yawlboy

Yawlboy wrote: »

The top 10 per cent of air traffic controllers in Ireland earn between €170,000 and €230,000 a year, while the average pay is €160,000.

Glorified factory work.......:rolleyes:

Where did you get that rubbish from ?

Basically what you are saying is that the top 10% earn double their possible wages, how ?

reason vs religion

john kinsella wrote: »

What are my thoughts?...... Well how long do you have?

It is literally doing my head in at the minute. I have been reading up so much on this for months now and still don't know what to be thinking. I read that thread alright and that comment has been stuck in my head ever since.

The whole non paid training is a difficult pill to swallow. I am a little bit older than yourself (early 30s) and whilst I have some savings they certainly wont last very long and we were considering a house purchase this year which would obviously have to be put on hold for a few years.

I am off on holiday for a couple of weeks to I really have to do some soul searching when I am away and see if I can continue with it. It is a job I've dreamed about doing for years but now that it's potentially within reaching distance I just don't know if it will be viable to put my life on hold for a few years.

I don't envy your situation.

For me, I'm willing to undergo any amount of hardship at my age provided I'm happy with the situation ten years from now. And I'm not sure I would be. Three-day weekends are cool (!!) but three in every seven will fall during the week, when friends, partner, etc, are at work - heck, when everyone's at work. I presume shift work wrecks your sleeping pattern, so you'll be up at all hours - I can't imagine you'd just be able to arrive home after intense work and go straight to sleep. Shift work into my fifties is also hugely unappealing and supposedly bad for one's health.

So tempting, yet...

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did you get that rubbish from ?

Basically what you are saying is that the top 10% earn double their possible wages, how ?

ATCO Expert
57,589 - 59,253 - 60,929 - 62,592 - 64,261 - 65,933 -
67,596 - 69,267 - 70,935 - 72,605 - 74,276 - 75,939 -
77,607 - 79,280 - 80,946 - 83,665 - 86,380
Operational ATCO
52,583 - 54,247 - 55,918 - 57,589 - 59,253 - 60,929 -
62,592 - 64,261 - 65,933 - 67,596 - 69,267 - 70,935 -
72,605 - 74,276 - 75,939 -77,607 - 79,280 - 80,946

Apparently shift allowance from what I could find is 27% or a long way from €170,000-€230,000 I suspect that might have been the managers in IAA's HQ quoting their own salary scales. From what I could find that figure was once quoted by MoL during an ATC dispute years ago so its BS.

reason vs religion

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently shift allowance from what I could find is 27% or a long way from €170,000-€230,000 I suspect that might have been the managers in IAA's HQ quoting their own salary scales. From what I could find that figure was once quoted by MoL during an ATC dispute years ago so its BS.

Yeah, controllers on old threads say that the max including shift allowance is somewhere around €110, before overtime and other ways of topping up. And I think the salary scale you quote is old, too. Starts at around €30k now, I think, but without having to repay training costs.

reason vs religion

reason vs religion wrote: »

Yeah, controllers on old threads say that the max including shift allowance is somewhere around €110, before overtime and other ways of topping up. And I think the salary scale you quote is old, too. Starts at around €30k now, I think, but without having to repay training costs.

Yeah 2011 on the document, I can't imagine it's changed much at the top over the recession or we would have heard about it.

Yawlboy

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did you get that rubbish from ?

Basically what you are saying is that the top 10% earn double their possible wages, how ?

http://www.lit.ie/Careers/Job%20Profiles/Air%20traffic%20controller.pdf

Bsal

That document is a bit old 'Students are paid an allowance of
€18,969 per annum' is still quoted in it.

ED E

Just to throw in my 2c from a comp sci perspective:

If you're worried about automation look at possible alternatives you'd consider, most of those well payed vocational careers will be automated much quicker than ATC. As other posters have said its a respected role and transferring in later life shouldn't be too difficult if it happens during your working life.

Shannon Control

reason vs religion wrote: »

Yeah, controllers on old threads say that the max including shift allowance is somewhere around €110, before overtime and other ways of topping up. And I think the salary scale you quote is old, too. Starts at around €30k now, I think, but without having to repay training costs.

