Why are train stations such a distance from town centres

guylikeme

With the possible exception of Galway, almost every train stop involves a minimum 10 minute brisk walk to anything resembling the town that they are in.

Was this planned? I realise the lines are in some cases hundred + years old

LXFlyer

Well I'd imagine it depended upon land availability.

Remember most towns were already established and built up before the railways arrived.

crusha101

Limerick would also be an exception , All to do with the land available at the time i reckon

whisky_galore

Price of land and in a few cases major landowners influencing the location of stations.

All private companies building and running railways and no early state control, like on the continent.

LeinsterDub

10 minutes is hardly far in fairness

Riskymove

Trains were also a means of transporting freight, animals etc so needed a bit of space/yards etc

thomasj

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

foggy_lad

Back when most railways were built they required large railway yards and buildings because they were all steam powered. There would also have been issues with the alignments and also many town centres ahave been slowly shifting over the years.

Back in the day it wouldn't have been an issue as the train was only used for special occasions to go to Dublin or other big city or to travel down the country visiting. One had to arrive at least 20 minutes before boarding time and there were usually porters scurrying around loading trunks and other goods into the guards van and maybe a mixed freight car. Back then the town centre's were far busier than they are today with many having the mart a central feature. They were just too busy to add a train station and all the required yards sheds and sidings. There are some exceptions of course like Kilkenny Galway Longford Waterford Wexford and some of the smaller stations.

cgcsb

The railways had a military function in addition to a civilian one. The British army used them to get supplies and soldiers around the country. Locating the stations in the centre of towns would've increased the chances of military transports being overrun when they stopped.

Land values and towns already being built up was not an issue. Ireland's economy at the time was entirely based on agriculture so urban land values would probably have been less/the same as good quality farmland.

Even quite wealthy parts of Dublin seen heavy demolition to accommodate the Kingstown to Howth railway, the scars of which you can still see on Amien St and Pearse St. So demolishing properties in small towns to make way for it would not have been an issue in the 19th century.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

I'd imagine the OP is talking about historical established towns rather than more recently developed commuter satellite towns within a city.

cgcsb

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

Blanch is a real shame and now a real mess with impossible commute times. It's not too late though, we could still build a branch railway from Navan Road Parkway, stopping at Connolly Hospital, Blanch Centre, Mulhuddart, Damastown, Clonee and Dunboyne alongside the N3 or on an elevated structure. Of course you'd need electrification and DART underground to provide enough capacity for a frequent DART service, so we're talking well after our life times.

magicbastarder

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

how much would this have added to the cost of the shopping centre, though?
i'd have been a bit dubious about public money being spent specifically to suit a specific private enterprise. and i suspect the cost of the rail link was way beyond what the developers would have been willing to pay.

vicwatson

guylikeme wrote: »

With the possible exception of Galway, almost every train stop involves a minimum 10 minute brisk walk to anything resembling the town that they are in.

Was this planned? I realise the lines are in some cases hundred + years old

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

how much would this have added to the cost of the shopping centre, though?
i'd have been a bit dubious about public money being spent specifically to suit a specific private enterprise. and i suspect the cost of the rail link was way beyond what the developers would have been willing to pay.

The developers could've contributed via a development levy, the developers would hardly be the sole beneficiaries, the travelling public would be getting the best deal.

Del.Monte

vicwatson wrote: »

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Not to mention Dun Laoghaire, Bray, Kilkenny, Cahir and on and on...

n97 mini

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd have been a bit dubious about public money being spent specifically to suit a specific private enterprise. and i suspect the cost of the rail link was way beyond what the developers would have been willing to pay.

The spur to Blanchardstown was proposed at least 20 years before there was a shopping centre built, but if you want to keep your city moving you build necessary infrastructure to bring people where they want to go. The notion that the state shouldn't pay for infrastructure just because there is a private company involved is daft.

whisky_galore

Charleville and Millstreet are two that come to mind are quite a long way (as in a lengthy walk) from the places they are supposed to serve.

magicbastarder

n97 mini wrote: »

The spur to Blanchardstown was proposed at least 20 years before there was a shopping centre built, but if you want to keep your city moving you build necessary infrastructure to bring people where they want to go. The notion that the state shouldn't pay for infrastructure just because there is a private company involved is daft.

as i said, if a rail line was built specifically for the shopping centre, and no further, i'd be dubious about that being done with taxpayer money. would cost tens of millions i would guess, for the infrastructure.

what route was the previously proposed spur going to take? alongside the n3?