It is rising. I was told by somebody in the tower at Dublin that the union have been fighting for it to be raised, and apparently it's been raised almost to 40K very recently.

Presumably, you'll get based in the Shannon HQ if you get past the SCP, where you'll be working all kinds of hours. You could be working a shift staring at 11am, then eventually finishing it with your night shift of maybe 9pm to 7am. So, not pretty from that point of view, but you'll get used to it.

The SCP group stays together in Ballycasey until they start rating courses. At Ballycasey, the group will be split into subgroups after the theory phase. These groups will rotate through modules such as Radar, tower skills etc. Each module takes about 4-5 weeks to complete, then you rotate.

The location of the Rating course is determined by the rating being taken.
Generally you do not get a choice where you go, although in the last SCP I think it was, they put a list together for people to choose Dublin or Shannon, with about 5 places available in Dublin for training. The people at the top of the list (based on interview scores and test scores) get first choice. Dublin would be more appealing to some, no work on Christmas Day, only 1 night shift in their days on, get to live in Dublin (although a few ATCOs in Dublin actually live in Shannon but rent places in Dublin) so you get to pick, but mightn't get your pick, if that makes sense.

There's a small handful doing OTJ in the tower in Dublin right now, who, when finished, will be on 40,000 a year, with shift allowance, living in the capital, and working with fanstastic people, who, on the majority, really enjoy what they do. Some look at it negatively and say that the working hours are crap, pay isn't sufficient for the job, people are always moaning etc. Looking with the glass half-full instead of half-empty will decide if you're happy or not, the job is what you make of it, with a lot of opportunities to do different things. (Become an OTJI after a few years, get on the runway safety team, become an ATCO Expert, work up the ranks to station managers after working for a good few years and many more) So if you look at the positives, it's not a bad job at all, good working conditions, nice people, good pay, good opportunities to do different things, a diverse job and one that, if you don't f*ck up on (!!) will lead you to having it for the majority of your life. Hope that gives you some sort of insight

reason vs religion

Shannon Control wrote: »

It is rising. I was told by somebody in the tower at Dublin that the union have been fighting for it to be raised, and apparently it's been raised almost to 40K very recently.

Presumably, you'll get based in the Shannon HQ if you get past the SCP, where you'll be working all kinds of hours. You could be working a shift staring at 11am, then eventually finishing it with your night shift of maybe 9pm to 7am. So, not pretty from that point of view, but you'll get used to it.

The SCP group stays together in Ballycasey until they start rating courses. At Ballycasey, the group will be split into subgroups after the theory phase. These groups will rotate through modules such as Radar, tower skills etc. Each module takes about 4-5 weeks to complete, then you rotate.

The location of the Rating course is determined by the rating being taken.
Generally you do not get a choice where you go, although in the last SCP I think it was, they put a list together for people to choose Dublin or Shannon, with about 5 places available in Dublin for training. The people at the top of the list (based on interview scores and test scores) get first choice. Dublin would be more appealing to some, no work on Christmas Day, only 1 night shift in their days on, get to live in Dublin (although a few ATCOs in Dublin actually live in Shannon but rent places in Dublin) so you get to pick, but mightn't get your pick, if that makes sense.

There's a small handful doing OTJ in the tower in Dublin right now, who, when finished, will be on 40,000,000 a year, with shift allowance, living in the capital, and working with fanstastic people, who, on the majority, really enjoy what they do. Some look at it negatively and say that the working hours are crap, pay isn't sufficient for the job, people are always moaning etc. Looking with the glass half-full instead of half-empty will decide if you're happy or not, the job is what you make of it, with a lot of opportunities to do different things. (Become an OTJI after a few years, get on the runway safety team, become an ATCO Expert, work up the ranks to station managers after working for a good few years and many more) So if you look at the positives, it's not a bad job at all, good working conditions, nice people, good pay, good opportunities to do different things, a diverse job and one that, if you don't f*ck up on (!!) will lead you to having it for the majority of your life. Hope that gives you some sort of insight

Oh my god, will you atc's not come to a bloody consensus on the merits of your career?! Just when I felt I'd decided... At this stage I'm hoping I don't get it, making the decision for me.