McAlban

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

This old chesnut... has been gone over and over again...

During the Forfas study on the future Dart (IN 1975? I believe) there was a Dart line to the planned "Blanchardstown Centre" But that was more of a commuter service to serve population areas rather than the actual shopping centre built 20 years later.

There was a Blanchardstown Station here... https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3825212,-6.3641156,176m/data=!3m1!1e3

(I'm not entirely sure what this existing structure is, nor the one across the canal from it).

Since the Blanch population began to explode, Coolmine and Castleknock were opened in 1990 to serve the population in that area.

Punters in Blakestown and other distant parts of Blanch may not like it, but that's as close as the train line is ever going to get unless Metro West is miraculously resurrected.

Mrs OBumble

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not to mention Dun Laoghaire, Bray, Kilkenny, Cahir and on and on...

And Athenry.


The recently-built Oranmore is a different story, though, and is where it is because the traffic disruption caused by a railway crossing so near the old station site make it impossible to use.

endacl

Back when the railway system was originally laid out, people were neither as lazy or whiney as they are today.

n97 mini

magicbastarder wrote: »

as i said, if a rail line was built specifically for the shopping centre, and no further, i'd be dubious about that being done with taxpayer money. would cost tens of millions i would guess, for the infrastructure.

The state will pay for the all the access roads. Costs are recouped through commercial rates, development levies etc.

magicbastarder wrote: »

what route was the previously proposed spur going to take? alongside the n3?

EDIT: The shopping centre brings in an annual estimated rent of €50 million, and Fingal's ARV is 14.4%, so the annual rates are in the order of €7.2 million.

Rock77

Why are train stations such a distance from towns?

Because they had to put them close to the tracks!

McAlban

n97 mini wrote: »

The state will pay for the all the access roads. Costs are recouped through commercial rates, development levies etc.

EDIT: The shopping centre brings in an annual estimated rent of €50 million, and Fingal's ARV is 14.4%, so the annual rates are in the order of €7.2 million.

Nice what book is that from??

Blanch South and Central would imply they were expecting to one day have a north too. (Damastown? Mulhuddart?)

I think this is from Forfas...

n97 mini

McAlban wrote: »

Nice what book is that from??

http://www.amazon.com/Ireland-Regional-Railway-History-Rowledge/dp/090689963X

12Phase

It's actually not unique to Ireland, you'll find the same pattern in a lot of French cities and towns too.

The cities and towns were there long before the arrival of railway technology. So, there was no way of actually building a station in the town centre without doing massive demolition of buildings or digging tunnels or putting in overpassing bridges.

There's only example of a major tunnel cut through rock to access a city centre : Cork. It's still only getting you a few minutes away from the city centre by foot, but it is a damn sight better than arriving in Blackpool 3km away.

In Europe, a lot of German Cities and the likes of Brussels put their train networks underground and link into major underground intercity stations. That's the kind of thing that requires major investment and disruption.

Also, if you look at the change in technology. Older trains required a lot of support services (water, coal yards etc etc) and were noisy and smelly, producing huge volumes of coal smoke.

And as was pointed out, they were also the main method of moving heavy freight and cattle in the old days. So, they needed big fright yards and often they'd just dual-purpose that with a railway station in midsize towns.

In Dublin, Cork, Belfast and other ports etc etc there were actual freight yards linked to docks and so on but most medium towns didn't have anything like that.

geecee

vicwatson wrote: »

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Waterford's Plunkett train station isn't even in in Waterford county (according to Kilkenny people!)

McAlban

geecee wrote: »

Waterford's Plunkett train station isn't even in in Waterford county (according to Kilkenny people!)

It is, this is a very old myth, it's just on the Kilkenny Side of the River. But that part has been in Waterford before the train station was there.

Carawaystick

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And Athenry.

Athlone, Malahide, Balbriggan, Mullingar, Longford, Arklow also

McAlban

Carawaystick wrote: »

Athlone, Malahide, Balbriggan, Mullingar, Longford, Arklow also

Mind you Rush & Lusk, Skerries, and Drogheda are well outside the town centre, however, this may have been simply because of the needs for aligning the Permanent Way in an efficient manner, avoiding cuttings and embankments and tunnels as much as possible.

I think that probably in a lot of cases, this is the reason the station was located at a distance from the town centre.

hearmehearye

vicwatson wrote:

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Del.Monte wrote:

Not to mention Dun Laoghaire, Bray, Kilkenny, Cahir and on and on...

Tralee and Killarney too.