My thinking is that if the majority of controllers are unsatisfied, I don't expect to be the exception. What's more, being an existentialist who's always questioning his place in life, I would expect to be the exception even if everyone were enjoying their job. And the lack of flexibility would seem to aggravate that tendency of mine.

Can I ask you about the alternatives you mentioned? OTJI is an instructor, right? Do many do it? Is it the same shift? I presume runway safety team is a strategic planning group. Would one be involved in that exclusively or alongside fewer hours of control work? What is an ATCO expert? Is it just based on years of experience and what are the benfits?

Can you tell me about the training down in Ballycasey? Is it 9-5? Is there homework other than study? Is it remembered as being a difficult period in an atc's life?!

Thanks

Thargor

Shannon Control wrote: »

There's a small handful doing OTJ in the tower in Dublin right now, who, when finished, will be on 40,000,000 a year, with shift allowance, living in the capital, and working with fanstastic people, who, on the majority, really enjoy what they do. Some look at it negatively and say that the working hours are crap, pay isn't sufficient for the job, people are always moaning etc. Looking with the glass half-full instead of half-empty will decide if you're happy or not, the job is what you make of it, with a lot of opportunities to do different things. (Become an OTJI after a few years, get on the runway safety team, become an ATCO Expert, work up the ranks to station managers after working for a good few years and many more) So if you look at the positives, it's not a bad job at all, good working conditions, nice people, good pay, good opportunities to do different things, a diverse job and one that, if you don't f*ck up on (!!) will lead you to having it for the majority of your life. Hope that gives you some sort of insight

Thats some shift allowance!

Shannon Control

Thargor wrote: »

Thats some shift allowance!

I'll blame it on forgetting my coffee this morning :rolleyes: 40,000 I meant obviously

notharrypotter

reason vs religion wrote: »

Oh my god, will you atc's not come to a bloody consensus on the merits of your career?!
Can you tell me about the training down in Ballycasey? Is it 9-5? Is there homework other than study? Is it remembered as being a difficult period in an atc's life?!

I was told by somebody in the tower at Dublin

From a previous thread its not certain that he actually works in ATC.

Shannon Control

notharrypotter wrote: »

From a previous thread its not certain that he actually works in ATC.

Do I have to know someone who is a controller to be a controller myself? Why are your posts always negative? Not one to judge, just asking.

notharrypotter

Shannon Control wrote: »

Do I have to know someone who is a controller to be a controller myself? Why are your posts always negative? Not one to judge, just asking.

May appear negative, that was not my intent.

The OP is looking for information.
If your source is other than yourself make this clear so they can make an informed decision.

reason vs religion

First they dropped the first-stage apptitude test which was previously part of the recruitment process, and now it seems they've dropped the group interview stage, as I've just got an invite to the "final interview" at IAA headquarters. Why would that be? Numbers down on previous years?

afatbollix

What are the shifts? 12 hours or 8 hours? and how many days on and off? I currently work 5 days on 4 off 12 hour days but only 30 nights a year. Would it be the same or very different?

Cessna_Pilot

Thargor wrote: »

Thats some shift allowance!

Think that's actually the French atc shift allowance. Still not enough :rolleyes::p

reason vs religion

afatbollix wrote: »

What are the shifts? 12 hours or 8 hours? and how many days on and off? I currently work 5 days on 4 off 12 hour days but only 30 nights a year. Would it be the same or very different?

According to a thread from a previous year's recruitment, Shannon has two nights per week while Dublin has one. Shift length varies but averaged about 8 hours. Five days on, three days off.

keredern

reason vs religion wrote: »

According to a thread from a previous year's recruitment, Shannon has two nights per week while Dublin has one. Shift length varies but averaged about 8 hours. Five days on, three days off.

Just curious reason vs religion, did you get offered the role & if so, did you take it?

Very interesting thread.